Borescopes

I agree the Webinars are great. I watch everyone I can. The thing about using the scope or not.
How do you know your engine is not running a valve that is burning uneven or hot untill the engine gives you problems. Scope the engine and find the valve before it becomes a problem and save some money.
I really believe in preventive maintaince to save money later. In a case like this it could be quite a bit of money.
I keep asking every A&P I meet if they have a scope. I have yet to find one. If I was an A&P I would own a scope even if one must pay 8 large to get it. You are only as good as your tools. I spent 5 time this on tools to work on tractors.
 
1600vw said:
I agree the Webinars are great. I watch everyone I can. The thing about using the scope or not.
How do you know your engine is not running a valve that is burning uneven or hot untill the engine gives you problems. Scope the engine and find the valve before it becomes a problem and save some money.
I really believe in preventive maintaince to save money later. In a case like this it could be quite a bit of money.
I keep asking every A&P I meet if they have a scope. I have yet to find one. If I was an A&P I would own a scope even if one must pay 8 large to get it. You are only as good as your tools. I spent 5 time this on tools to work on tractors.
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Seeing a valve that is discolored may lead to a cylinder removal to try to clean it and get it back to burning all one color, only to find the guides are worn out and that is what caused the valve to burn uneven. repairing that cylinder will cost as much as waiting until the compression check shows a leak then overhauling the cylinder.

in that case you lost hours that you could have spent flying that cylinder. and the dollar saving is lost.

Interpreting scope pictures is a very risky, and misleading in most cases for the novice.
 
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How about a show of hands: who here has pulled a cylinder based solely on something visually seen through a borescope or videoscope? That is - a cylinder that was running properly and showed normal compression test results. Because I keep hearing claims that you can detect trouble in this manner before it shows up in normal testing but I personally do not know anyone who pulls jugs based on discoloration seen through a scope.
 
Silvaire said:
How about a show of hands: who here has pulled a cylinder based solely on something visually seen through a borescope or videoscope? That is - a cylinder that was running properly and showed normal compression test results. Because I keep hearing claims that you can detect trouble in this manner before it shows up in normal testing but I personally do not know anyone who pulls jugs based on discoloration seen through a scope.
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+1... When I did my internship with a couple A&P's We did a compression test on a O470 of a Cessna 182. Compression was failing miserably, sent the borescope down and couldn't see anything wrong, the owner wanted us to keep the cylinder on because of the borescope :eek:. Came back a few weeks later because the plane wasn't making correct power, still didn't see the issue with the borescope. Pulled the jug and behold the exhaust valve was misshapen. Borescope did more harm than good in this case.
 
Silvaire said:
How about a show of hands: who here has pulled a cylinder based solely on something visually seen through a borescope or videoscope? That is - a cylinder that was running properly and showed normal compression test results. Because I keep hearing claims that you can detect trouble in this manner before it shows up in normal testing but I personally do not know anyone who pulls jugs based on discoloration seen through a scope.
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I've never done a borescope inspection of a cylinder with out seeing a symptom of some thing wrong with the cylinder before we broke out the scope.

I will agree you can save money by doing the repairs early.
But why would you repair a cylinder that is preforming well?

OK, lets say you have a high oil consumer, you do a compression check and it's a bit low, you borescope it the valves look good, You decide to run it. next oil change you see metal in the oil, you decide to bore scope it again, you see a big groove in the cylinder wall, you pull the cylinder and find a broken ring. now you can try to save the crank by overhauling the engine.

had you pulled the cylinder at first symptom you could have saved the engine overhaul.

Had the engine been equipped with a CHT gauge at each cylinder that would have been a better indicator of troubles long before you had reason to scope it.
 
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So what you are saying is the good people whom do these webinars for us...Don't no ****....
 
The issue with the webinars is that they try to go into a very complex subject very simply. The benefit is that they make the consumer aware of things to ask the A&P, and an educated customer can be a good customer. The negative is the customer doesn't fully understand what's going on, and may be asking for something and wanting to make diagnoses as such.

Overall, I think Mike has done some good work with his webinars. Unfortunately what we see on here, people who've watched a webinar and think they know everything, are a negative side effect. But they probably would think they know everything without the webinar, so there's probably not a terrible amount of harm done.

I've done borescopes before, really it's never prompted me to do or not do something I didn't know anyway by some other piece of diagnostic information - engine monitor, oil consumption, etc.

I am hoping to get well past the 1700 TBO on these new engines, and I think we have a good shot at it.
 
I believe its Mike who is flying his plane 2000 hrs over TBO. I would love to be able to look inside my engine without pulling it apart.
I have purchased a few used airplanes and a scope would have been very handy not just to look into the engine but other places not easy to see on a HB.

H.A.S.
 
1600vw said:
I believe its Mike who is flying his plane 2000 hrs over TBO. I would love to be able to look inside my engine without pulling it apart.
I have purchased a few used airplanes and a scope would have been very handy not just to look into the engine but other places not easy to see on a HB.

H.A.S.
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I'd agree fully, my point is that borescopes aren't be-all-end-alls. Few things are in this business.

Mike has managed to run his engines well past TBO due to a number of factors. He knows his stuff, flies regularly, operates his engines conservatively, and uses all the tools available to him. Being an A&P himself helps tremendously. It also comes down to a knowledge that he will keep his plane until he dies or wrecks it (ie resale value is irrelevant), and so he can make gambles that make sense to some folks but not others.

Of course you can bet he's IRANed about every part on that engine not in the case at least once to make it that long. Being an A&P who does his own work and can afford the downtime helps there, too. For those who have dispatchability as a requirement, perhaps it makes less sense.
 
Ted,
You bring a sense of sanity to this thread as you usually do. I thought the question proposed by the OP was what others were using for looking inside their cylinders. It amazes me how a simple question can bring out the testosterone in so many people. I see the borescope as simply another tool in the tool box to be used to the extent that the A&P wishes.

As for the testosterone, I have much better ways to enjoy it.

Wake up Amerika,

Pitts off.
 
To add my opinion on what should be looked at in a borescope, the obvious things are valve condition/wobble and scored cylinder bores. The other thing I'd look for is condition of the piston to look for any evidence of detonation. It's important to note that Continentals are well known for poor compression and exhaust valve issues. While I've seen that happen on Lycomings, it's less common, and typically low compression on Lycomings seems to mean a bit more. I wish I could put factory Lycoming cylinders on my Continentals - I think then you'd have the best of both worlds!

Tim, you're absolutely right - it's another tool in the box. Nothing more, nothing less.
 
I have them, I use them,

One ONCE they helped me convince a skittish owner not to pull a jug. Compressions were low with a major exhaust valve leak, staking was having no affect on this one, neither did a quick high power run. Scope showed that there was indeed some crap stuck to the valve face. Seeing the picture the owner agreed to let me take it for an extended run, and it came back with a high 70.

However honestly had the owner not been there and had I not had the scope the outcome would have been the same, I'm pretty keen on giving a cylinder every opportunity to pass, but if it fails it fails.
 
One of the most costly mistakes I have ever seen happened to be a bore scope broken in a J-52 compressor. Someone turned the engine over by hand with the scope in the engine. The engine had to be removed and disassembled to get all the pieces out. Total combine cost start to return to service about 3 million.
 
Tom-D said:
One of the most costly mistakes I have ever seen happened to be a bore scope broken in a J-52 compressor. Someone turned the engine over by hand with the scope in the engine. The engine had to be removed and disassembled to get all the pieces out. Total combine cost start to return to service about 3 million.
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Well boroscope enough engines and stuff is bound to happen. 3 Mil seems awful high for a tear down.
 
1600vw said:
So what you are saying is the good people whom do these webinars for us...Don't no ****....
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No one has said that but, as pointed out, there are people who view the webnars or attend the actual seminars and come back feeling beyond better educated, they feel as though they've been enlightened and empowered. Mike has put together a pretty impressive and successful program but you don't trump 30 years of hands on experience by getting locked in an Embassy Suites conference room for a weekend or watching a series of videos on the internet.

The OP asked about borescopes and my first response was that a decent scope like the Olympus IPLEX (even provided a link) would cost somewhere around $10k. I also stated that the cheaper videoscopes, of which I myself own two, are of little utility as far as diagnosing engines goes. I agree they are another tool but I wanted to point out that they are not, by any stretch of the imagination, the be all, end all when it comes to cylinder maintenance and diagnosis.

Things went off the rails when I was accused of giving horrible advice and that I should watch Savvy's webnars. I wasn't aware of the history of that specific poster but have caught on and have ceased responding to his posts. It's just the nature of the beast when it comes to internet forums.
 
Some mechanics around here play this game of throwing road blocks up telling you what you can't do, implying one thing when it's another.......when you call them on it they start equivocating.

Owners who want to control costs, regain some knowledge to regain some control of their maintenance and spending have only one choice and that is to go to the Owners mechanic for advice. Mike Busch.

Examples of where 38 year experienced mechanics will get into your pocket are surrounding TBO on Engines and other parts. OH rather than IRAN on accessories. OH recommendations on one or two weak cylinders rather than RR and IRAN the bad cylinders.

Aviation maintenance has changed in the last 40 years but some mechanics prefer to old lucrative ways over the more proven safe ways.

They might call it being traditional or sticking to the old ways, I call it deceit, corruption and dishonesty.

You want to know where these $20k, $30k and $40k annuals come from? A combination of these traditional mechanics and ignorant owners with more money than brains. Add a twist of safety concern threats and Wammo this mechanic has made his year's tuition for Jr.
 
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I do agree when you have someone whom has no education in the field of mechanics watches one of these webinars then thinks he is joe good wrench, you are right they just touched the surface.

Most people believe if they can hold a wrench they are a mechanic and can work on anything. They can hold a wrench, move it back and forth and remove something. This does not make them a machanic. But ask them and in their minds they are a mechanic.

Now those of us whom have attained some sort of school beyound that of high school to learn the mechanical field all know better.

This is where I fall short, for I believe everyone working on or flying a plane must have atleast the education I have. I forget not everyone has been taught the mechanical field here. I just assume you fly a plane you know how to grind valves, Bore cylinders, Line Bore, Port heads, Phase or time a crank to a cam, stuff like this.

So please forgive me here if I sounded harsh, its my way of thinking sometimes I need to change.
 
Who would pay me 2 hours of shop time to borescope their engine when there are no discrepancies known on the engine.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
Some mechanics around here play this game of throwing road blocks up telling you what you can't do, implying one thing when it's another.......when you call them on it they start equivocating.

Owners who want to control costs, regain some knowledge to regain some control of their maintenance and spending have only one choice and that is to go to the Owners mechanic for advice. Mike Busch.
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Wait, so it's not OK for a mechanic to say one way is the only way, but it is ok for you to say that there's only one way to save money?

I'm smelling something funny here...
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Wait, so it's not OK for a mechanic to say one way is the only way, but it is ok for you to say that there's only one way to save money?

I'm smelling something funny here...
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I was thinking the same thing.

Just like a borescope is one of many tools, individual A&Ps including Mike Busch are just one of many tools and resources available to owners.

I do not agree with everything Tom D says, just like I don't agree with every single thing Ron Levy puts out when it comes to interpreting FARs (not singling anyone out, just using a couple of prolific examples), but since I have been on this board I have learned alot from both of them along with countless others here....just like I have learned from Mike Busch.

As an owner, you need to take it all in....learn as much as you can about your airplane and make educated decisions. Don't just automatically and categorically discount what someone is telling you because it isn't what you want to hear.
 
Good points Fearless, As a non mechanic owner the more I know and understand the better I am able to talk with my A&P with some level of intelligence and that does help me make better informed decisions.

I see that you are in Norfolk. That's my son is stationed are you military?
 
Fearless Tower said:
I was thinking the same thing.

Just like a borescope is one of many tools, individual A&Ps including Mike Busch are just one of many tools and resources available to owners.

I do not agree with everything Tom D says, just like I don't agree with every single thing Ron Levy puts out when it comes to interpreting FARs (not singling anyone out, just using a couple of prolific examples), but since I have been on this board I have learned alot from both of them along with countless others here....just like I have learned from Mike Busch.

As an owner, you need to take it all in....learn as much as you can about your airplane and make educated decisions. Don't just automatically and categorically discount what someone is telling you because it isn't what you want to hear.
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And the important takeaway is that the answer is not the same for everyone.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Just like a borescope is one of many tools, individual A&Ps including Mike Busch are just one of many tools and resources available to owners....
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Absolutely and here are some pertinent examples:

Lycoming will tell you to NEVER operate your engine LOP

Ray Maule will tell you to NEVER wheel land one of their aircraft

I myself, a seasoned A&P/IA mechanic, have a gallon can of Marvel Mystery Oil on the shelf in my hangar

So, as once said by a wise man: Seek out your own salvation with diligence :rolleyes:
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
Examples of where 38 year experienced mechanics will get into your pocket are surrounding TBO on Engines and other parts. OH rather than IRAN on accessories. OH recommendations on one or two weak cylinders rather than RR and IRAN the bad cylinders....
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Being the "38 year experienced mechanic" (at least in this thread) I think you don't know me and therefore it's possible you might just be talking out your a$$.

Tony_Scarpelli said:
You want to know where these $20k, $30k and $40k annuals come from? A combination of these traditional mechanics and ignorant owners with more money than brains. Add a twist of safety concern threats and Wammo this mechanic has made his year's tuition for Jr.
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You got data on that? Because again, as the "traditional mechanic" who's been around and has a wide range of peers I don't know anyone who has been getting $20k, $30k or $40k for annuals.

Who exactly are you talking about?
 
1600vw said:
Someone looking to buy an airplane.
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The only borescope inspections I've ever done with out discrepancies were the NAVY P-3 phase inspections, and they commonly cause good turbines to come off wing because some body thought they saw some thing.
 
Silvaire said:
Being the "38 year experienced mechanic" (at least in this thread) I think you don't know me and therefore it's possible you might just be talking out your a$$.



You got data on that? Because again, as the "traditional mechanic" who's been around and has a wide range of peers I don't know anyone who has been getting $20k, $30k or $40k for annuals.

Who exactly are you talking about?
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I've seen more than a couple poor, certified owners get fleeced like that, usually high performance or twins. Sounds like you need to take a chill pill when you start getting nasty, or just hang out with the few other nasty guys on the forum and the rest of us will ignore you.

It sucks when someone questions a know-it-all. I get it all the time in the construction industry. Funny though, I find I actually don't know it all after 35+years, imagine that, must just be stupid I guess.... Glad you do.
 
aviatingfool said:
I've seen more than a couple poor, certified owners get fleeced like that, usually high performance or twins.
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If that's the case, sounds like they may have bought a "cheap" airplane not realizing all that was wrong with it.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
If that's the case, sounds like they may have bought a "cheap" airplane not realizing all that was wrong with it.
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That can't be…..

It always must be the mechanic's fault.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
You make no sense....you had to stretch that one....
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No he didn't Tony. You've done that in a few threads lately. You don't like it when some people put out advice implying that their way is the only way and yet you often do the same thing. Very rarely is someone 100% right.....on the Internet or otherwise.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
You make no sense....you had to stretch that one....
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No stretching required (I'm terrible at yoga anyway), it was actually a pretty easy observation to make. But go ahead and throw stones if it makes you feel better.
 
Tom-D said:
That can't be…..

It always must be the mechanic's fault.
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"Why did you find that?"
Because you payed me to

"Why do I have to fix that?"
You don't, but you won't get a return to service with out the repair

"Why can't you just (insert random shade tree repair)?"
Find it in the approved manuals or 43.13 and we will talk
 
Ted DuPuis said:
If that's the case, sounds like they may have bought a "cheap" airplane not realizing all that was wrong with it.
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You're absolutely correct in, at least, a couple cases. One of which the same A&P did the pre-buy.........:dunno:
 
aviatingfool said:
You're absolutely correct in, at least, a couple cases. One of which the same A&P did the pre-buy.........:dunno:
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Yep, and that shows there are A&Ps looking to drive up business. We all know that they exist.

But how often do you see people buying a $25k 310B and then have an expensive first annual? About 90% of the time an look at the plane from 20 ft away without a screwdriver in sight and be able to say thatll be an expensive first annual.
 
One of the best usage of a bore scope I know.

Your mufflers need replacing
 

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Yes I use mine for that as well, although in your example it wouldn't be necessary as it can be clearly seen looking straight up the pipe.

Another time mine came in handy was when a buddy pulled a dual magneto off a 172 and dropped one of the rubber half moon drive coupler cushions down into the sump. After draining the oil I used my ProScope to watch as he pushed the cushion aft with a piece of wire fed through the sump drain to a spot where I could grab it with some mechanical fingers fished down the accessory case.

So they do come in handy, that's why I've got one.
 
Fearless Tower said:
No he didn't Tony. You've done that in a few threads lately. You don't like it when some people put out advice implying that their way is the only way and yet you often do the same thing. Very rarely is someone 100% right.....on the Internet or otherwise.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
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Maybe you are missing the sunshine of beautiful San Diego?

You had a thread about wasting your time looking at an engine for your hosed 170. I recommended you consider the STC to upgrade to a Cherokee engine because there are so many more choices to buy them inexpensively. Tom D even posted the STC's available.

It wasn't the only solution to your concern, it was the only one that I had any particular knowledge and I put if forth for your consideration. If you have such trouble with my choice of words maybe I will just ignore your threads and you are welcome to ignore mine.

I speak from a certain perspective....its not the only perspective but it is mine. Agree, do not agree ok I don't really care.

I will always fight against the idea that keeping your maintenance cost down can only be prescribed few only the sorority of licensed mechanics which have a cabal that everyone has to pay canonization too.
 
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