Big choice for learning!

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serfy

Filing Flight Plan
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Drew
I have been reviewing flight schools in my area, Los Angeles, and I've narrowed it down to 2 candidates. My original goal was to get my sport license, but as I've asked around it appears that getting the full thing is not that much more and while I'm at it I might as well go for it. My immediate goal is to be legal as a drone pilot and get my park 33 exemption. Basically I'm putting this entire endeavor on the card and going full force to get this ASAP so I can stop scratching for the low hanging fruit and work on real jobs

Choice #1:
School #1 is at El Monte Airport and called So Cal Flying club. Thier prices are $115 for a DA40 (steam gauges)+ $49 per hour instruction making it $164 per hour. They also have a CTSW for $90 per hour (which would be relevant if I just went for sport flier) making the hourly $139 with instruction. I do like those DA40's. They look much more comfortable, and the guy said they're easier & more fun to fly. Seems like the joystick is more modern. They don't seem to have much of a "program" and it's more up to the student and or instructor to make a curriculum.

Choice #2.
Vista Air Inc. at Whiteman Airfield, Pacoima. They are much closer, have more of a facility and sell equipment, and their block rates for "That '70's plane", a Cessna 172 (steam gauges) is $101 + $35 for the instructor making that hourly $136. They also have a Cessna 162 with a glass cockpit for $121 per hour. Another plus beyond the price is that they're a Cessna Flight center and after talking to another place in Torrance (South bay flyers) he made it sound like the Cessna online program was the way to go. As someone who hasn't been to school in more years then I'd care to admit, and who's attention span has been co-opted by my iphone, studying the FAA dry material wasn't getting me excited and "Interactive" seems like it would stick to my aging brain cells.

So, after all that my question is multiple:

Should I just go for my sport license first, then graduate to the bigger planes. It behooves me to get licensed sooner the later with regard to getting work, or is it a small amount of work to get the full private and be done.

One path would be to go to El Monte (#1) get my sport flyer in the CTSW for $139 ph, then graduate later to the DA40, but then I have to figure out my own path for "interactive learning" but I'm guessing there's got to be something out there comparable to the Cessna course.
The other way is to go to Vista, and go for a private at $121 ph

How does the DA40 compare to the 172 for learning? I did one intro flight in a 172 and it seemed to require some elbow grease to do a sharp turn.

How does the CTSW compare to the 162?

Thanks for listening.
 
Which is better to learn to drive in, a Chevy or a Toyota?

That's what you're asking.

They all fly pretty much the same.

If it were me, I'd fly the cheapest one that can carry me and an instructor within limits.

Glass is utterly irrelevant prior to solo, and unnecessary after. I fly glass when someone else (unca Sam) pays or at least subsidizes, steam otherwise.
 
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Just pick the cheapest one, they are all trainer trikes anyway.


As far as the "programs" just use the king program, you can buy it online no matter what school you choose, it'll save you money from the marked up stuff I see most schools peddling and it's the gold standard.
 
Awesome. Thank you. I agree, cheaper (as long as safe) is better and you've answered that part of my question.

For my immediate goals (flying a drone commercially) a sport licence does the trick, and is the cheapest and quickest route. I would imagine that I should be able to continue on to a private license should I decide that I want to be an airman.

As far as study materials, do you have any knowledge of interactive programs? The Cessna course seemed "comprehensive" as in, congruent to what you've learned in the air that day is what you're studying that night on the computer, and visa versa. But I have to imagine that there's similar programs out there. But in my mind Cessna name carries a lot of credibility and I'd think they'd have the deep pockets to develop a well thought out program so they can ultimately sell more planes.
 
serfy said:
Awesome. Thank you. I agree, cheaper (as long as safe) is better and you've answered that part of my question.

For my immediate goals (flying a drone commercially) a sport licence does the trick, and is the cheapest and quickest route. I would imagine that I should be able to continue on to a private license should I decide that I want to be an airman.

As far as study materials, do you have any knowledge of interactive programs? The Cessna course seemed "comprehensive" as in, congruent to what you've learned in the air that day is what you're studying that night on the computer, and visa versa. But I have to imagine that there's similar programs out there. But in my mind Cessna name carries a lot of credibility and I'd think they'd have the deep pockets to develop a well thought out program so they can ultimately sell more planes.
Click to expand...

Gotcha, getting into the Commerical drone biz, times are a changing eh?

Here's the program you'll want for the written and all things ground.
I've used it with tons of students and never had one fail a written or oral, which is what it preps you for.

http://www.kingschools.com/ground-s...paign=Private Pilot Courses&sco=WB&scu=YSCORP

Work your way through the king program as you work your way through the air work, once you average 80 or better on the practice written you'll be set for the actual written test, read the PTS and know how many hours you need, what maneuvers you will do and what the examiner will expect.
 
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Thanks James. You answered while I was typing.

My conclusion is to go to El Monte (despite doubling the drive) learn the Sport flyer, with the possibility of moving up to the Private down the line. Unless I could get the Sport license in the 172. That's the cheapest hourly.
 
Yeah, I've been doing it for almost 4 years and the only way to make the real money is to be a pilot. Besides the ground knowledge there's pretty much zero relevance, but figure the FAA is putting people in the pipeline and gaining members, plus it creates a little Darwinism.
 
I linked the wrong course, just search in the king site for the sport program.

You should also read up on here about the real time and cost diffrences between the two, might just make more sense to get your PPL, even though it's not required for your use, a US PPL is internationally honored unlike the sport, I don't know if that will mater in your future drone work.
 
Thanks for the link, they're quite the dynamic duo!

So that's the gold standard huh? :)
 
It Looks like John King teaches the Cessna course?
 
You already have some good stuff here. Just another idea, I used Sporty's for practice to pass the written. Here is the link to their sport pilot stuff.

You and me are kind of opposite. I have my PPL, but wouldn't mind getting into the aerial photography stuff via drone either for extra $$$ on the side. I know a guy who does finishing work, and their latest project was filmed by a drone guy in Italy (I believe for the LDS church). My understanding is that the guy got paid quite well for his work.
 
WARNING! WARNING!!

You may want to just be a drone pilot and that might be the only reason you want to get a pilot license but you need to be forewarned about something. There is a high probability that learning to fly while suck you down the rabbit hole and you will not be able to escape. You will become one of us. We are Borg. You will be assimilated. You have been warned.
 
I'm well aware and hoping that once I get working flying multi-rotored contraptions, renting fixed wing contaptions wont be an issue...
 
woodchucker said:
You already have some good stuff here. Just another idea, I used Sporty's for practice to pass the written. Here is the link to their sport pilot stuff.

You and me are kind of opposite. I have my PPL, but wouldn't mind getting into the aerial photography stuff via drone either for extra $$$ on the side. I know a guy who does finishing work, and their latest project was filmed by a drone guy in Italy (I believe for the LDS church). My understanding is that the guy got paid quite well for his work.
Click to expand...

Here is what I know from 4 years of doing this. While the industry would have you believe that flying a GPS enabled drone is "so easy your grandma could so it". While it is fairly easy to fly it around up high away from obstructions, BUT to get effective footage is a gig all together and does take skill, and the balls to turn off the GPS. It will take a while, and you will learn expensive lessons. It's not something you can do causally if you want to be good, and there's A LOT of competition. I get a lot of gigs re-shooting footage by beginner pilots who have no idea about cinematic composition or how to get smooth footage.

http://dronewrx.com/gallery-2/
 
serfy said:
Thanks James. You answered while I was typing.

My conclusion is to go to El Monte (despite doubling the drive) learn the Sport flyer, with the possibility of moving up to the Private down the line. Unless I could get the Sport license in the 172. That's the cheapest hourly.
Click to expand...
While you can take lessons in the 172 and count the hours towards a sport pilot certificate, you can't fly it solo without a medical, plus it wouldn't work for the check ride. So - not much point.

You can however, take lessons / solo / checkride for your private in the 162 or CTSW.

I don't see much value of getting an S.P. ticket then going right on for a P.P. If S.P. meets your needs, fine. But otherwise (assume medical is not an issue) go for the P.P.

Pick the airplane based on cost, pick the instructor based on who seems to work well for you.
 
MAKG1 said:
Which is better to learn to drive in, a Chevy or a Toyota?

That's what you're asking.

They all fly pretty much the same.
Click to expand...
Not sure that's a great analogy. They do the same job, but the GM product is much more likely to crap out on you in the process.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
While you can take lessons in the 172 and count the hours towards a sport pilot certificate, you can't fly it solo without a medical, plus it wouldn't work for the check ride. So - not much point.

You can however, take lessons / solo / checkride for your private in the 162 or CTSW.

I don't see much value of getting an S.P. ticket then going right on for a P.P. If S.P. meets your needs, fine. But otherwise (assume medical is not an issue) go for the P.P.

Pick the airplane based on cost, pick the instructor based on who seems to work well for you.
Click to expand...

I was unsuccessfully trying to say he could get his PPL in a LSA, but I echo what you said on a PPL vs a sport.


Fearless Tower said:
Not sure that's a great analogy. They do the same job, but the GM product is much more likely to crap out on you in the process.
Click to expand...

The Vettes have always been a great product IMO.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Are we going to turn this into one of those "Buy your last plane first" threads?
Click to expand...

Lol, point well taken.


That said I just saw a beautiful 68' 350cu, stick, recently restored for 17k, beats the heck out of a typical first new car honda or corolla type :D
 
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serfy said:
Thanks for the link, they're quite the dynamic duo!

So that's the gold standard huh? :)
Click to expand...

I would not say that King Schools are the gold standard any more than I would say that ASA or Gleim deserve that title. There are many, many programs on the market designed to help you pass the knowledge exam and nothing more.

Things are changing fast, with new devices and procedures popping up almost every day. The FAA is slow to react to most of these changes, but equally slow (or impossible) to change are those training programs provided on CD, in books, etc. That's why ASA offers online updates for their books. Online courses are easier for the provider to change, of course.

Bob Gardner
 
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Drew,

I fly the 162 at Vista and like it, and Vista, a lot. You can train for a Sport Pilot certificate, as well as a Private certificate, in the 162, so the only thing you "lose" by starting with Sport training and then going on to Private training, is the cost of the Sport written and checkride -- i.e., very little.

I trained for my Private certificate in round-dial 172s and like the 162 much much more, even more than the G1000-equipped 172 I got checked out in after getting my Private.

I did my transition training (for the 162) at Vista with Antonio Gonzalez, and I recommend him highly. Robert Illian is another of the CFIs at Vista. I've never flown with him, but a friend of mine has, and my friend speaks highly of Robert.

Don't underestimate the advantage of taking lessons at an airport that's close by. A long drive to and from lessons will be a pain, not something to be disregarded lightly.
 
James331 said:
I linked the wrong course, just search in the king site for the sport program.

You should also read up on here about the real time and cost diffrences between the two, might just make more sense to get your PPL, even though it's not required for your use, a US PPL is internationally honored unlike the sport, I don't know if that will mater in your future drone work.
Click to expand...

That's what I'm debating today. From what I understand, a sport license will realistically take 50-60 hours, and a PPL will take 60-75. Also, the place I'm looking at has a 172 which is $20 cheaper an hour then the sport, because the sport has a glass cock-pit.
 
Lon33 said:
Drew,

I fly the 162 at Vista and like it, and Vista, a lot. You can train for a Sport Pilot certificate, as well as a Private certificate, in the 162, so the only thing you "lose" by starting with Sport training and then going on to Private training, is the cost of the Sport written and checkride -- i.e., very little.

I trained for my Private certificate in round-dial 172s and like the 162 much much more, even more than the G1000-equipped 172 I got checked out in after getting my Private.

I did my transition training (for the 162) at Vista with Antonio Gonzalez, and I recommend him highly. Robert Illian is another of the CFIs at Vista. I've never flown with him, but a friend of mine has, and my friend speaks highly of Robert.

Don't underestimate the advantage of taking lessons at an airport that's close by. A long drive to and from lessons will be a pain, not something to be disregarded lightly.
Click to expand...

Yeah, the proximity of Whiteman is really good for me, (I'm right by Universal). I got the impression from Emily that the Sport took a $600 practical test as well as a written. And the 172 is $20 cheaper an hour so while I'd save money on hours with the Sport, the hourly rate of the 172 kind of mitigates that savings ... coming from a land lubber's position, I do like the idea of flying a newer plane tho. How many hours did it take you to get your Sport?

BTW, thanks everyone for lending your opinions. This is really helping with this decision. The atmosphere on this forum us much less snarky then on ADV (Motorcycle Adventure Riders). You ask a question there, then duck. :)
 
Note that to fly using a 333 exemption, you personally don't have to be a pilot. Only the person operating your drone's controls must be a certificated pilot. It may be cheaper for you to just hire a private pilot to push the joy sticks around.

If you do want to pursue a pilot certificate for yourself, visit www.UAVGroundSchool.com. In addition to teaching you what you'll need to know to legally operate a UAS, it will prep you for the Private Pilot Written Test and provide you with an endorsement to take the test.

Here's a sample lesson:
www.UAV-GroundSchool.com/airport-operations

Enjoy!
 
Lon33 said:
Drew,

I fly the 162 at Vista and like it, and Vista, a lot. You can train for a Sport Pilot certificate, as well as a Private certificate, in the 162, so the only thing you "lose" by starting with Sport training and then going on to Private training, is the cost of the Sport written and checkride -- i.e., very little.

I trained for my Private certificate in round-dial 172s and like the 162 much much more, even more than the G1000-equipped 172 I got checked out in after getting my Private.

I did my transition training (for the 162) at Vista with Antonio Gonzalez, and I recommend him highly. Robert Illian is another of the CFIs at Vista. I've never flown with him, but a friend of mine has, and my friend speaks highly of Robert.

Don't underestimate the advantage of taking lessons at an airport that's close by. A long drive to and from lessons will be a pain, not something to be disregarded lightly.
Click to expand...

What I also liked about Vista over So Cal Flying Club is that they have a facility and seem more established. The only benefit I see for So Cal is they have a CTSW for $90, but even tho thier hourly for instruction is higher, it works out to $139 an hour, where the 162 at Vista is $156, but the 172 is $136 and the low price leader. And I really do like those DA40's from a comfort/wing span stand point. Old Cessna's have zero sexy appeal.

BTW, Does GM make Cessna?
 
write-stuff said:
Note that to fly using a 333 exemption, you personally don't have to be a pilot. Only the person operating your drone's controls must be a certificated pilot. It may be cheaper for you to just hire a private pilot to push the joy sticks around.

If you do want to pursue a pilot certificate for yourself, visit www.UAVGroundSchool.com. In addition to teaching you what you'll need to know to legally operate a UAS, it will prep you for the Private Pilot Written Test and provide you with an endorsement to take the test.

Here's a sample lesson:
www.UAV-GroundSchool.com/airport-operations

Enjoy!
Click to expand...

Awesome, thanks. Tho what I do and what I like to do is be a pilot. It also enables me to work for the companies that are more established and getting those jobs. I've been doing the small stuff and now that everyone with $2K thinks they can pilot a drone, that work has dried up...
 
I started by getting a Private Pilot certificate, training in 172s. A Private Pilot is permitted to fly sport planes, like the 162, without taking an additional written or practical test. All that's necessary is transition training, because sport planes handle a little differently from bigger ones, and because most sport planes have glass panels. So I never needed a Sport Pilot certificate.

The 162 at Vista has a single Garmin G300 panel, so the moving map and all flight and engine instruments are right in front of the pilot. I love the G300. It's much better than round dials, and much much easier to use than the G1000 which is installed in bigger planes including many 172s.

Driving from Universal to Whiteman will be a snap, while driving to El Monte will be much more time-consuming, I think. You should try both drives; and time them, and do them on the days and at the times when you think you'll be taking lessons.

I did my checkride three years ago. My Designated Pilot Examiner (who does checkrides for Vista students too) charged $500, so the cost may have gone up to $600 since then. It's not an insignificant amount of money, but only it's only a slice of what you'll pay for all your training. And you can always decide to skip the Sport certificate after you've started your training, and go directly for a Private, without wasting any time or money on the training you do towards a Sport certificate.

For the written exam, I studied Rod Machado's Private Pilot's Handbook and its companion Workbook (he's written a Sport Pilot book too), and I used the Gleim test prep software.

One last thing. It took me longer -- in hours and on the calendar -- to get my Private than it takes most people, because I began by scheduling lessons just once a week, and many of them were cancelled because of weather or plane maintenance. I didn't actually get my license until after I began scheduling lessons two and three times a week, so despite cancellations, I was still averaging a lesson or two each week. I think my unproductive experience with once-a-week schedules is common. A friend of mine got his Private certificate in four months, despite working during the day and going to school at night, because he scheduled early morning lessons several times a week.

P.S. Cessnas are made by Cessna, not GM. These days, Cessna's real income comes from making and selling biz-jets. It's only prop planes are 172s that now cost $400,000 each, with G1000 panels.

I've flown DA40s and they are nice planes. The ones I flew (I think all of them) have variable-pitch propellers, while Cessna 162s and 172s have fixed pitch props. For training purposes, it means that the DA40 has an extra knob that has to be learned, in order to control the prop's pitch. It's like the difference between a bike without a gear shift, and a bike with a gear shift. But in the DA40, getting the prop pitch correct is more critical than getting a bike's gear correct.
 
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I don't think anyone has pointed out that you can get your PPL in an LSA, so go for the CTSW. You'll have your real, full on PPL, but you will have saved a ton of money.
 
SkyHog said:
I don't think anyone has pointed out that you can get your PPL in an LSA, so go for the CTSW. You'll have your real, full on PPL, but you will have saved a ton of money.
Click to expand...

I think the OP figured that out pretty fast.

It's just not cheaper than a steam gauge 172.

You pay a premium for the electronic bling, and you're barely going to look at it pre solo.
 
Lon33 said:
I started by getting a Private Pilot certificate, training in 172s. A Private Pilot is permitted to fly sport planes, like the 162, without taking an additional written or practical test. All that's necessary is transition training, because sport planes handle a little differently from bigger ones, and because most sport planes have glass panels. So I never needed a Sport Pilot certificate.

The 162 at Vista has a single Garmin G300 panel, so the moving map and all flight and engine instruments are right in front of the pilot. I love the G300. It's much better than round dials, and much much easier to use than the G1000 which is installed in bigger planes including many 172s.

Driving from Universal to Whiteman will be a snap, while driving to El Monte will be much more time-consuming, I think. You should try both drives; and time them, and do them on the days and at the times when you think you'll be taking lessons.

I did my checkride three years ago. My Designated Pilot Examiner (who does checkrides for Vista students too) charged $500, so the cost may have gone up to $600 since then. It's not an insignificant amount of money, but only it's only a slice of what you'll pay for all your training. And you can always decide to skip the Sport certificate after you've started your training, and go directly for a Private, without wasting any time or money on the training you do towards a Sport certificate.

For the written exam, I studied Rod Machado's Private Pilot's Handbook and its companion Workbook (he's written a Sport Pilot book too), and I used the Gleim test prep software.

One last thing. It took me longer -- in hours and on the calendar -- to get my Private than it takes most people, because I began by scheduling lessons just once a week, and many of them were cancelled because of weather or plane maintenance. I didn't actually get my license until after I began scheduling lessons two and three times a week, so despite cancellations, I was still averaging a lesson or two each week. I think my unproductive experience with once-a-week schedules is common. A friend of mine got his Private certificate in four months, despite working during the day and going to school at night, because he scheduled early morning lessons several times a week.

P.S. Cessnas are made by Cessna, not GM. These days, Cessna's real income comes from making and selling biz-jets. It's only prop planes are 172s that now cost $400,000 each, with G1000 panels.

I've flown DA40s and they are nice planes. The ones I flew (I think all of them) have variable-pitch propellers, while Cessna 162s and 172s have fixed pitch props. For training purposes, it means that the DA40 has an extra knob that has to be learned, in order to control the prop's pitch. It's like the difference between a bike without a gear shift, and a bike with a gear shift. But in the DA40, getting the prop pitch correct is more critical than getting a bike's gear correct.
Click to expand...

I do plan on scheduling 3-4 times a week. I want to get this ASAP, and from everything I've heard you retain the knowledge and feel faster when you are more consistent. I did time the drives. El Monte is 25-45 minutes depending on traffic and Whiteman is 15-20 and the only traffic possible is where the 170 hits the 5, so during that time I'd be on the side streets. If Vista had a steam gauged LSA, that'd be the winner hands down! But the 172 @ Whiteman is still the cheapest...easiest.

The pitch control seems like an interesting aspect!

Do smart phones work at altitude? Wouldn't you then have the moving map and a graphic representation of where you are on the planet?

I'm actually starting to wrap my head around this whole thing...
 
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