Big Airline push to Privatize ATC - User Fees

SCCutler

SCCutler

Administrator
Management Council Member
PoA Supporter
Joined
Feb 27, 2005
Messages
17,312
Location
Dallas
Display Name
Display name:
Spike Cutler
A4A - Airlines for America - is aggressively pushing its cost-shifting ATC privatization agenda. They have been "ghostwriting" editorials, including one just published in Crain's New York Business magazine. Here is a link:

http://tinyurl.com/q9nlmze

I am going to be watching for these, would urge that all of you do as well; I have posted my comment in the Crain's article, trying to insert a little bit of factual reality. Carefully considered, well-crafted additional commentary will be helpful. I would urge you all to assist where you can, and to be vigilant for other similar articles, and let us know about them so we can ensure that our voice is heard in the public forums.
 
Last edited:
It never ceases to amaze me how shortsided this would be for the airlines. So they want to chock off their pipeline of future pilots by making GA even more expensive than it already is!

Talk about biting the hand that feeds them:rolleyes:
 
beestforwardspeed said:
It never ceases to amaze me how shortsided this would be for the airlines. So they want to chock off their pipeline of future pilots by making GA even more expensive than it already is!

Talk about biting the hand that feeds them:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

No, they want to have more say in how it's run than they already have. There's already a lot of gamesmanship, this will make it worse.

Anyway, it's what you all want around here right? Smaller government? Or is that only when it's not out if your pocket?
 
PeeGee said:
No, they want to have more say in how it's run than they already have. There's already a lot of gamesmanship, this will make it worse.

Anyway, it's what you all want around here right? Smaller government? Or is that only when it's not out if your pocket?
Click to expand...

No.

It IS out of our pocket! Everytime we fly. Its called the fuel tax! Did you convientently ignore that, or are you ignorant to the fact that you DO pay for ATC everytime the fuel truck comes by??

ATC in an inheriently governmental function (along with the military of course) because it ties directly into interstate commerce, which falls under the feds umbrella.

Why anyone would want to mess up the BEST ATC system in the entire world, in the entire history of aviation, is beyond me!

Sure, it needs to be tweaked here and there, but anyone who thinks that this is a good idea needs to only look to Europe to see what a terrible idea this is.
 
Last edited:
PeeGee said:
No, they want to have more say in how it's run than they already have. There's already a lot of gamesmanship, this will make it worse.

Anyway, it's what you all want around here right? Smaller government? Or is that only when it's not out if your pocket?
Click to expand...

The fuel taxes seem to adequately allocate responsibility for these costs. The airlines burn the most, and pay the most while using the majority of ATC services. Corporate is likely second. Small GA is a token amount and pays accordingly.

Why mess with a system that works? User fees would just add an extra level of complexity on the collection side of things.
 
beestforwardspeed said:
No.

It IS out of our pocket! Everytime we fly. Its called the fuel tax! Did you convientently ignore that, or are you ignorant to the fact that you DO pay for ATC everytime the fuel truck comes by??

ATC in an inheriently governmental function (along with the military of course) because it ties directly into interstate commerce, which falls under the feds umbrella.

Why anyone would want to mess up the BEST ATC system in the entire world, in the entire history of aviation, is beyond me!

Sure, it needs to be tweaked here and there, but anyone who thinks that this is a good idea needs to only look to Europe to see what a terrible idea this is.
Click to expand...

More and more of our federal duties are being contracted out. I work with a couple fed contracts and what I find unpalatable is that the contractors seem more in charge than the fed is. As long as the deliverables are met, the customer, e.g, fed has very little say in how it's done. Lowest bidder, high turn over, constant internal investigations, subpar end products, exorbitant over runs....

And since its contracted, it is damn near impossible to fire them. It can be done, but you should also expect indictments to follow most times.
 
I still find it hard to believe that Congress would give p the power to tax to the Executive.
 
Isn't this why we fork over all that money to AOPA and NBAA?
 
beestforwardspeed said:
No.

It IS out of our pocket! Everytime we fly. Its called the fuel tax! Did you convientently ignore that, or are you ignorant to the fact that you DO pay for ATC everytime the fuel truck comes by??

ATC in an inheriently governmental function (along with the military of course) because it ties directly into interstate commerce, which falls under the feds umbrella.

Why anyone would want to mess up the BEST ATC system in the entire world, in the entire history of aviation, is beyond me!

Sure, it needs to be tweaked here and there, but anyone who thinks that this is a good idea needs to only look to Europe to see what a terrible idea this is.
Click to expand...
So fuel taxes pay entirely for the FAA ATO budget? No, not even close.
It's incredibly naive to sit there and say they're going to outsource something and charge user fees, and then reduce the fuel tax. But hey, it's your fantasy.
Your smaller government dream will come true, at the cost of X amount of dollars per approach!
 
When I tried to access the article I received a dead link page. However, when an organization starts talking about saving their way to balanced budget you can be assured the outsourcing lever gets pulled. It is easy to do and doesn't require a lot of program review and oversight. Privatizing ATC is just a way for the FAA to try to cut budget because they are hemorrhaging money and do not want to take a critical look at the organization as a whole. However, often outsourcing ends up costing more than running it yourself.
 
James331 said:
Isn't this why we fork over all that money to AOPA and NBAA?
Click to expand...

Well, had the Bizjets taken a hit a couple years back (they write off the costs anyway), we would already have the user fee system adopted that excluded GA, much like the system in Europe but allowing even more planes under the fee exemption. But that wasn't good enough for AOPA, so here we are again. People have a fantasy that this issue is going away, not without a major social revolution it's not. We will have user fees, and the longer we fight, the worse it will end up.
 
We already are taxed too much on E V E R Y T H I N G how about we DEMAND more for less, seems like what the private sector sees all the time.
 
Last edited:
Id rather see fuel taxes than toll roads. Aviation fuel taxes rather than user fees also. Privatize everything sucks. They are privatizing toll roads around here and its a frustrating ripoff. Nickle and dimed evry step of the god dam way. Used to be roads in Colorado were all non-toll. Man that was nice. You just paid at the pump. Never even thought about it. Now some mafia company from Jersey runs the freeway...
 
Last edited:
Look, we don't need to be taxed on ANYTHING, we could let natural resources pay for society directly, but we gave control of all the resources to the capital markets in order to make more money out of them. Capitalism is nothing but a revision of feudalism. We could have cheap aviation if the point wasn't to make the most money off it as possible. We've been duped, and in so created a system that has left us no escape.

The entire financial industry is nothing but a vampire on society, producing nothing on its own, and bleeding society dry. But China has a wooden stake for them.
 
Last edited:
Shopshirt said:
When I tried to access the article I received a dead link page. However, when an organization starts talking about saving their way to balanced budget you can be assured the outsourcing lever gets pulled. It is easy to do and doesn't require a lot of program review and oversight. Privatizing ATC is just a way for the FAA to try to cut budget because they are hemorrhaging money and do not want to take a critical look at the organization as a whole. However, often outsourcing ends up costing more than running it yourself.
Click to expand...

Oops. I munged-up the link.

Try: http://tinyurl.com/q9nlmze
 
Last edited:
I hate getting these piddly little bills for this and that. Just include it in the fuel tax for petes sake!
 
Henning said:
Actually, the Australian system makes it pretty simple, you have an Air Services card with an account.
Click to expand...

For how much I'm already taxed, I don't want a card, a account, a fee, I just want to fly around as I like, all I need from the government is a "thank you sir"
 
James331 said:
For how much I'm already taxed, I don't want a card, a account, a fee, I just want to fly around as I like, all I need from the government is a "thank you sir"
Click to expand...

Like I said, you could have it all free of taxes, you just don't want what that requires. I don't really care to hear a bunch of whining crap from the peanut gallery that just wants to sit back, complain, and do the same old thing that causes what they complain about, **** all y'all, it's tiring and exasperating to constantly witness mass self delusional stupidity.
 
Hey, I'm game to just pay for the services I use, just right now I'm paying for 10x the government I need, and year after year I pay more and get less benefit from my money.
 
James331 said:
Hey, I'm game to just pay for the services I use, just right now I'm paying for 10x the government I need, and year after year I pay more and get less benefit from my money.
Click to expand...

And when you were younger, you paid less and got more...:dunno:
 
James331 said:
Hey, I'm game to just pay for the services I use, just right now I'm paying for 10x the government I need, and year after year I pay more and get less benefit from my money.
Click to expand...

Exactly, what AOPA should be pushing for is the repeal or reduction of the gas tax in trade for user fees. THAT would benefit GA and has a good political 'tax cutter' ring to it.
 
My question if they privatize is who is going to finance the infrastructure necessary for ATC. With the costs involved in building and maintaining centers, tracons, towers, radar installations, yada yada yada, what corporation has the resources to do that?
 
Henning said:
Exactly, what AOPA should be pushing for is the repeal or reduction of the gas tax in trade for user fees. THAT would benefit GA and has a good political 'tax cutter' ring to it.
Click to expand...


Meh, it would only be a good deal if it was nation wide, for ALL taxes.
 
PeeGee said:
So fuel taxes pay entirely for the FAA ATO budget? No, not even close.
It's incredibly naive to sit there and say they're going to outsource something and charge user fees, and then reduce the fuel tax. But hey, it's your fantasy.
Your smaller government dream will come true, at the cost of X amount of dollars per approach!
Click to expand...

The fantasy is that it would result in smaller gov't. That NEVER happens. They'd have to create a whole new department to oversee the privatized services, which would likely be larger than the privatized parts.
 
Everyone still on board for mandatory ADS-B? The -B is for billing.
 
Phoenix said:
Everyone still on board for mandatory ADS-B? The -B is for billing.
Click to expand...



Never had been.

But hey, use the word "saftey" and people will sell out their own mothers. :rolleyes2:
 
LDJones said:
The fantasy is that it would result in smaller gov't. That NEVER happens. They'd have to create a whole new department to oversee the privatized services, which would likely be larger than the privatized parts.
Click to expand...

No they wouldn't, LockMart already has a program to step in with I'm sure.:lol:
 
Be funny when they start crying about all the little planes not participating in the system.
 
Actually, at least one major Colorado tollway (E-470 on Denver's north side) has the money going to a Belgian company. One of the top ten most expensive tollways in the USA, at more than 33 cents per mile!

The new tolls on Route 36 are also privatized, but not sure who is running it. It was really snuck by the voters in a way that should not be allowed to happen. Oh, and that road was originally a tollway - but paid off all its debt ahead of schedule. I don't see that happening again...
 
Phoenix said:
Be funny when they start crying about all the little planes not participating in the system.
Click to expand...

That's kinda what ADS-B is about, not having 'a system'. In Aus they make it easy to avoid the system by putting in the 'press of weather' clause for all clearances.
 
I've long moaned about contracting out flight service. For you folks who never had the pleasure of interacting with pre contracted out FSS, they were fully staffed and knew every inch of their airspace. I believe a member here described their father making the go/no go decision based on the look in the briefer's eyes once.

Around this time of year it's a crap shoot to get them to answer the dial line. I took a PIREP last week, dialed the landline number and for the 4th year in a row around this time of year it rang unanswered for 8 minutes. I got relieved, my shift ended, and I called in the icing on 1-800-WXBRIEF. I got a busy message four times before I got through.

We're the lowest paid controllers in the first world, fact. I'd make 2-4 times what I do in BCN and handle the same or less planes.
 
Approach_controller said:
I've long moaned about contracting out flight service. For you folks who never had the pleasure of interacting with pre contracted out FSS, they were fully staffed and knew every inch of their airspace. I believe a member here described their father making the go/no go decision based on the look in the briefer's eyes once.

Around this time of year it's a crap shoot to get them to answer the dial line. I took a PIREP last week, dialed the landline number and for the 4th year in a row around this time of year it rang unanswered for 8 minutes. I got relieved, my shift ended, and I called in the icing on 1-800-WXBRIEF. I got a busy message four times before I got through.

We're the lowest paid controllers in the first world, fact. I'd make 2-4 times what I do in BCN and handle the same or less planes.
Click to expand...

Controllers have to call-in PIREPs??! That right there tells you all you need to know about the inefficiency of the system.
 
LDJones said:
Controllers have to call-in PIREPs??! That right there tells you all you need to know about the inefficiency of the system.
Click to expand...

You would think by now they would be able to straight up enter the data.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top