Bi-curious

[ScottM]

I keep seeing a Waco flying around the neighborhood. I must say the idea of open an open cockpit bi-plane seems like fun. I rode as a PAX once in an open cockpit and had a blast. Is there anywhere where one can go and get some real flight time in one? I am thinking that would be a cool way to get a tailwheel endorsement too!

Do they have any weird flying characteristics?

 

[EdFred]

I had to double check the forum I was on when I saw the thread title!

There's a place on the east side of Michigan that does em in a Pitts.

 

[ScottM]

I had to double check the forum I was on when I saw the thread title!

There's a place on the east side of Michigan that does em in a Pitts.

I have seen instruction in Pitts but I was thinking that may not representative of the species as form what I have heard Pitts fly a lot differently than jsut about every airplane.

 

[Everskyward]

Is there anywhere where one can go and get some real flight time in one?

This is nowhere close to you, but if you are ever in the SF Bay Area there is Attitude Aviation. I have flown the top airplane, well, steered it around the sky for a bit. I didn't take off or land. It isn't anything like a Pitts. They have a nice selection of aircraft there according to the web page.

 

[flyersfan31]

Never flown a tailwheel, so I know what you know.

That being said, a lot of tail-wheel types say the Pitts is a bear to land.

I've read in numerous places that the WACO is a joy to fly.

I suppose I'll just have to say, find a place that'll do WACO checkouts, then let me know so I can go too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[ScottM]

This is nowhere close to you, but if you are ever in the SF Bay Area there is Attitude Aviation. I have flown the top airplane, well, steered it around the sky for a bit. I didn't take off or land. It isn't anything like a Pitts. They have a nice selection of aircraft there according to the web page.

Thanks Mari!

Wow that ain't cheap! I have no trip planes to the bay area this year, but I will keep them in mind, even getting a couple of hours in that would be a blast.

 

[955]

There's a place at Morris that does dual in a Stearman. http://www.blueskyaero.com/aircraft.htm

A tad bit pricey, but it's nearby. By brother-in-law did some there and loved it.

From the link:

Dues - $225.00 / tach hour
Non-dues- $250.00 / tach hour
This 1943 Stearman, like most others, was used as a military trainer during WWII. With the radial engine and open cockpit, you can experience flying as it should be. Give a gift of a Stearman ride to someone special, or go with an instructor and fly it yourself!

 

[ScottM]

There's a place at Morris that does dual in a Stearman. http://www.blueskyaero.com/aircraft.htm

A tad bit pricey, but it's nearby. By brother-in-law did some there and loved it.

From the link:

Dues - $225.00 / tach hour
Non-dues- $250.00 / tach hour
This 1943 Stearman, like most others, was used as a military trainer during WWII. With the radial engine and open cockpit, you can experience flying as it should be. Give a gift of a Stearman ride to someone special, or go with an instructor and fly it yourself!

That is a real good possibility. BTW you ever meet their maintenance guy, Alan Shackleton of THE Shackletons?

 

[955]

That is a real good possibility. BTW you ever meet their maintenance guy, Alan Shackleton of THE Shackletons?

Yep - went to a seminar there with the Vintage Aero crowd my in-laws are in. A real treat - they had a hangar full of torn apart airplanes to drool over.

I used to jump at Morris once in a while when the DZ was open. Always loved that airport, and my in-laws keep a 1939 Fleet 10F biplane out there in the winter. (They live at a fly-in community...too many airplanes, not enough hangar space!)

 

[gismo]

Never flown a tailwheel, so I know what you know.

That being said, a lot of tail-wheel types say the Pitts is a bear to land.

I've read in numerous places that the WACO is a joy to fly.

I suppose I'll just have to say, find a place that'll do WACO checkouts, then let me know so I can go too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My impression is that a Waco is relatively docile when landing but can make it difficult to recover minor mistakes. And a Stearman is just plain easy to land for a big TW airplane. A Pitts or most any other short wheelbase biplane can be a bit more difficult to master. I learned to fly TW airplanes in something similar to an S2B (a Starduster Too) and I think that about doubled the time it took to become comfortable. Airplanes like the Champ, Cub, Citabria, etc. that have longer wheelbases and some visibility over the nose (unless you're real short statured) are quite a bit easier to make the transition in IMO, but if you learn in something like a Pitts you'll be way ahead when you want to try something larger with a wheel on the back end.

 

[Henning]

Never flown a tailwheel, so I know what you know.

That being said, a lot of tail-wheel types say the Pitts is a bear to land.

I've read in numerous places that the WACO is a joy to fly.

I suppose I'll just have to say, find a place that'll do WACO checkouts, then let me know so I can go too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not a very fair statement. It is not a bear to land, but then, it does not land itself either. It will do whatever you ask it to, it will do it precisely and immediately. If you ask it to groundloop, it will.

 

[rottydaddy]

I didn't handle it on the ground at all, but I did get some bonus stick time recently in a WACO in NC when I paid for a ride and there was nobody else to put up front with me. The pilot put the front stick in and let me fly it for most of the scenic flight.

My impression flying it was that flies pretty much like it looks: lotsa power, but very draggy. Very stable and forgiving, but to fly it nicely you have to get your feet programmed to do what it wants. I kept noticing the ball touching the right-hand line... not sure what that was about, but if I just thought about adding a little pressure with my right foot, it was fine.

I tried some Dutch rolls, but found that I'd need a bit more practice in that plane before I could do that smoothly... the timing of stick and rudder movement required was pretty alien to me. It's not quite like any Cessna I've flown, or even the Champ or the J3s I've flown.

It is a lot of fun! Excellent visibility despite the big slab o' wing overhead, and the little windscreen keeps the wind off your face, but not out of your hair. Perfect.

I mostly just tried to keep it straight and level, but when we approached the old lighthouse at Bald Head, I just had to do a tight-ish turn around it. It was pretty sloppy, but I held my altitude (600 feet- weee!!). I took it all the way back to the entry to downwind, then he took over.

The approach and landing showed me how sprightly it can be in experienced hands- he carried just enough power to keep the sink rate under control as he hauled it around in a classic "modified base"- more like a flat "U" than a rectangle, if you know what I mean.
The vis over the nose from the rear cockpit can't be very good, but the wings don't quite block your peripheral vision when landing. He made it look easy; a very good landing.

Good luck finding one used for training... a Stearman is a more likely bet, but even that will probably not be available for solo flight. And, uh, rather expensive... those big radials are extremely thirsty beasts, and the insurance, etc., etc. There's a Stearman near me, dual-only, that goes for $200/hr with the instructor. Not a bad deal, but not cheap, that's for sure.

That won't stop me from flying it this summer... ... but if I were looking to do the tailwheel add-on, I'd shoot for something a little more affordable, and preferably something I could fly solo once I get the nod.

There's a Champ at Clow that's available for solo rental; you might consider that for the tailwheel add-on. Not quite as exciting as an open cockpit, but you can cruise with the window open and your elbow out in the breeze, and they're pretty drafty.
And it's just different enough (from the later-era trikes you're probably most familiar with) that it's still a fun challenge with a little romance to it.
Like hand-propping... can't get more "romantic" than that!
Just be sure to put the white scarf on after you prop it...

 

[ScottM]

It is not so much the tail wheel experience I am looking for, but the open cockpit/2 wing experience that I think would be the most fun.

 

[gprellwitz]

There's a place at Morris that does dual in a Stearman. http://www.blueskyaero.com/aircraft.htm

A tad bit pricey, but it's nearby. By brother-in-law did some there and loved it.

From the link:

Dues - $225.00 / tach hour
Non-dues- $250.00 / tach hour
This 1943 Stearman, like most others, was used as a military trainer during WWII. With the radial engine and open cockpit, you can experience flying as it should be. Give a gift of a Stearman ride to someone special, or go with an instructor and fly it yourself!

They will be giving rides at Clow at the Cavalcade June 7 & 8th, so if you can't make Gastons...

 

[Henning]

It is not so much the tail wheel experience I am looking for, but the open cockpit/2 wing experience that I think would be the most fun.

On a nice day just going for a flight in the country, they are great. I used to even work an open cockpit Ag Cat. However, in the winter (I delivered a Stearman from N.Dakota to Florida in Feb once, never again regardless the pay) it's not as much fun. The main issue though is not the open canopy issue, but the biplane issue. Serious visibility issues. If you are coming into an airfield with an Ag Cat working, you better take the initiative to stay out of their way. Heck, 2/3rds of my row turn would be basically with no reference point. There's nothing really different about flying a biplane either. They don't handle any differently particularly. That said, I would take a WACO with a removeable canopy for hauling rides in and towng billboard banners.

 

[mikea]

It is not so much the tail wheel experience I am looking for, but the open cockpit/2 wing experience that I think would be the most fun.

Next time you're on the left coast (San Diego), go to Palomar and fly the Travel Air at Barnstormers.

 

[billwil]

How about a trip to nice, sunny, Arizona. The place I am training, Chandler Air Service (http://www.aerobatics.com/), actually has several biplanes and various tail draggers. They also do quite a bit of aerobatic training, and it's not too expensive. I think they have a Great Lakes that costs about $165/hr (plus instructor, of course, which is around $50/hr...maybe a bit more for tailwheel/aerobatic). You might want to do this right away, though, or wait until fall...it's pretty hot here in the summer. It is a great place to fly, though.

Good luck...and when you fianally do try it out...keep us updated.

 

[Ghery]

Good luck finding one used for training... a Stearman is a more likely bet, but even that will probably not be available for solo flight. And, uh, rather expensive... those big radials are extremely thirsty beasts, and the insurance, etc., etc. There's a Stearman near me, dual-only, that goes for $200/hr with the instructor. Not a bad deal, but not cheap, that's for sure.

Heck, I paid $200/hr dual in a 172 in Hawaii last year. The Stearman would have been a lot more fun.

 

[rottydaddy]

Heck, I paid $200/hr dual in a 172 in Hawaii last year. The Stearman would have been a lot more fun.

I do like 172s, but man, you ain't whistlin' Dixie... I took one ride in a Stearman some years ago, and it was a blast, even though I didn't get the stick. The pilot did some power-on stalls and steep turns... woohoo! That thing flies like it's on rails, but it seems to have excellent control harmony and will do whatever you want once you learn how.
I'd love to continue my (fragmented) aerobatic training in a Stearman!!