BFR and New Rating Question

[drafttek]

I'm due for a BFR in February. I am currently working on my IFR. It's taking longer than planned due to a myriad of circumstances. Now I know getting the rating will count as a BFR but what if I don't get it by the end of February? Can I continue the training without it, or do I have to do a BFR to continue?

 

[mantakos]

Once your flight review expires, you'll no longer be allowed to act as PIC. As long as your CFII is qualified to act as PIC (medical, flight review, rated, current to carry passengers, endorsements, etc), then you can continue to train, with the understanding that your CFII is acting PIC for your flights.

I think it's less likely, though, that on your instrument checkride, your examiner will be willing to act as PIC.
-harry

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Get your CFII to do what it takes to sign you off. Not that big a deal.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

Get your CFII to do what it takes to sign you off. Not that big a deal.

Ditto. Talk to your CFII--the instrument flight & ground training you've done to date may suffice for a BFR endorsement without any additional time; it all depends on what you've previously covered.

 

[drafttek]

Ditto. Talk to your CFII--the instrument flight & ground training you've done to date may suffice for a BFR endorsement without any additional time; it all depends on what you've previously covered.

So a BFR doesn't have to be some formal checkride type thing then? This is my first one so It's new to me. This is good, one less thing to worry about.

 

[Jeff S KDTW]

So a BFR doesn't have to be some formal checkride type thing then? This is my first one so It's new to me. This is good, one less thing to worry about.

Correct, Doug, it does not need to be ~that~ formal. It just needs to include at least 1 hour ground and 1 hour flight training. Much of this can be done in concert with your IFR training.

61.56
flight review consists of a minimum of 1 hour of flight training and 1 hour of ground training. The review must include:
(1) A review of the current general operating and flight rules of part 91 of this chapter; and
(2) A review of those maneuvers and procedures that, at the discretion of the person giving the review, are necessary for the pilot to demonstrate the safe exercise of the privileges of the pilot certificate.

 

[ScottM]

So a BFR doesn't have to be some formal checkride type thing then? This is my first one so It's new to me. This is good, one less thing to worry about.

Correct, Doug, it does not need to be ~that~ formal. It just needs to include at least 1 hour ground and 1 hour flight training. Much of this can be done in concert with your IFR training.

BFRs are not that big of deal. My last one we covered a bunch of airspace, regulations stuff. It was more of a conversation than an oral review. Then we went up and flew some maneuvers, basic stuff like slow flight stalls, etc. We also did some cross control stalls. I had also requested an IPC so we covered all the stuff that entails as well. But if you have been flying BFRs are not anything to sweat. If you have taken some time off then you may need to work a bit harder. But a BFR is just a review that you are still safe, and up to date on knowledge.

 

[gprellwitz]

See http://www.faa.gov/pilots/training/media/flight_review.pdf for what the FAA is recommending CFIs include in a Flight Review.

 

[KennyFlys]

My opinion is BFR's become critical only if the pilot is not a frequent flyer or is not currently under any kind of training and their procedures and skill subject to scrutiny.

 

[4CornerFlyer]

While you may continue to take instruction without a current flight review, you will not be able to take the instrument check-ride without one, and you are the pilot-in-command for that ride.

Jon

 

[silver-eagle]

Another way to do it is to use your training time to meet your WINGS qualifications (3 hours of specific instruction) then suppliment it with a WINGS qualified seminar. Then you're done and don't have to think about it.

The benefit is you get a nifty set of wings and a frameable certificate. What CFI has done that for you lately?!?!

 

[gprellwitz]

Another way to do it is to use your training time to meet your WINGS qualifications (3 hours of specific instruction) then suppliment it with a WINGS qualified seminar. Then you're done and don't have to think about it.

The benefit is you get a nifty set of wings and a frameable certificate. What CFI has done that for you lately?!?!

But keep in mind that the Wings program in its current format (including the set of wings and the frameable certificate) ends at the end of this year! Last I heard, they didn't have a sponsor for wings for the new program, and you would have to print your own certificate (though you could still frame it, if you want!) Oh yeah, you also have to attend at least one seminar, though that requirement can also be met through a number of online courses as well, such as many of those available through the Air Safety Foundation (www.asf.org).

 

[Dwight B. Van Zanen]

Another way to do it is to use your training time to meet your WINGS qualifications (3 hours of specific instruction) then suppliment it with a WINGS qualified seminar. Then you're done and don't have to think about it.

The benefit is you get a nifty set of wings and a frameable certificate. What CFI has done that for you lately?!?!

This is actually how I STARTED the IR training. Had the seminar done, so scheduled the 3 hours and asked to use some of that to start the IR. Worked fine.

 

[twofivexray]

I was surprised to find out that a CFI checkride and rating does not count as a BFR. At least that is how the Baltimore FSDO sees it. Is that true in other areas?

Roger

 

[Teller1900]

I was surprised to find out that a CFI checkride and rating does not count as a BFR. At least that is how the Baltimore FSDO sees it. Is that true in other areas?

Roger

Yup. Technically it's not a ride for an airman's certificate, so it doesn't count automatically. If you ask the Inspector (or DE, if you can get one) to sign you off for a BFR, though, most of them will.

 

[poadeleted20]

Yup. Technically it's not a ride for an airman's certificate, so it doesn't count automatically. If you ask the Inspector (or DE, if you can get one) to sign you off for a BFR, though, most of them will.

Technically, it is a ride for an Airman Certificate (CFI tickets are Airman Certificates), but not a practical test for a pilot certificate/rating. The actual words in 14 CFR 61.56 are:

(d) A person who has, within the period specified in paragraph (c) of this section, passed a pilot proficiency check conducted by an examiner, an approved pilot check airman, or a U.S. Armed Force, for a pilot certificate, rating, or operating privilege need not accomplish the flight review required by this section. [emphasis added]

Note the phrase "pilot proficiency check," not "practical test." The policy previously espoused by the Flight Standards Service in the no-longer-official Part 61 FAQ file was that since you have to "perform the procedures and maneuvers included in the standards to the COMMERCIAL PILOT skill level" on the CFI practical test, that constituded a "pilot proficiency check conducted by an examiner," and thus the successful completion of a CFI practical test met the requirement of 14 CFR 61.56(d). However, the Flight Standards Service also suggested (that's "should," not "shall") that the applicant obtain a logbook flight review endorsement as well as a Temporary Airman Certificate from the examiner just to make sure.

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.56(d); If the examiner also evaluates the applicant’s piloting skills then yes, “. . . a flight instructor practical test (for initial issuance or a CFI rating addition or for a reinstatement) . . .” would meet the requirements of a § 61.56 Flight Review. However, to make sure the applicant gets credit for successful completion of the Flight Review, the examiner should record that the § 61.56 Flight Review was satisfactorily completed in the applicant’s logbook.

That said, to my knowledge, the FAA Chief Counsel has never officially ruled on the issue, leaving the matter legally uncertain, although perhaps the Baltimore FSDO has recently obtained such a legal ruling. If so, I'd like to see it. In any event, I've never heard of a flight instructor who had no 61.56 square filler other than a CFI practical test within the previous 24 calendar months being busted for failing to meet the 61.56 requirement.

 

[PHXAvi8tor]

Technically, it is a ride for an Airman Certificate (CFI tickets are Airman Certificates), but not a practical test for a pilot certificate/rating. The actual words in 14 CFR 61.56 are:



Note the phrase "pilot proficiency check," not "practical test." The policy previously espoused by the Flight Standards Service in the no-longer-official Part 61 FAQ file was that since you have to "perform the procedures and maneuvers included in the standards to the COMMERCIAL PILOT skill level" on the CFI practical test, that constituded a "pilot proficiency check conducted by an examiner," and thus the successful completion of a CFI practical test met the requirement of 14 CFR 61.56(d). However, the Flight Standards Service also suggested (that's "should," not "shall") that the applicant obtain a logbook flight review endorsement as well as a Temporary Airman Certificate from the examiner just to make sure.



That said, to my knowledge, the FAA Chief Counsel has never officially ruled on the issue, leaving the matter legally uncertain, although perhaps the Baltimore FSDO has recently obtained such a legal ruling. If so, I'd like to see it. In any event, I've never heard of a flight instructor who had no 61.56 square filler other than a CFI practical test within the previous 24 calendar months being busted for failing to meet the 61.56 requirement.

Right on.

You know, for my CFI Initial practical, we did the 61.56 endorsement, anyway, just to be safe, but agreed that it probably wasn't needed. The examiner didn't even look for it ....

 

[Henning]

I'm due for a BFR in February. I am currently working on my IFR. It's taking longer than planned due to a myriad of circumstances. Now I know getting the rating will count as a BFR but what if I don't get it by the end of February? Can I continue the training without it, or do I have to do a BFR to continue?

If you're working with a CFII at the time on your IR, just have them sign you a BFR.

 

[midlifeflyer]

However, the Flight Standards Service also suggested (that's "should," not "shall") that the applicant obtain a logbook flight review endorsement as well as a Temporary Airman Certificate from the examiner just to make sure.

Why would one need to make sure if it definitely counts? I've never heard a suggestion to get a FR endorsement with the commercial certifciate, just to "make sure" that it counts as a FR.

The ultimate point you make is the real one. It's legally uncertain. And, I wouldn't want to be the pilot who didn't get the endorsement because it wasn't needed in Region A and then have my currency questioned after an incident in Region B where the endorsement =is= needed. It may turn out that the nationwide confusion will end up benefiting the pilot in that situation, but who needs the hassle when prevention is soooooooo easy?

 

[poadeleted20]

Why would one need to make sure if it definitely counts? I've never heard a suggestion to get a FR endorsement with the commercial certifciate, just to "make sure" that it counts as a FR.

A Commercial Pilot practical test clearly meets 14 CFR 61.56(d), so any such suggestion for a Commercial Pilot practical test would be absurd. OTOH, despite AFS's no-longer-official policy on point, it is not as clearly black-and-white that a Flight Instructor practical test (which is not as clearly "a pilot proficiency check ...for a pilot ceritifcate, rating, or operating privilege" [emphasis added] even though Commercial Pilot proficiency must be demonstrated to pass the check) meets that requirement.

The ultimate point you make is the real one. It's legally uncertain. And, I wouldn't want to be the pilot who didn't get the endorsement because it wasn't needed in Region A and then have my currency questioned after an incident in Region B where the endorsement =is= needed. It may turn out that the nationwide confusion will end up benefiting the pilot in that situation, but who needs the hassle when prevention is soooooooo easy?

I concur -- it would be a lot easier if someone asked the question of the Chief Counsel's office so a single, reliable, nationwide answer could be promulgated, and then we wouldn't have the old "I don't care what your FSDO says, my FSDO says..." confusion going on around this topic. Sigh. OK, I'll put it in writing to them.

 

[Ghery]

BFRs are not that big of deal. My last one we covered a bunch of airspace, regulations stuff. It was more of a conversation than an oral review. Then we went up and flew some maneuvers, basic stuff like slow flight stalls, etc. We also did some cross control stalls. I had also requested an IPC so we covered all the stuff that entails as well. But if you have been flying BFRs are not anything to sweat. If you have taken some time off then you may need to work a bit harder. But a BFR is just a review that you are still safe, and up to date on knowledge.

I don't think I've done a review with the same CFI twice. Our club's insurance requires the rough equivalent every year and they've always been an opportunity to try something new, or learn a different approach to something. First time my CFI suggested we take the Arrow. First time in a complex. Another time the CFI was all over me for over square operation of the Arrow's engine. I didn't fly with him again. Heck, never mind that it's an OWT, the performance charts for the engine specifically call for it at some power settings. Another time I learned another approach to a power off approach if the engine quits on downwind. Never a dull hour or so. Other than the pressure to get it scheduled or have my access to club planes cut off, I actually enjoy them. Heck, it's an excuse to go fly!