Best taildragger for training

DaleB

DaleB

Final Approach
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DaleB
So I've been considering my options for getting a tailwheel endorsement. So far I have not been able to find anyone around here who offers tailwheel training. I do know a CFI who does TW training, but doesn't have a plane available.

It's got me thinking about the possibility of picking up a tail dragger, getting the endorsement in it, flying it to build time while I finish the RV, then selling it. My criteria would be that it's got to be fairly inexpensive to buy -- say, under 30K for sure, preferably under 25K. I'd prefer a tandem, since I'm not a terribly slim guy; I'm broad shouldered even when I'm in shape. It's got to be big enough to haul my larger self and an instructor -- so let's say 430# of bodies, plus at least a couple hours of fuel.

Once the training is done I'll just be boring holes in the sky with it, building time and having fun until I sell it. I don't care about speed. I don't want to hand prop the engine. Bonus points for good fuel economy (GPH. not necessarily MPG). Even more bonus points if it can at least be safely spun. I'd prefer a stick over a wheel or yoke; tandem over side by side; Lycoming over Franklin.

What would y'all recommend?
 
Citabria or super cub.....either will fill the bill.

Frank
 
BiffJ said:
Citabria or super cub.....either will fill the bill.

Frank
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Won't come close to picking up a Super Cub for under 30K though. Tandems in that price range you're pretty much looking at a beat up J-3 or 7ECA, or a decent Champ.
 
Whatever you get -- you'll have a whole bunch of fun. Some of my best time flying has been in my slow cheap tailwheel. Takeoff, pick a direction, and I just fly. Sometimes I'll turn in another direction. I don't use any maps or nav equipment. I just explore. Eventually I work my way back often times by just locating I-80.

Best of all you don't even think about the hobbs or tach time. You don't care. You're flying almost for free (well, all the costs you already paid for, so you just enjoy it).
 
Art VanDelay said:
Probably a Champ. I think Champs are slightly easier than J-3s.
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Agree that they are easier, but is that the best TD to train in?

I learned in a 170 and found the Champ waaaay easy and much more forgiving.

I am a little partial, but I thought the 170 was a great tailwheel airplane to train in.
 
Citabrias are great.

I've owned two over the years, and gave a lot of tailwheel instruction in each:

1976 7ECA:

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1967 7GCBC:

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I wonder if there are any pilots on this site who might have trained with me in either of these at either Opa Locka or N Perry in S FL?
 
Dale, you need to go visit Diana and take a turn in her airplane.
 
Champs are two easy. You also might want to look at the Hatz.

ehugu6ep.jpg
 
I thought you were talking light sport which is why I mentioned an 85hp champ. I have a lot of time in a 150 hp Citabria and they are GREAT airplanes but much more expensive. Twice the price of a nice 85 hp champ but twice as responsive. To learn in and build taildragger time I'd go with a nice champ. ( I also owned a j3. I've never understood the attraction or the high price they bring. I sold it as I don't like flying anything from the back seat. Truly, to me, an overpriced, boring airplane. Super cub is a whole other story but also very overpriced.)
 
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jesse said:
Whatever you get -- you'll have a whole bunch of fun. Some of my best time flying has been in my slow cheap tailwheel. Takeoff, pick a direction, and I just fly. Sometimes I'll turn in another direction. I don't use any maps or nav equipment. I just explore. Eventually I work my way back often times by just locating I-80.

Best of all you don't even think about the hobbs or tach time. You don't care. You're flying almost for free (well, all the costs you already paid for, so you just enjoy it).
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Now there is a true aviator that loves to fly. :yes:
 
Incidentally.....the eca on barnstormers is one I'd pass on quickly. The engine time tells me the owner is looking to sell before spending possibly 25 grand on a rebuilt engine. It's very high time! In addition, the Eca doesn't perform much better than an 85 hp champ as it's heavier. If I was going to something other than the champ it would be the Citabria 150 GCBC!if I didn't have to fly light sport, or as I mentioned earlier, an f model Luscombe in perfect condition, low time, etc.
 
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IMO, you're better served learning to fly tailwheel in a cub or similar. Citabrias are great airplanes and lots of fun, but you sit in the front seat and have great visibility out the front. There is a beauty in flying a cub with a passenger in the front seat...you can't see squat (including the instruments)...seat-of-the-pants flying at its best!
 
Thanks for the input. Let's see... sorting through all of it...

  • Open cockpit is cool, but absolutely a non-starter for flying in Nebraska in winter... or fall, or spring.
  • While I do want to (and MUST, as I'm building an RV-7 taildragger) learn to fly a TD, I'm not looking to make it any more difficult than necessary as far as ground visibility. The -7 isn't bad.
  • No need whatsoever to stay LSA. I'm grounded until April, but can still log dual time - after that I fully expect to have my medical back.
  • Experimentals are not out of the question, but one in my price range would probably be a distant last place choice for a variety of reasons.
Talked to a local guy today, when I told him my weight he suggested a T6 might be good. :rofl: I told him one reason I didn't learn to fly sooner was we were raising five kids... and I knew I couldn't afford a DC3!
 
Pappy said:
There is a beauty in flying a cub with a passenger in the front seat...you can't see squat (including the instruments)...seat-of-the-pants flying at its best!
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Why not just fly the Citabria from the back seat with a passenger?
 
asechrest said:
My flight school has a Cessna 140A. How are those for taildragger training? (I overhear some of the instructors saying "it's squirrely." No idea what that means.)
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There are no squirrelly airplanes, just squirrelly pilots. Curtis Pitts said that. But some airplanes are a lot more sensitive than others. But the 140 is way on the docile side. Guarantee you anyone who calls a 140 squirrelly has very little tailwheel time.
 
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asechrest said:
My flight school has a Cessna 140A. How are those for taildragger training? (I overhear some of the instructors saying "it's squirrely." No idea what that means.)
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If it is squirrely, it could mean a couple of things. If the CFI's are typically nosedragger pilots with not much tailwheel time, they may think it is touchy. If they are accomplished tailwheel pilots, it COULD mean an alignment problem with the gear.

I find the Cessna 120/140 series a very honest airplane. It would make a good plane to get an endorsement in.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
If I was going to something other than the champ it would be the Citabria 150 GCBC!
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Watch the empty weights on the 7GCBC. The factory used to fudge the weights, I was told. The engine and heavier airframe eat into useful load badly, and if you don't have the heavier struts you're stuck with the original gross weight. We bought one once and during the transition to the Commercial operation I did a weight and balance on it and found that it weighed 114 pounds more than the factory W&B. Some of that was the metal spar and heavier strut upgrade that had been previously done without an amendment (!), but certainly not 113 pounds' worth.

The 7GCBC's handling was more sluggish than the 7ECA. The instructors didn't care for it when aerobatting. The flaps made landings and takeoffs shorter, though.

Champ is more fun, anyway.

Dan
 
Greg Bockelman said:
I find the Cessna 120/140 series a very honest airplane. It would make a good plane to get an endorsement in.
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But can you see trying to shoehorn me and an instructor in the front? There's a reason I've never flown a 152... looks pretty cramped to me. Unless my CFI is this guy.

6740.StickFigure_5F00_Sunglasses.png
 
DaleB said:
But can you see trying to shoehorn me and an instructor in the front? There's a reason I've never flown a 152... looks pretty cramped to me.
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Well, there is that. You and I wouldn't be able to close the doors. :no:;)
 
A 140 Cessna is a very unsquirrley airplane. It has a pretty wide gear and an 85hp engine. It was used a lot for training as it was NOT squirrelly. One must remember that many many current instructors, especially younger ones have very little or no time in tail draggers. They are more at home droning around in a 172 type aircraft. The 140 and the 120 Cessna are underpowered. On a hot day with two occupants and full tanks, take offs can be thrilling unless you have at least 3000 feet of paved. They needed at least an 0200 for power. Nice little cross country airplane, especially if flown alone.
 
I make a decent classic tailwheel instructor -- currently weighing in at 161 lbs.
 
jesse said:
I make a decent classic tailwheel instructor -- currently weighing in at 161 lbs.
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But you still wouldn't want to squeeze into a 140 with me. They'd need a sardine can key and a little fork to get us back out.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
If it is squirrely, it could mean a couple of things. If the CFI's are typically nosedragger pilots with not much tailwheel time, they may think it is touchy. If they are accomplished tailwheel pilots, it COULD mean an alignment problem with the gear.

I find the Cessna 120/140 series a very honest airplane. It would make a good plane to get an endorsement in.
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I think this is probably it. I don't think the 140 gets much use at the school, and I bet that when I'm ready to get my endorsement, there'll be one instructor who's "the tailwheel guy."
 
asechrest said:
I think this is probably it. I don't think the 140 gets much use at the school, and I bet that when I'm ready to get my endorsement, there'll be one instructor who's "the tailwheel guy."
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That would be me, if I were in that business. LOL
 
Citabria, watch which model you buy, there are a couple large ADS on the wooden spar models.

most metal spars are out of the price range
 
DaleB said:
But you still wouldn't want to squeeze into a 140 with me. They'd need a sardine can key and a little fork to get us back out.
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LOL. I know what you're talking about. I'm 150 lbs and I've flown with a few big guys. In fact I got an email yesterday from a guy who's about 300... finding an airplane to work with him in is going to be interesting!
 
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Another option is a 150 taildragger...pretty cool I think. This one looks like a mini 180 with the straight back / tail.
 
Thinking about the J3, not that you would need them, but I'm not crazy about heel brakes (not that coordinated I guess ;)) Citabrias are hard to beat imho.
 
They aren't that bad once you get used to them...and you should only need them for taxi/parking anyway.
 
I've owned one Citabria with toe brakes and one with heel brakes.

From the back seat I preferred the heel brakes - with the toe brakes it was difficult to get full rudder and brake at the same time, due to the way the brake pedal was articulated. The heel brake made it easier.

But neither should disqualify a given plane - one should be able to adjust to either pretty quickly.
 
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