best route thru the rockies

[andybean]

This may have been discussed in the past. Could not find the old post.
Any suggestions for KSNA (Orange County) to KFNL (Fort Collins Co).
I have a Turbo Arrow. Pretty comfortable at 10500 without oxygen.
We will not have Oxygen on board for this little excursion.

 

[NoHeat]

to Albuquerque, then east to the front range, then north?

 

[Fearless Tower]

This may have been discussed in the past. Could not find the old post.
Any suggestions for KSNA (Orange County) to KFNL (Fort Collins Co).
I have a Turbo Arrow. Pretty comfortable at 10500 without oxygen.
We will not have Oxygen on board for this little excursion.

I'd say you are gonna need to go a bit higher than 10.5 to get there. Without really working it out, I would say that your best bet is to go via the Grand Canyon, Grand Junction, then north toward CKW, Medicine Bow then down toward Laramie and then Ft Collins. You can certainly do that without O2, but like I said, I think you'd want to get up to 11.5 in some places.


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[COFlyBoy]

Yep you can't cross the Rockies in Colorado if you want to stay at 10.5 or below. The passes near Denver/Fort Collins are in the 11k+ range.

If you like you can go the northern route along the CO/WY border and stay at 10.5. Or the southern route south of the CO/NM border and stay at 10.5.

You can do La Veta Pass East of Alamosa (KALS), it is only 9400 feet.

 

[andybean]

I'm ok with 11.5 or even 12.5 for short time

 

[Alexb2000]

I agree with the prior routing suggestions. I would give the Eastern limit of the Rockies a little distance when the wind is from the West. Helps avoid all the turbulence coming of the mountains.

I would get a some kind of O2 system, portable, whatever, and be prepared to go high if the conditions require it. I was just hammered pretty good around SAF and had to go 13+ for any relief. As we get closer to summer higher is better. I often end up well above 16 just to make it bearable when the thermals are up.

You have the airplane, why not go high?

 

[COFlyBoy]

I'm ok with 11.5 or even 12.5 for short time

Do you have big mountain training or experience? If the answer is no then go around (North or South are good "get you mountain feet wet" routes).

Lowland pilots who are inexperienced in big montain flying tend to make a mess of our mountains. They tend not to know (or ignore) the standard rules that the locals follow.
1- No Mtn flying at night
2- No Mtn flying if mtn winds are above 25 kts (mtn winds are not the same as the winds in Denver)
3- In the summer, get out of the mountains before noon. (I personally won't fly through them after noon. It downright sucks.)

You turbo takes care of most of the DA issues, but the mountain weather can still get you. Respect it.

 

[BillTIZ]

I had planned from Las Vegas to Page, AZ, Alamosa to La Veta Pass then north to Pueblo.
Snow showers in the Durango area, so I went from Page to Farmington and east towards Taos. I turned north in the valley just before Taos to Alamosa and the La Veta Pass was clear to get through.

I could not get past Taos for clouds and snow at Taos.

There is an AWOS in La Veta Pass at about 10K, so if it is reporting 6K BKN, it's really at 16K MSL. Peaks in the area are about 10,800 MSL, but the railroad and road is about 9K MSL. I had no problems at 12,500. I was flying a T-41B, non turbo.

 

[Skylane81E]

Portable O2 tank and GPS direct a few K above the peaks.

 

[Tom-D]

I-15 out of SoCal, turn east in southern Utah, to Farmington and follow the low country to I-25 and north.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I-15 out of SoCal, turn east in southern Utah, to Farmington and follow the low country to I-25 and north.

That doesn't even make sense...why would fly from SoCal into southern Utah only to fly south again to get to Farmington???

If you go the southern route, there is no reason to go above the south rim of the Grand Canyon.


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[Henning]

This may have been discussed in the past. Could not find the old post.
Any suggestions for KSNA (Orange County) to KFNL (Fort Collins Co).
I have a Turbo Arrow. Pretty comfortable at 10500 without oxygen.
We will not have Oxygen on board for this little excursion.

I go Grand Canyon and aim to Alamosa and get fuel. From there (you only climb from 7700') you climb out to 10'500 again east bound gets you out well above the low ridge out to the Front Range and you can turn North. Best of my recollection that's about as far North as you can go without me recommending O2 until you get up Montana/Idaho/Wyoming, you can get across on the I-90 route pretty low if you have to. I remember under 7k'.

 

[denverpilot]

Andy,

Brian's blog has a decent list of VFR paths and commentary.

http://pilotbrian.blogspot.com/2008/09/vfr-paths-over-rockies.html?m=1

I highly recommend mountain training but you do have reasonable equipment to go up and over.

To give perspective: 10,500' is not above many of the passes. 12,500 is still below 50+ peaks.

If winds are high, go around. Think rocks in a fast-flowing stream. Toss in a leaf and watch it float through the rapids. That's you.

 

[murphey]

Ok, here we go again.

LaVeta Pass - only if winds at the AWOS (assuming it's working) are 15 or less. The road is at 9K, if you're flying at 12.5 (as I do) the peaks are still above you.
High route:
East to ABQ
Follow the Rio Grande north to ALS
Climb to 11.5K over LaVeta Pass to GOSIP
Follow the lowland route from there.

Lowland route:
East to ABQ
NE to TAFOY
to FTI to CIM to GOSIP to PUB to BRK
Contact Springs Approach to get thru Class C (avoid the Zoomies) and get on flight following to avoid the Zoomies and get around Denver Class B.
to HOHUM (if it's not OTS)
go west of KAPA but east of KBJC to NIWOT and you're on the straight in to FNL.

The entire trip is 10.5K

Ambitious?
ABQ to ALS (see above)
Climb to 14.5K thru Poncha Pass into Salida (KANK)
Down to 11.5K
Up the valley and turn NE at Buena Vista (KAEJ) to TERRO to Wilkerson Pass, head
ENE over the ridge, turn North when you get over the ridge and you can descend to 9.5K and get on flight following with Denver (still watching out for the Zoomies)
Drop to 7.5K unless Denver lets you into Class B, go north past KAPA, past KBJC, wave to the folks at Erie and Parkland, watch out for the 1000 ft towers, and into KFNL.




Turbo Arrow? Very handy when DA on the ground at Double Eagle or Ft Collins is 9K!

 

[Jim Logajan]

Just install one of these and fly direct at a nice safe low altitude:

 

[Henning]

Just install one of these and fly direct at a nice safe low altitude:

I don't need fantasy items to do that...

 

[Clark1961]

Turbo Arrow? get O2 and crank it up to 17.5K and go direct. You've got the powerplant for it, may as well use it. Not a lot to worry about. It'll probably get bumpy during the descent to FNL.

Okay, no O2, so do one of the other things folks have suggested. If you're going to take a mountain route, learn a little bit about lenticulars and rotors (if you haven't already). If you use the I-40 route by ABQ to east of the front range, remember that all that air flowing over the Rockies might get just a tad bumpy downwind even though you're 10 or 20 miles out over the plains.

I wouldn't suggest anything but the southern route without O2 unless you go all the way to I-80. If you do go up to I-80 the make a rightish turn at Laramie and head for a point about 15 miles north of FNL. That's not a bad route though it will get bumping over the foothills. Just the way it is up there.

 

[Tom-D]

That doesn't even make sense...why would fly from SoCal into southern Utah only to fly south again to get to Farmington???

If you go the southern route, there is no reason to go above the south rim of the Grand Canyon.


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Because the terrain isn't that high and you need a fuel stop between Vagas and I-25, you can actually turn east from Vagas. if you don't mind jumping the 11,000' bluffs.

look at the sectional, its and easy do with an Arrow. You can do all the terrain direct, but the fuel stops may require some deviation.

 

[Tom-D]

T
If you go the southern route, there is no reason to go above the south rim of the Grand Canyon.

You could also do the north end around by I-15 to Provo, direct Heber City, and direct to Fort Collins and stay off the high county all together.

 

[Henning]

If you don't mind crossing passes down low, you can go up and down in the valleys with your engine and just pop up to above 11,000 here and there to clear. West to east (downwind) it's safe and easy if you just ride the wave right over the passes. Cross on the upwind (typically North) side of big peaks to take advantage of high pressure.

 

[Tom-D]

If you don't mind crossing passes down low, you can go up and down in the valleys with your engine and just pop up to above 11,000 here and there to clear. West to east (downwind) it's safe and easy if you just ride the wave right over the passes.

Don't confuse these guys, winds are dangerous. You can't go above 10,000' with out a turbo. Pilotage can't be done in the mountains.
This is what the Wasatch range looks like at 10k'

 

[Henning]

Don't confuse these guys, winds are dangerous. You can't go above 10,000' with out a turbo. Pilotage can't be done in the mountains.
This is what the Wash range looks like at 10k'

He's got a turbo though, he has the ability to pop up and down, same thing I did in my Riley TN Travel Air. I had O2, but I didn't always use it. Most of my time was spent down along the steep valley walls doing oblique survey. Downwind winds aren't particularly dangerous. The rule to remember in the mountains that will save you more than anything (but you want O2 available) is: 'If you find yourself on a rocket ship ride up going into the wind approaching a ridge, climb with it, when it switches to down, dive out of it.' You can find shelter down low behind massives and then pop up around the corer next to the terrain in the eddy pulling you up. The are dangerous, but they are predictable and have their better spots to cross given VFR (Practically all of the non winter time and most of the winter as well.). I previously said I wouldn't suggest between Alamosa and the I-80/I-90 routes though, but with a turbo plane you have the climb performance at altitude to play the game.

 

[Henning]

You can build a pressurized portable on demand O2 supply sufficient for 35k' for $5-700, probably for 2 people.

 

[Tom-D]

He's got a turbo though, he has the ability to pop up and down, same thing I did in my Riley TN Travel Air. I had O2, but I didn't always use it. Most of my time was spent down along the steep valley walls doing oblique survey. Downwind winds aren't particularly dangerous. The rule to remember in the mountains that will save you more than anything (but you want O2 available) is: 'If you find yourself on a rocket ship ride up going into the wind approaching a ridge, climb with it, when it switches to down, dive out of it.' You can find shelter down low behind massives and then pop up around the corer next to the terrain in the eddy pulling you up. The are dangerous, but they are predictable and have their better spots to cross given VFR (Practically all of the non winter time and most of the winter as well.). I previously said I wouldn't suggest between Alamosa and the I-80/I-90 routes though, but with a turbo plane you have the climb performance at altitude to play the game.

Going up I-15 he needs to do none of that, he can turn NNE at Vagas and do the red rock area with no problems, and it's a beautiful trip.
In the 170 SSE out of St George Ut. (Hanksvill VOR)

 

[Henning]

Going up I-15 he needs to do none of that, he can turn NNE at Vagas and do the red rock area with no problems, and it's a beautiful trip.
In the 170 SSE out of St George Ut. (Hanksvill VOR)

Sure, no worries, I've crossed low across the Southern route.

 

[Tom-D]

Sure, no worries, I've crossed low across the Southern route.

Southern route takes him thru Flagstaff, 7011'

I-15 never gets over 4500.'
He will have 1 ridge to jump west of Fort Collins. and it isn't that high.

If I can jump the Windriver range at 14.300' in my Fairchild with 165 horses he sure as hell can get over the 8k ridge west of Fort Collins.

 

[Henning]

Southern route takes him thru Flagstaff, 7011'

I-15 never gets over 4500.'
He will have 1 ridge to jump west of Fort Collins. and it isn't that high.

If I can jump the Windriver range at 14.300' in my Fairchild with 165 horses he sure as hell can get over the 8k ridge west of Fort Collins.

I'm sure, performance was never an issue, O2 was.

 

[denverpilot]

I'd love to know where this mystery 8,000' ridge near KFNL is.

If you mean I-80 (since I-15 ends at Green River Utah and comes nowhere near Colorado...) ...

The ridge East of Laramie, WY is 9,000'. Not 8,000. That's the lowest point near KFNL.

So he can listen to made up geographical opinions here on PoA or the poster could just go read Brian's web page and look at real charts and descriptions of the routes.

With the turbo, going over with O2 is the simplest. Waste of a turbo to putter along in the bumps down low.

The limiting factor is almost always weather anyway. You pick the route that way most of the time unless you're going to climb above it. If South is getting hit, you go North and vice-versa. If North and South are getting hit and over the middle is clear, you go there.

 

[Anthony]

With a turbo, I am with the others, spend a few bucks and get 02. No problem to go through at 12,500 ft., but the 02 gives you options to go higher, and even at 12,500 ft it will avoid headaches, and potential slower thought process.

I was all over the Rockies at 12.5 in the Tiger when I lived in Denver, without 02. When I go back, it will be with 02.

 

[Tom-D]

If you mean I-80 (since I-15 ends at Green River Utah and comes nowhere near Colorado...) ...

I-15 quits at the Canadian border.

The ridge East of Laramie, WY is 9,000'. Not 8,000. That's the lowest point near KFNL.

And he should be able to get over that with no problems

With the turbo, going over with O2 is the simplest. Waste of a turbo to putter along in the bumps down low.

True.

The limiting factor is almost always weather anyway.

Always.

 

[andybean]

Thanks all for the input. I looked at Brian's Blog and I like the route through Grand Junction-Kremling-Grandby.

I plan on buying an O2 set up today. Appreciate any input here on that.
Looks like the Air King is the best buy. Thoughts??

At this moment, my airplane is in the shop haveing all the hoses replaced. Fuel, oil, and air. All as proactive maintenance. My worry to be honest, is taking the airplane shortly after having the mechanic change out all the hoses. The trip to Fort Collins and Boulder centers around taking my two highschool kids to look at colleges.

My hope is to get an hour or two of flying in by myself prior to leaving next week. But having my family on board after what I consider major maintence worries me.

I suppose if we make it to Grand Junction without issues, it would figure we could get over the pass.

Andy

 

[gkainz]

I'd love to know where this mystery 8,000' ridge near KFNL is.

The ridge East of Laramie, WY is 9,000'. Not 8,000. That's the lowest point near KFNL.

V-287 (ok, kidding ... Highway 287) from LAR to FNL is only 8,200' ...

 

[Wingsofglass]

I fly from Salt Lake City to Fort Collins on a regular basis. I take the I80 (V6) route which is fine in the morning but just too bumpy any other time to be below 12,500 feet and in the summer you need even higher. Also, unless it's IMC (which most of the year mean icing), I'm not a big fan of going to Laramie and then south. This puts you in front of Elk Mountain which seems to make a lot of weather none of which is the good kind. Instead I turn south at Rawlins, go over KSAA and then the BARGR intersection then KFNL. As long as the weather is decent this is a much smother ride and saves a few minutes.

 

[denverpilot]

V-287 (ok, kidding ... Highway 287) from LAR to FNL is only 8,200' ...

The tower along that route is 8243' and you'll be flying at...

Eastbound? 9,500. VFR.

Personally, over a pass or busy route like US-287, I think I'll shoot for the hemispheric rule. Don't care if we're less than 3000' AGL.

Westbound: Go up to 10,500. VFR.

But that's just me. Y'all can do as you please.

Henning is apparently still pulling tree branches and pine needles out of the 310's nacelles.

Yours are caught in those funny strut thingies that are hooked to the wheels of that low-wing bird of yours.

I like a LITTLE glide range if I have to pick which soft trees to hit when the engine quits.

 

[gkainz]

not advocating touch and goes on the semis up and down 287, but ...