Best Material to Provide Protection in a Airplane Crash

airdale said:
That is certainly the advertising claim. From the pix I've seen (like http://i936.photobucket.com/albums/ad208/TheoFly/mooney-roll-cage.jpg) it's small diameter tubing with minimal triangulation. I wouldn't count on it for much...
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I like Mooneys and think they are fine airplanes and yes they are plenty strong but this idea that tubular steel frames are automagically stronger than equivalent aluminum monocoque structures is a general misconception.

In the end it all boils down to weight, the complexity of the assembly and the ease and cost of construction. Let's face it, Mooney's roots are from a line far less sophisticated than say, Beechcraft and although they no longer use wooden wings the design of the latest model isn't exactly from a clean sheet. If Mooney were to eliminate the tubular sub-frame it would have to be compensated for with some elaborate structure that would drive the cost up to a point where they wouldn't be struggling to survive any longer because they would have ceased to exist a long time ago.

Again, I'm not deriding them, they are fantastic airplanes in their own right.
 
The damned plastic balloon bags they ship in every box from Walmart.

Here, I'll give you some .. :mad2:
 
I'll trade you the big box of styrofoam popcorn I get every time I order an oil plug gasket from Aircraft Spruce.
 
ejensen said:
Moonies have a tubular steel cage around the cabin. Very strong as are the wing spars. Has saved folks that would have died. Mooney has never had a in flight break up.

You really should what you are talking about before you spout off.
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Mooney is the entire metal aircraft industry?

Who is talking about breaking up in mid air? Or on the ground? Its about surviving the crash on the ground.

You may want to read up on what Cirrus and Flight Design are up to before 'mouthing off' you don't have a clue what you are talking about or how to articulate it.
 
CTLSi said:
You may want to read up on what Cirrus and Flight Design are up to...
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Maybe and I'm sorry but I just can't get past this - the goofy appearance. It would completely destroy the image I've spent the past 60 years trying to develop. :D

Flight_Design_CTSL_07.jpg
 
ejensen said:
Mooney has never had a in flight break up.
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I know of one. Flew into a thunderstorm. Passenger went out through the bottom of the airplane. Mooney engineers said it took at least 20G to do that.

Dan
 
frfly172 said:
shock absorbing crush seats.
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The FAA now specifies 26G seats for Part 23 aircraft based on a 170-pound occupant.

23.785, 23.562.

Doesn't sound like crush seating to me. The new Cessnas have those seats and they're built like bridges. And heavy. Two or three times the weight of the old ones.

Dan
 
You know I'm pretty sure that long before any metal begins to burn any biological entity in the local vicinity has long since ceased to exist.
 
It's materials, design, and weight (i.e. momentum). Look at the safety record of the DA40 compared to other GA planes. Some of the safety of this plane is the design of the fuel tanks, they are protected in a crash, and has virtually eliminated post crash fires, which are one of the major causes of fatality in a crash.
 
Sac Arrow said:
Sure, not as easily as magnesium but in crumpled sheet form or shredded strips it will. Regardless, just look at the fire damage in a typical airplane crash. Usually the aluminum around the tanks is gone. Not just melted, but burned up gone.
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Horsefeathers. The 20 mil skin around the tanks makes a puddle about the size of a pingpong ball per square foot. You wouldn't even miss it when you towed the plane away, something that small and nondescript. Aluminum sheet/strip will NOT burn in air, no matter how hot you get the igniter.

Jim
 
weirdjim said:
Horsefeathers. The 20 mil skin around the tanks makes a puddle about the size of a pingpong ball per square foot. You wouldn't even miss it when you towed the plane away, something that small and nondescript. Aluminum sheet/strip will NOT burn in air, no matter how hot you get the igniter.

Jim
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Apparently you missed one or two high school science labs.
 

Aluminium
Aluminium will burn in oxygen if it is powdered, otherwise the strong oxide layer on the aluminium tends to inhibit the reaction. If you sprinkle aluminium powder into a Bunsen flame, you get white sparkles. White aluminium oxide is formed.
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In the atmosphere, 21% o2 ,Al does not burn it melts. Im going th bet that Al when it does burn is an endothermic reaction. Magnesium is a different story.
 
Sac Arrow said:
Apparently you missed one or two high school science labs.
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Hmm. Me too than. Show us.

Sleepingsquirrel said:
In the atmosphere, 21% o2 ,Al does not burn it melts.
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Yeah, that.

Now if your high school lab added some oxidizer, then, sure, that's what we've been saying. And if the high school lab is using a crucible of liquid oxygen then, again, show us. :yes: :D
 
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Shove cans of that anywhere you can in the cockpit, behind the instrument panel, cargo area, under the seats, where ever. Impact ruptures the cans and BOOM! You're surrounded by a fire resistant foam cushion.
 
Since nobody else has said it, the best material to prevent injuries in an airplane is:
 

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Sleepingsquirrel said:

Aluminium
Aluminium will burn in oxygen if it is powdered, otherwise the strong oxide layer on the aluminium tends to inhibit the reaction. If you sprinkle aluminium powder into a Bunsen flame, you get white sparkles. White aluminium oxide is formed.
padding.gif
alo2.gif

In the atmosphere, 21% o2 ,Al does not burn it melts. Im going th bet that Al when it does burn is an endothermic reaction. Magnesium is a different story.
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JohnF said:
Hmm. Me too than. Show us.



Yeah, that.

Now if your high school lab added some oxidizer, then, sure, that's what we've been saying. And if the high school lab is using a crucible of liquid oxygen then, again, show us. :yes: :D
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Won't be exothermic, no, but sure I'd be happy to show you. Heck, I'll burn you some steel wool too.
 
jsstevens said:
Since nobody else has said it, the best material to prevent injuries in an airplane is:
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Yes, but when I wander down the aisles of the local aircraft parts emporium saying, "Brains!", people tend to run.

Ron Wanttaja
 
Sac Arrow said:
Won't be exothermic, no, but sure I'd be happy to show you. Heck, I'll burn you some steel wool too.
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YES Steel wool will burn , YES finely ground aluminum will burn.

In the context of the discussion what airplane is constructed of powdered aluminum or steel wool and flies in an O2 rich environment?:D?
 
The soon to be certified Pipistrel Panthera has a titanium crush cage rated to 23g's, air bags, composite construction, and a parachute system. I would rather be in that then any older aluminum plane.

To be honest I think the biggest safety advances coming GA's way are systems similar to what Cirrus is trying in the G5 that go a long way to prevent stalls and exceeding Vne (but have been in commercial planes for years), by computers no allowing pilots to perform maneuvers that put them into stalls that kill. Better fuel management systems that help pilots from doing preventable things like running out of fuel. Systems that prevent accidents are the future of GA safety.
 
drotto said:
The soon to be certified Pipistrel Panthera has a titanium crush cage rated to 23g's ...
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That statement surprised me because titanium is so expensive and hard to work. So I checked. According to this Panthera brochure (http://www.pipistrel.si/en/file/download/249_1089b048b68b/panthera_brochure.pdf) the cage is composite. "The cockpit was never safer - next generation 26G composite energy-absorbing safety cage." There are apparently some landing gear bits that are titanium. I also found a newer brochure, but it does not explicitly state the material used for the cage.

Not a big deal. I was just curious and am sitting around tending some ribs in the smoker so I had time to look.
 
Flight Design's upcoming C4 is among the first modern aircraft to be built using design elements focusing on crash-worthiness. The German government funded research for designs, which incorporate a "safety box" and crumple-zones. Their existing CT line is known for its "egg" or "pod" shape that has proven very effective in protecting the occupants.
http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2014/April/24/Racing-to-a-safer-cockpit
http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=0c899f4e-72a4-4741-a9e2-2cd0c5bbdd51
 
airdale said:
That statement surprised me because titanium is so expensive and hard to work. So I checked. According to this Panthera brochure (http://www.pipistrel.si/en/file/download/249_1089b048b68b/panthera_brochure.pdf) the cage is composite. "The cockpit was never safer - next generation 26G composite energy-absorbing safety cage." There are apparently some landing gear bits that are titanium. I also found a newer brochure, but it does not explicitly state the material used for the cage.

Not a big deal. I was just curious and am sitting around tending some ribs in the smoker so I had time to look.
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Thanks for he double check, I must have misread it. Still the C4 and the Penthara having 26g cages incorporated into the designs as well as all the other new safety feature is all good, and better than 40 year old aluminum planes.
 
Sleepingsquirrel said:
YES Steel wool will burn , YES finely ground aluminum will burn.

In the context of the discussion what airplane is constructed of powdered aluminum or steel wool and flies in an O2 rich environment?:D?
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They all typically carry fuel, which can burn quite hot and sustain otherwise endothermic combustion. That was my point.
 
ejensen said:
Moonies have a tubular steel cage around the cabin.
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airdale said:
http://i936.photobucket.com/albums/ad208/TheoFly/mooney-roll-cage.jpg it's small diameter tubing with minimal triangulation. I wouldn't count on it for much.
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mooney-roll-cage.jpg


I build roll cages for vehicles that are EXPECTED to crash for a living. That is not a roll cage, or a protective structure of any kind. It's a framework to attach the exterior panels to and not much else. Thin, lightweight, and without any kind of bracing or triangulation. That thing would fold up in any kind of impact that might cause even minor injury to the occupant.

If you want to ride in something that will actually save your a$$ in a crash it's gonna look more like this one. Unfortunately these things only fly at very low altitudes for a few seconds at a time. They crash well though.

HHTT001.jpg
 
Two thoughts on this metal fire business:

1) I seem to recall from my Navy boot camp days that we were never to use water on a metal fire. It would just make it worse.

2) What burns in a brake fire? My guess is the combination of excessive heat and magnesium :dunno:
 
CTLSi said:
Mooney is the entire metal aircraft industry?

Who is talking about breaking up in mid air? Or on the ground? Its about surviving the crash on the ground.

You may want to read up on what Cirrus and Flight Design are up to before 'mouthing off' you don't have a clue what you are talking about or how to articulate it.
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Also untrue about inflight break ups. Several of the wooden wing older models had failures later in their life.
 
CTLSi said:
Mooney is the entire metal aircraft industry?

Who is talking about breaking up in mid air? Or on the ground? Its about surviving the crash on the ground.

You may want to read up on what Cirrus and Flight Design are up to before 'mouthing off' you don't have a clue what you are talking about or how to articulate it.
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I only spoke to Mooney nothing else. Did not mention the others.

I mention those things to illustrate the strength of Mooneys.

You mention Mooney and I responded to your statement they were aluminum. I know very little about Cirrus or Flight Designs so didn't pretend to.
 
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