Best kit plane hangout?

jnmeade

jnmeade

Cleared for Takeoff
Joined
Sep 25, 2005
Messages
1,227
Location
Eastern Iowa
Display Name
Display name:
Jim Meade
I'm strongly considering a specific type of homebuilt and would appreciate any hints on where to look for it or discuss it. I'm already a Kitplanes subscriber. This will be flown off a rough farm strip and parked in a machine shed.

These are given:

1. High wing
2. Tail wheel
3. Fast - as fast as the law allows :D
4. Home built, preferably from kit, even more preferably from fast build kit
5. Light Sport qualified
6. Enclosed cockpit, suitable for heater and winter flying
7. Good range, say 4 hour total (counts reserve)
8. Larger than normal cockpit size (my legs are too long for Citabria, e.g.)

Other and "nice to have"
1. Provision for floats or skis
2. Tandem/side-by-side doesn't matter
3. Single place acceptable
4. Big window for hanging out to take pictures
5. Trailerable, towable or detachable wings

Anyway, referals to a good web site are much appreciated.
 
I have no idea on a website to refer you to, but it sounds like the Glasair Sportsman is exactly what you want. I can't recall if it's a light sport (I think it may be just big enough that it's not), but if you can give up on that requirement, the thing has everything else you want. Plus it has a reputation for being able to take off with anything you can fit inside it, and they do have provisions for floats and folding wings making it easy to trailer. Have a look, I know I was impressed with the one I sat in at Osh. I liked it enough that I'd consider it if it otherwise fit my mission profile.
 
I agree with Ted that the Sportsman fits every item on your list EXCEPT that it is not LSA. I think it is setup for minimum of 180hp, and most of them end up with 190 - 210 hp. I hope to build one of these myself someday as if fits my mission perfectly.

Check out the Zenith 701, not very fast, but high wing and LSA. Looks like it would be fast to build also.

http://www.zenithair.com/stolch701/index1.html

Tony
 
Light sport is a deal breaker. I have a medical and am in good health, but I'm not as young as I used to be and it must be light sport. The 701 is not fast enough. I really want the speed.
 
After visiting the American Legend's Cub factory in Sulfur Springs, Texas, I've become rather partial to those birds. They are a beautiful design as is the old classic Cub.

You can get them as full kits, in build assist programs or as a fully certified aircraft. Also, you can get the aircraft certified for either light sport or normal use.

As far as speed, LSAs are limited to 120 KCAS under ISA at sea level which includes Vne. That would put your cruise somewhere between 90 and a 100 KIAS.
 
jnmeade said:
Light sport is a deal breaker. I have a medical and am in good health, but I'm not as young as I used to be and it must be light sport. The 701 is not fast enough. I really want the speed.
Click to expand...

You don't get speed and legal LSA. What I would suggest doing is finding one of the kits that is available with two different wings, an Experimental wing, and E-LSA wing and wig wag on which you use vs. which you claim, and hope they don't notice, or just build both wings.
 
Aw, if you're going to break the regs, just break the regs. You're going to rig the LSA to beyond 120 mph, nobody can stop you.

We just can't help you.
 
Henning said:
You don't get speed and legal LSA. What I would suggest doing is finding one of the kits that is available with two different wings, an Experimental wing, and E-LSA wing and wig wag on which you use vs. which you claim, and hope they don't notice, or just build both wings.
Click to expand...

If you're going to cheat, isn't it cheaper to just print up a medical?
 
wabower said:
If you're going to cheat, isn't it cheaper to just print up a medical?
Click to expand...

No, the medical has an easily traceable serial number and it's forging a federal document. Lot easier (though with the same very very low likelyhood) to get busted and the ramifications are more severe. Better to fly with no medical (an administrative court violation) than a forged one (a felony in US Circuit Court). Most likely no one would ever notice whether the plane itself conforms to LSA.
 
bbchien said:
Aw, if you're going to break the regs, just break the regs. You're going to rig the LSA to beyond 120 mph, nobody can stop you.

We just can't help you.
Click to expand...

If you're going to break reg rather than flex one:rolleyes: you might as well just join a rather large crowd and fly with no medical.
 
KennyFlys said:
As far as speed, LSAs are limited to 120 KCAS under ISA at sea level which includes Vne. That would put your cruise somewhere between 90 and a 100 KIAS.
Click to expand...
Not Vne, but rather Vh (maximum cruising speed, level flight, full power, sea level). My Zodiac's Vne is 140 knots. Gliders do have a 120 knot Vne limit for LSA.

I see 110-117 KTAS in cruise, depending on altitude.
 
jnmeade said:
5. Light Sport qualified
Click to expand...
The LSA kits I know of come in two flavors: high wing slower STOL aircraft, or low wing 120-knot cruisers. The 601/650 Zodiac is the latter; the 701 and new 750 are the former. Similar dichotomies are found from other manufacturers. I think you're probably going to have to look over your list of requirements and pick which is more important (and you've already said LSA is a must).
 
jmaynard said:
Not Vne, but rather Vh (maximum cruising speed, level flight, full power, sea level). My Zodiac's Vne is 140 knots. Gliders do have a 120 knot Vne limit for LSA.

I see 110-117 KTAS in cruise, depending on altitude.
Click to expand...
I've gotta wonder where the limits on yours fall into play on this (in red):

SECTION 6. LIGHT-SPORT CATEGORY AIRCRAFT AIRWORTHINESS CERTIFICATIONS​

121. GENERAL INFORMATION. A special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category is issued to an aircraft that meets the definition of LSA, is manufactured to the applicable consensus* standard, and is one of the following five classes of the LSA category: airplanes, gliders, powered parachutes, weight-shift-control aircraft (commonly called trikes), and lighter-than-air aircraft (balloons and airships). When the aircraft meets all the eligibility requirements of §§ 1.1 and 21.190, it may be issued an airworthiness certificate in the LSA category. Excluded from obtaining a special airworthiness certificate in the LSA category are gyroplane aircraft, transitioning ultralight-like vehicles, and light-sport kit aircraft, which may receive an experimental purpose for operating LSA as addressed in section 8 of this order. *​

a. Definition.
As defined in § 1.1, a light-sport aircraft is an aircraft other than a helicopter or powered-lift that since its original certification has continued to meet the following:​

(1) A maximum takeoff weight of not more than 660 pounds (300 kilograms) for lighter-than-air aircraft; 1,320 pounds (600 kilograms) for aircraft not intended for operation on water; or 1,430 pounds (650 kilograms) for aircraft intended for operation on water.​

(2) A maximum airspeed in level flight with maximum continuous power (VH) of not more than 120 knots calibrated airspeed under standard atmospheric conditions at sea level.​

(3) A maximum never-exceed speed (VNE) of not more than 120 knots calibrated airspeed for a glider.

(4) A maximum stalling speed or minimum steady flight speed without the use of lift-enhancing devices (VS1) of not more than 45 knots calibrated airspeed at the aircraft’s maximum certificated takeoff weight and most critical CG.

(5) A maximum seating capacity of no more than two persons, including the pilot.​

(6) A single, reciprocating engine, if powered.

(7) A fixed or ground-adjustable propeller, if a powered aircraft other than a powered glider.

(8) A fixed or auto-feathering propeller system, if a powered glider.

(9) A fixed-pitch, semi-rigid, teetering, two-blade rotor system, if a gyroplane.

(10) A nonpressurized cabin, if equipped with a cabin.

(11) Fixed landing gear, except for an aircraft intended for operation on water or a glider.

(12) Fixed or repositionable landing gear, or a hull, for an aircraft intended for operation on water.

(13) Fixed or retractable landing gear for a glider.
Click to expand...
http://rgl.faa.gov/regulatory_and_guidance_library/rgorders.nsf/0/1ba6ee60e8779bd7862572c90063c0ac/$FILE/Order%208130.2f%20incorp%20with%20chg%203.pdf

Ron?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
You might consider a 601 with a tail wheel.

I would strongly sugggest you not break the law. It is crap like that that will mess up the LSA for everyone else.
 
KennyFlys said:
I'm confused where it doesn't apply under subsection (a) of definitions.
Click to expand...
uhmm

(3) A maximum never-exceed speed (VNE) of not more than 120 knots calibrated airspeed for a glider.
 
jesse said:
uhmm

(3) A maximum never-exceed speed (VNE) of not more than 120 knots calibrated airspeed for a glider.
Click to expand...
I didn't intend to color that line.

I do have a question of what is the published Vh for his plane?
 
There is none in any of the books I've seen, aside from the fact that it meets the LSA standard and so is at or below 120 knots. This isn't uncommon; I'd never heard of Vh before the LSA rule was adopted.
 
jmaynard said:
The LSA kits I know of come in two flavors: high wing slower STOL aircraft, or low wing 120-knot cruisers.
Click to expand...

This gets at the heart of my question. I'm hoping someone can help me find the high wing that will perform at the top of the LSA legal speed envelope. I assumed that as the LSA market developed someone might have come up with that design.
 
I'm building the kit version of Jay's plane. Let's say I can turn the prop at a max of 3500 RPM and at that speed I get some number greater than 120 Knots. Some engine setting <3500 RPM is going to be Vh and I will be LSA legal.

Jim... The Cessna will probably be in the neighborhood.
 
wabower said:
If you're going to cheat, isn't it cheaper to just print up a medical?
Click to expand...

I let me medical lapse a month or two (inadvertent mental lapse) and I was taken off the AOPA "Approved Pilots List" (or something like that). I found this out after flying an RV-6 I was delivering after a sale. The buyer had searched my name to see if I was a pilot. Very embarrassing. Anywho, the records are computerized anyone can find this out in a hurry based on your name only if you have a valid medical.

......... and yes, you would be forging a federal document. Not a good retirement plan.B)
 
Jabiru makes a big 2 seater ('cause it's a 4 seater in Australia) that is (LSA) fast. Ooops, just saw your tailwheel restriction. If it helps, I flew a 182 in and out of the Idaho backcountry with no problems whatsoever.

Henning, you sure know your way in and around the regs!:eek:

http://www.usjabiru.com/j230.html

And if you're looking for kitplane info, I assume you've joined EAA? That would be the place to go.
 
Last edited:
jnmeade said:
This gets at the heart of my question. I'm hoping someone can help me find the high wing that will perform at the top of the LSA legal speed envelope. I assumed that as the LSA market developed someone might have come up with that design.
Click to expand...

It's really a kind of tough deal due to weight restrictions, no C/S prop and the horsepower required to make the plane both climb hard and go 120 in level flight. If you want the fat wing to go fast, you need a bunch of horsepower, if you want the thin wing to to get off quick and climb hard, you need a bunch of horsepower. A bunch of horsepower uses a bunch of fuel, a bunch of fuel is heavy. The plane you want would have to carry enough fuel (weight) that it would be single seated.
 
A thought, but it would require you to do some design work, and that would be to create a variable airfoil using leading edge slats.
 
Henning said:
It's really a kind of tough deal due to weight restrictions, no C/S prop and the horsepower required to make the plane both climb hard and go 120 in level flight. If you want the fat wing to go fast, you need a bunch of horsepower, if you want the thin wing to to get off quick and climb hard, you need a bunch of horsepower. A bunch of horsepower uses a bunch of fuel, a bunch of fuel is heavy. The plane you want would have to carry enough fuel (weight) that it would be single seated.
Click to expand...

I think I'm OK with a thin wing, I just want a rugged undercarriage suitable for rough strips. I'm willing to go 2 seats min fuel or 1 seat full fuel, that is OK.
 
Henning said:
A thought, but it would require you to do some design work, and that would be to create a variable airfoil using leading edge slats.
Click to expand...

Way over my head. I can fly them and think I can build one from a kit but design is way beyond my ability and interest.
 
jmaynard said:
Not Vne, but rather Vh (maximum cruising speed, level flight, full power, sea level). My Zodiac's Vne is 140 knots. Gliders do have a 120 knot Vne limit for LSA.

I see 110-117 KTAS in cruise, depending on altitude.
Click to expand...
Actually, Jay, that should read "Max. continuous power" - as stated by the engine mfg.
 
jnmeade said:
I think I'm OK with a thin wing, I just want a rugged undercarriage suitable for rough strips. I'm willing to go 2 seats min fuel or 1 seat full fuel, that is OK.
Click to expand...

Thing is rough fields, with the exception of some paved runways I've been on:eek:, are typically short, so the combo of thin wing and low horsepower leave you needing longer runways.
 
Henning said:
A thought, but it would require you to do some design work, and that would be to create a variable airfoil using leading edge slats.
Click to expand...

The leading edge slats from the "John Doe's" airfoil would go onto many other more high speed airfoils with minimal work...
 
Every LSA kit manufacturer I talked to at Oshkosh said they had to slow their LSA aircraft down to meet the regs:rofl:
 
Don Jones said:
Every LSA kit manufacturer I talked to at Oshkosh said they had to slow their LSA aircraft down to meet the regs:rofl:
Click to expand...

I heard that, too, but was in a hurry and didn't follow up on tail wheel types, the older pattern like the Cub, to see if held true with that style. In looking online, I'm getting the impression that kind of plane is still down around 100 knots and I'd really hoped for something that was more like 110-120 knots. I may have to reevaluate my preferences.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top