Bend the rules or not

brien23

brien23

Pattern Altitude
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Brien
How many shops look the other way on small things. If a shop has the reputation of everything has to be legal with no room for the gray area would they stay in business. If you look hard enough you can find something wrong with any plane sometimes you don't have to look very hard.
 
I think it's a case by case basis. Obviously on older airplanes and cheaper airplanes people expect a little flexibility. In my opinion the only way to run an aviation business is by the books and letter of the law. There is too much at risk not to have all the basics covered.
 
Grum.Man said:
I think it's a case by case basis. Obviously on older airplanes and cheaper airplanes people expect a little flexibility. In my opinion the only way to run an aviation business is by the books and letter of the law. There is too much at risk not to have all the basics covered.
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Define "Basics"
 
I would rather use a facility that followed the rules than a shop that embraced “gray areas”.
 
Pretty sure there is a long history of posts detailing what happens when you listen to Tom-D. Including airplanes crashing into trees when the engine he rebuilds quits or when doing a compression check and the owner of the plane gets injured or....
 
Vance Breese said:
"gray area" was in the original post.
What is your point Tom?
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My point? simply keep you aircraft in an airworthy condition, any thing above and beyond that is the owner's requirements.
There isn't an owner here that would be happy if their A&P-IA tacked on shop rate for nit picky discrepancies.
many of the terms used here are very vague---->so ?
 
ircphoenix said:
Pretty sure there is a long history of posts detailing what happens when you listen to Tom-D. Including airplanes crashing into trees when the engine he rebuilds quits or when doing a compression check and the owner of the plane gets injured or....
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Yer right .. I'm not perfect. are you?
 
bradg33 said:
I wouldn't do business with a shop or A&P that didn't take a "practical" or common sense approach to certain aspects of aircraft maintenance.
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How about the A&P who will note the discrepancies and discuss the repairs, decide if the discrepancies is airworthy or not and if it can be deferred ?
 
ircphoenix said:
Pretty sure there is a long history of posts detailing what happens when you listen to Tom-D. Including airplanes crashing into trees when the engine he rebuilds quits or when doing a compression check and the owner of the plane gets injured or....
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That's a cheap shot, has nothing to do with the OP. If your going to make personal attacks go someplace else most of us do not like that.
 
Tom-D said:
My point? simply keep you aircraft in an airworthy condition, any thing above and beyond that is the owner's requirements.
There isn't an owner here that would be happy if their A&P-IA tacked on shop rate for nit picky discrepancies.
many of the terms used here are very vague---->so ?
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I feel the title of the thread is clear Tom.

I suspect the original poster had something specific in mind.

I would not use a facility that “bent” the rules.

I was being polite by using the term “gray area” from the original post.

The FARs are open to interpretation.

I have no desire for a semantics debate so I will absent myself from the thread.
 
brien23 said:
That's a cheap shot, has nothing to do with the OP. If your going to make personal attacks go someplace else most of us do not like that.
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When it is posted on a public forum for all to see and comment on it is not a personal attack. I thought it was rather tongue in cheek.
 
The term Bent the rules does not mean break the rules the term gray area does not mean over the line, it's a judgement call.
 
Going to the A&P is like going to your Doctor. Some things are serious and should be addressed immediately, some things can wait a little while, some things can kill you and some things are only an inconvenience. What is needed is judgement, discussion, options, and a plan.
 
brien23 said:
That's a cheap shot, has nothing to do with the OP. If your going to make personal attacks go someplace else most of us do not like that.
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Thanks Brien, but I think your thoughts are lost on that one, he has no concept why I post these mistakes here, all anyone like that can see is the mistake, not the chance to teach others.
 
If my A&P finds an airworthiness issue, he fixes it then tells me about it and sends me an invoice. I suspect he does that because that is what I want him to do.

But if he finds minor maintenance items that are not air-worthiness issues, he always calls me first to discuss.
 
JOhnH said:
If my A&P finds an airworthiness issue, he fixes it then tells me about it and sends me an invoice. I suspect he does that because that is what I want him to do.

But if he finds minor maintenance items that are not air-worthiness issues, he always calls me first to discuss.
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Many of my customers operate on a shoe string, I always give them a chance to say "not this month". If your A&P-IA thought your engine needed to be overhauled, would he just go ahead and do it?
 
Tom-D said:
Many of my customers operate on a shoe string, I always give them a chance to say "not this month". If your A&P-IA thought your engine needed to be overhauled, would he just go ahead and do it?
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Every time I start to feel sorry for you and defend you against the idiots, you say something stupid like that. Responses like that are why real, productive conversations are impossible on a forum like this. Of course he wouldn't rebuild the engine without consulting me.
 
Tom-D said:
Thanks Brien, but I think your thoughts are lost on that one, he has no concept why I post these mistakes here, all anyone like that can see is the mistake, not the chance to teach others.
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You post them so you can then tell everyone why everyone else is wrong. You never admit culpability or remorse for anything you do. There's always an excuse.

Then you belittle and berate others for not doing things as you do them. It is kind of your claim to fame.
 
ircphoenix said:
You post them so you can then tell everyone why everyone else is wrong. You never admit culpability or remorse for anything you do. There's always an excuse.

Then you belittle and berate others for not doing things as you do them. It is kind of your claim to fame.
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Which is why I avoid discussions with him.
 
Tom-D said:
Many of my customers operate on a shoe string, I always give them a chance to say "not this month". If your A&P-IA thought your engine needed to be overhauled, would he just go ahead and do it?
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Wait a minute... Really?

Suppose a customer comes in for annual and you find intermittent zero compression on one cylinder with the compression escaping out the exhaust. You would sign off the annual and let him defer that? What happens when the valve sticks on takeoff?

Would you sign off a low oil pressure reading and hope it doesn't spin a bearing before he gets to it?

Suppose you find metal shavings in the oil filter.

"Always" is a really big problem in this context. There are some problems that really can't be deferred, shoestring or not.
 
Follow and operate in those "gray areas" long enough and you'll find yourself in front of the judge. Half jobbing work or trying to cut corners will surely bite you in the rear eventually. I wouldn't want to touch any aircraft that comes out of a shop like that.
 
With an airplane there are no gray areas,they are green areas. It's cheaper in the long run to fix the little items in the gray area,as they are needed,as opposed to letting them build up. Pay me now or pay me later,but your going to pay.
 
Norman said:
Which is why I avoid discussions with him.
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Which is why I intentionally call him out on stupid statements and ask him ridiculous questions like he does to others. It is kind of fun to see what happens.
 
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Here a gray area, how about your mechanic takes the cowl off and sees your certified plane, now has its exhaust ceramic coated.

To me, that's a little bit of a gray area.

Now on the flip side, if you have a cylinder which is on its last leg, super low compression, valves have more wiggle than a drunk stripper, yeah, that needs to get addressed.
 
MAKG1 said:
Wait a minute... Really?

Suppose a customer comes in for annual and you find intermittent zero compression on one cylinder with the compression escaping out the exhaust. You would sign off the annual and let him defer that? What happens when the valve sticks on takeoff?

Would you sign off a low oil pressure reading and hope it doesn't spin a bearing before he gets to it?

Suppose you find metal shavings in the oil filter.

"Always" is a really big problem in this context. There are some problems that really can't be deferred, shoestring or not.
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First things first, I do not run a FBO or have people bring their aircraft to me for annuals. I go to my customers hangar to do the annual. So the aircraft can set until the owner can afford to do the repairs I deem unairworthy.
I do not believe any of my customers would fly their aircraft when I tell them it needs to be repaired prior to flight.
I have several A&P owners, they are the only ones I would consider signing off the annual as un-airworthy and allow them to repair and return to service.
 
James331 said:
Here a gray area, how about your mechanic takes the cowl off and sees your certified plane, now has its exhaust ceramic coated.

To me, that's a little bit of a gray area.
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Nope not Not when the paper is right. It is either a authorized part or it is not.
 
Joshuajayg said:
Which is why I intentionally call him out on stupid statements and ask him ridiculous questions like he does to others. It is kind of fun to see what happens.
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What stupid statement was made here?
Some one says their A&P would just go ahead and repair discrepancies? and I ask if he would overhaul his engine? and now it is me who makes stupid statements. Yeah Right. typical response from this page.
 
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