Beginner Aerobatics

[redtail]

I went up in a Super Decathlon yesterday for an hour. This was my first time in a tail wheel, first time flying with a stick and first time banking more than 45*

I really enjoyed it! Had a blast! I made some common beginner mistakes while practicing primary and aileron rolls. Subconsciously releasing stick pressure, rolling out too early, etc. Need more practice

The instructor showed me two loops and by the completion of the second one, my head and stomach did not agree anymore

I'm almost sure that had I eaten before the flight, it would have come back up

We pulled a total of 3Gs.

Question: Is it safe/wise to take Dramamine to cope with this until my body builds a tolerance or is this something I'm just going to have to deal with?

I'm really looking forward to more lessons and getting my Tail wheel endorsement

 

[PBristolJr]

Eat before you fly aerobatics, nothing worse then going up on an empty stomach!
I wouldn't take dramamine, just keep going up. If you feel sick go back to S&L for a couple minutes, and keep the air vents OPEN!

 

[Henning]

Nope, no Dramamine, you'll get over it in a bit. Don't do a lot of back to back maneuvers especially snap rolls (that's what would get me green) and as soon as it's not feeling right, done with aerobatics for at least 15 minutes. Heck, if each of your aerobatics lessons for now is only 20 minutes so be it. Most people acclimate reasonably well and it sounds like you will too as people who won't wouldn't have made your first lesson. The good thing about short lessons/flights is you can afford greater frequency which is what you are looking for.

 

[redtail]

Ok thanks. Yeah he said something about a light breakfast (bowl of cerial, bagel,etc).
I'd only had a cup of coffee and a bottle of water.

What would be the downside of Dramamine? dozing off

After that second loop, I told him what I felt like and he had me just fly around a bit, which was cool. That's a very nice plane and I love flying the stick, feels much smoother than the Skyhawk.

So how long do you guys think it will take to get past the sick feeling? I'm ready for more fun in this plane.....then start spin training

 

[Seanaldinho]

I built a tolerance to Gs and such in a few 30 minute flights.

 

[Henning]

Dramamine is a major slow down for most people. Bagel with peanut butter and banana (tastes the same both directions, avoid chunky PB so you don't end up with a peanut chunk in your sinuses) a good hour before flying and make sure you are well hydrated. Dehydration always escalates motion sickness and vice versa, it's a bad cycle that is easiest just prevented by maintaining good hydration through the day.

 

[redtail]

Dramamine is a major slow down for most people. Bagel with peanut butter and banana (tastes the same both directions, avoid chunky PB so you don't end up with a peanut chunk in your sinuses) a good hour before flying and make sure you are well hydrated. Dehydration always escalates motion sickness and vice versa, it's a bad cycle that is easiest just prevented by maintaining good hydration through the day.

Oh ok. I thought eating anything at all would be a bad idea but I guess not.

I went up pretty early in the morning and I wasn't really hungry. It was weird when i felt it coming on because I've never been sick in an airplane before. My only experience with motion sickness was on a cruise ship

Thanks for the tip.

 

[Henning]

Oh ok. I thought eating anything at all would be a bad idea but I guess not.

I went up pretty early in the morning and I wasn't really hungry. It was weird when i felt it coming on because I've never been sick in an airplane before. My only experience with motion sickness was on a cruise ship

Thanks for the tip.

Coffee is a general no-no before aerobatics as well. If you're doing lessons early, might want to wait until after for you morning coffee.

 

[redtail]

Coffee is a general no-no before aerobatics as well. If you're doing lessons early, might want to wait until after for you morning coffee.

yeah I kinda figured that...after the fact. It's just that I'm hooked on the stuff, but yes next time I'll wait til after the flight.

 

[jstro]

Question: Is it safe/wise to take Dramamine to cope with this until my body builds a tolerance or is this something I'm just going to have to deal with?

I'm really looking forward to more lessons and getting my Tail wheel endorsement

I'm going to have to leave the medical question to Dr. Bruce or those who know better about than I do. But I got sick really easily when I started aerobatic training and I wondered if I would ever get over it. I did, it got better and you'll develop more tolerance to it as time goes on. I think part of getting used to it is that you begin to focus more on ground targets for lining up your maneuvers and more actively look around instead of getting focused on the aircraft itself, which can lead to nausea.

Remember your breathing techniques, do stay hydrated and keep your blood sugar up with a recent meal. I went up in a Super D last night for an hour and had a great time as well, doing a lot better with the g's than I was expecting (it has been a couple months).

 

[redtail]

Thanks for the tip John,
Yeah I guess the empty stomach and cup of coffee wasn't a good idea

 

[ebetancourt]

when I was going through AF pilot training, I had some problems. Went to the Flight Surgeon, and he said:

Do not fly on an empty or super full stomach,
No coffee, no carbonated drinks

That worked for me.

 

[Henning]

Thanks for the tip John,
Yeah I guess the empty stomach and cup of coffee wasn't a good idea

Actually, with an empty stomach sloshing a cup of coffee around, I think you'll do just fine in the future lol.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

Dramamine is a major slow down for most people. Bagel with peanut butter and banana (tastes the same both directions, avoid chunky PB so you don't end up with a peanut chunk in your sinuses) a good hour before flying and make sure you are well hydrated. Dehydration always escalates motion sickness and vice versa, it's a bad cycle that is easiest just prevented by maintaining good hydration through the day.

I bought the "less drowsy" Dramamine over the weekend and it said 24 hour dose adults take 1 or 2. We were out on very rough seas all day off the coast of Bodega Bay and the ship went up and down so high we started taking on water. I have never been seasick in my life but thought "why not, it says I won't get drowsy!"

BIG MISTAKE. I passed out below (there is a couch in the galley area or whatever it is called) with severe seas. If I slept through bumping my head on the couch / ceiling / becoming weightless you know the stuff is evil. My BF was up top with the captain fishing and he passed out sitting up at the wheel. The rest of the day both of us could barely keep our eyes open.

Next time I'll take 1 or none or try the 4 hour stuff. I didn't get sick but had spent all day on rough seas 6 months ago in a tiny boat and never got sick. So no idea why I even bothered. Never again dude, never again.

Dramamine is evil.

 

[flygirl34q]

It was surprising to me when Diana took me for a ride in her Citabria last fall at Gaston's and said before we went that it was always better to have something (she handed me a little bag of Goldfish crackers) in your stomach than not. We had a lot of fun... I could really get hooked on it too!

 

[redtail]

Actually, with an empty stomach sloshing a cup of coffee around, I think you'll do just fine in the future lol.

yeah I had the coffee and a bottle of water on my drive to the airport

 

[redtail]

when I was going through AF pilot training, I had some problems. Went to the Flight Surgeon, and he said:

Do not fly on an empty or super full stomach,
No coffee, no carbonated drinks

That worked for me.

I'll keep that in mind. Sometimes I find myself substituting coffee for food!

Don't drink much soda but I'm addicted to the java beans

 

[redtail]

I bought the "less drowsy" Dramamine over the weekend and it said 24 hour dose adults take 1 or 2. We were out on very rough seas all day off the coast of Bodega Bay and the ship went up and down so high we started taking on water. I have never been seasick in my life but thought "why not, it says I won't get drowsy!"

BIG MISTAKE. I passed out below (there is a couch in the galley area or whatever it is called) with severe seas. If I slept through bumping my head on the couch / ceiling / becoming weightless you know the stuff is evil. My BF was up top with the captain fishing and he passed out sitting up at the wheel. The rest of the day both of us could barely keep our eyes open.

Next time I'll take 1 or none or try the 4 hour stuff. I didn't get sick but had spent all day on rough seas 6 months ago in a tiny boat and never got sick. So no idea why I even bothered. Never again dude, never again.

Dramamine is evil.

wow! I better stay away from it then. Wouldn't want to get drowsy at the top of a loop
Crazy thing, I've only been sea sick on my first cruise. Never any issues in the air until the loops. I thought I had a strong stomach...yeah right

I don't even wanna think about outside loops anytime soon!

 

[redtail]

It was surprising to me when Diana took me for a ride in her Citabria last fall at Gaston's and said before we went that it was always better to have something (she handed me a little bag of Goldfish crackers) in your stomach than not. We had a lot of fun... I could really get hooked on it too!

Yes the instructor mentioned crackers also. You're right, it was a lot of fun. I think I could get hooked also! That Super Decathlon was nice! I don't even wanna get back into a skyhawk after that flight

I want one!!!

I'm definitely doing my tail wheel endorsement in it and get some more aero exposure.

 

[acropilot]

I would say no to the dramamine as well. It is very common on your first few acro rides to be a little (or a lot) uneasy.

Definitely eat something before you fly, as you learned 1st hand, nothing is in your stomach almost worse than too much (almost). Generally eat non greasy meals and try to eat about an hr before your flight to give you time to adjust. Also, hydration is extremely important, so plenty of good old H2O is a must (or gatorade, etc...).

As many have already said, you will adapt with time. During your training, fly until you start to feel uneasy then call it quits as far as the aerobatics are concerned... if you start to feel better after a few minutes, head to the pattern and work on the tailwheel stuff.

One other thing, make sure you follow your instructor's tips on where to look in the maneuvers. This will help you learn to orient yourself earlier and aid in your ability to fly acro for longer durations. Overall, stick with it, you get used to the maneuvers and will have a blast tearing up the skies.

 

[redtail]

I would say no to the dramamine as well. It is very common on your first few acro rides to be a little (or a lot) uneasy.

Definitely eat something before you fly, as you learned 1st hand, nothing is in your stomach almost worse than too much (almost). Generally eat non greasy meals and try to eat about an hr before your flight to give you time to adjust. Also, hydration is extremely important, so plenty of good old H2O is a must (or gatorade, etc...).

As many have already said, you will adapt with time. During your training, fly until you start to feel uneasy then call it quits as far as the aerobatics are concerned... if you start to feel better after a few minutes, head to the pattern and work on the tailwheel stuff.

One other thing, make sure you follow your instructor's tips on where to look in the maneuvers. This will help you learn to orient yourself earlier and aid in your ability to fly acro for longer durations. Overall, stick with it, you get used to the maneuvers and will have a blast tearing up the skies.

Thanks. You know something that I realized after the fact...I didn't really look to my right at the land like he told me to during the loop! I guess I got rapped up in the excitement of it and just plain forgot or didn't process what he was saying.

 

[acropilot]

Haha, yep that's a common occurrence. There is lots and lots of new information and excitement to distract you. Next time you fly, just try to look in the correct directions and I bet your orientation will be 10x better. Sounds like you had a great time overall though, and that's what it's all about.

 

[Henning]

Thanks. You know something that I realized after the fact...I didn't really look to my right at the land like he told me to during the loop! I guess I got rapped up in the excitement of it and just plain forgot or didn't process what he was saying.

I never 'look' in a direction other than the exact direction I want to go. If I am doing a back flip into a pool or a loop in a plane I will keep my head facing straight with the longitudinal axis as well as my eyes just 'looking' straight over the top of my head and maintain 'wings level' (which tends to stay that way) through peripheral vision observation.

 

[Seanaldinho]

wow! I better stay away from it then. Wouldn't want to get drowsy at the top of a loop
Crazy thing, I've only been sea sick on my first cruise. Never any issues in the air until the loops. I thought I had a strong stomach...yeah right

I don't even wanna think about outside loops anytime soon!

I can handle acrobatics and such but I went out deepsea fishing and was fine all the way out to the spot then we stopped put our lines out and I pulled in a few but man the rockin and the heat got to me and that was the first time ive ever been sea/motion sick I spent the rest of the day below deck.

 

[pigpenracing]

I never 'look' in a direction other than the exact direction I want to go. If I am doing a back flip into a pool or a loop in a plane I will keep my head facing straight with the longitudinal axis as well as my eyes just 'looking' straight over the top of my head and maintain 'wings level' (which tends to stay that way) through peripheral vision observation.

If you look straight doing a loop how do you know where you are?
I MUST look out of the side when I pull. The main reason is my Pitts needs lots of right rudder when you pull. If I look straight I wouldn't know how much rudder to push and my loop would be all jacked up.
How do you look straight on a straight up pull???? You must look out of the side to see the horizon.
Don't give bad advise if your not a aerobatic pilot.
You must look out of the side when you pull.

 

[redtail]

I guess the reference to looking to the side was to know when I reached the top of the loop as a cue when to stop the pull.

 

[acropilot]

I guess the reference to looking to the side was to know when I reached the top of the loop as a cue when to stop the pull.

Yes, that's one reason for looking to the side. The other is what pigpenracing stated: You look to make sure you're not "dragging" one wing behind. That way you end up level (inverted) half way through the maneuver and on heading, otherwise you may be off and that is poor technique and may be disorienting if you end up off far enough.

 

[Henning]

If you look straight doing a loop how do you know where you are?
I MUST look out of the side when I pull. The main reason is my Pitts needs lots of right rudder when you pull. If I look straight I wouldn't know how much rudder to push and my loop would be all jacked up.
How do you look straight on a straight up pull???? You must look out of the side to see the horizon.
Don't give bad advise if your not a aerobatic pilot.
You must look out of the side when you pull.

I am seeing out of my peripheral vision just fine almost straight out the wings, I just don't point my eyeballs or head in that direction. I can see the balance of proportion out both sides including horizon well into the initial pull and I can see it shift as well. Most aerobatic planes I'll catch the inverted horizon about 1/3rd of the way around and shift my vision back forward.

Just because I use a method that hasn't been taught to you doesn't mean it doesn't work, aerobatics is like anything else, there's always more than one way to skin a cat. I've flipping and twisting around since I started gymnastics at 6, this is the way you learn in gymnastics, "Where the eyes go, the body follows" I found that to be true with motorcycles when I started riding them, you look where you want to go, never at what you want to avoid because you will hit it. It crossed over straight and clean into aviation as well then when I started flying Ag, there it was again in writing from an aviation source with regards to flying under wires, "Once you see horizon under the wire, never look at it again. You will clear it so watch the ground and make sure you maintain that clearance. If you watch the wire you will have a wire strike."


BTW, my initial aerobatics instructor was amazed that I could fly clean lines so well right off the bat.

 

[PBristolJr]

Bill Thomas, "Fly for Fun"

Loop -Where to look:

"Where you look is very important. If you look over the nose, all you will see is blue sky and clouds. It is necessary to see the horizon in order to fly the airplane."
"As you start to lose sight of it (horizon) over the nose, look out to the sides, both the left and right sides. Look at the wing tips and the horizon and compare them in order to determine the attitude of the plane."

I totally agree with Bill, and you'll be needing to make corrections with the ailerons the whole time in order to achieve a perfect loop.

 

[whifferdill]

Regarding the where to look when issue - most folks are not going to be flying aerobatic competition, and even fewer are going to fly precisely enough to consistently win. Most folks don't care about competition precision - they are flying recreationally, and flying with whatever level of (non-ground critiqued) precision satisfies themselves. There is no such thing as one right technique when doing acro.

That being said, I have never seen a skilled competition aerobatic pilot not turn and look at the wingtip at various critically important times. In this world, being a couple degrees off doesn't cut it - you need to be dead nuts. It's really hard to be dead nuts unless you look at your wingtip to precisely assess your pitch attitude as well as your yaw attitude. Vertical rolls especially are not going to be good if you're not dead nuts on both pitch and yaw in the vertical attitude. It would nearly impossible to learn to do a precise vertical roll (up) while looking over the nose.

It's also hard to learn to maintain a precise attitude before and after a half roll on a 45 degree line (especially upline) unless you check your wingtip. Unless you have a good ground critiquer watching you every time you fly, you're not going to know exactly how precise you are. Looking at the wingtip allows you to more precisely self-critique. There are a bunch more maneuver examples I could give regarding precise self-critique (in cockpit) of your lines that would be impossible without looking at your wingtip.

The number one problem I see among competition pilots that produces inconsistency and imprecise lines (vertical and 45 degree) is not looking at the wingtip at the right time. In many cases, it only needs to be a very quick glance, then back to the nose. But again, most folks are flying recreationally and are not striving for, nor flying at the level of precision that is ideal for competition flying. But I feel like anything worth doing is worth attempting to do well. Looking in the right place (including the wingtip) at the right time is fundamental, and often understressed, producing habits that are hard to break if the pilot wishes to significantly improve their flying.

 

[redtail]

Thanks for all the great tips. I'm going to get a few of the books mentioned... can't wait to get back up there!

Unfortunately it's going to take a couple of weeks for that to happen.

 

[whifferdill]

Thanks for all the great tips. I'm going to get a few of the books mentioned...

If you're going to buy an aerobatic book, I would strongly recommend Alan Cassidy's "Better Aerobatics". IMO, it's by far the best book out there in or out of print (it's in print). Really an amazing effort and worth every penny. It's helped me a lot more than any of the others. I've read most of the others by Neil Williams, Eric Muller, Bill Thomas, Szurovy/Goulian, etc. and this one has the most detailed and in-depth descriptions and illustrations of the maneuvers (basic to unlimited level) as well as general flight dynamics. It's geared toward precision aerobatics, but that doesn't mean you have to be into competition to benefit from it.

The Williams, Muller, and Thomas books are good in their own way and each have a very different style, but if you're looking to gain the most understanding of the figures, the dynamics involved, and exactly how they should be flown, Cassidy's book will do this better than any of the others. If you're interested in a historical perspective on aerobatics, Neil Williams' book is interesting, but it's rather long-winded and fairly short on actual technique and detail. Bill Thomas' books are the easiest and most straightforward to read...completely no nonsense. Just not as comprehensive and with much less detail than Cassidy's book. Eric Muller's book is good. The Szurovy/Goulian books are pretty lite IMO.

 

[redtail]

Ok thanks, looks like "Better Aerobatics" it is.

 

[Henning]

Duane Cole wrote some good stuff too.

 

[steingar]

Eating a bit of candied ginger may help as well.

 

[jstro]

Bill Thomas, "Fly for Fun"
"As you start to lose sight of it (horizon) over the nose, look out to the sides, both the left and right sides. Look at the wing tips and the horizon and compare them in order to determine the attitude of the plane."

The advice I got was not to look out both sides. You don't have time, things are changing quickly. Get used to what the wingtip site picture is when you're not dragging a wingtip, and just take a glance out to one side.

I'm an aerobatics noob and not saying the above works for everybody, but it seemed to make sense to me.

 

[whifferdill]

The advice I got was not to look out both sides. You don't have time, things are changing quickly. Get used to what the wingtip site picture is when you're not dragging a wingtip, and just take a glance out to one side.

Yep, a single wingtip will tell you everything you need to know about pitch and yaw. You just have to learn exactly what the wingtip position looks like relative to the horizon when the airplane is perfectly vertical in yaw. Do this and there's no need to look back and forth at both wings to check for a dragged wing. As soon as you start turning your head back and forth, this introduces the liklihood of inadvertent stick movements...and also breaks your focus on holding a precise attitude. Most people choose the left wing, since most aerobatic airplanes have a right-hand stick setup, and it's typically more ergonomic to look left with your right hand on the stick than vice versa.

 

[PBristolJr]

Yep, a single wingtip will tell you everything you need to know about pitch and yaw. You just have to learn exactly what the wingtip position looks like relative to the horizon when the airplane is perfectly vertical in yaw. Do this and there's no need to look back and forth at both wings to check for a dragged wing. As soon as you start turning your head back and forth, this introduces the liklihood of inadvertent stick movements...and also breaks your focus on holding a precise attitude. Most people choose the left wing, since most aerobatic airplanes have a right-hand stick setup, and it's typically more ergonomic to look left with your right hand on the stick than vice versa.

Agreed, although it will take some time to burn that correct sight picture into your melon, and will be slightly different for each plane you fly.

 

[whifferdill]

Agreed, although it will take some time to burn that correct sight picture into your melon, and will be slightly different for each plane you fly.

Not if you have a properly adjusted sighting device. But for those without, yeah, it will take a little more time to burn in the sight picture. But then if you don't have a sighting device, you're probably not into competition, and being a couple degrees off on any axis isn't going to matter much. If you can't or don't care about flying with precision, you just fly airshows.

 

[Henning]

Not if you have a properly adjusted sighting device. But for those without, yeah, it will take a little more time to burn in the sight picture. But then if you don't have a sighting device, you're probably not into competition, and being a couple degrees off on any axis isn't going to matter much. If you can't or don't care about flying with precision, you just fly airshows.

Air shows pay money, competition doesn't right?