Begin tailwheel training

FlySince9 said:
I think its because they didn't land on runways. They landed on fields as big as Arkansas. At least it looks that way in the movies :D
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There is some truth to this....most airfields back then were wide open patches of grass....even in the 30's, many commercial airports were just big wide circles of grass or cinders - no specified runways as we know them. You didn't have to do too many x-wind landings or takeoffs.
 
RyanShort1 said:
That's because most likely you're on the CFI's insurance (hopefully he has it) until you have the endorsement.

Ryan
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Got my own CFI renter's insurance. I keep my CFI rider even though I am not teaching right now. Doesn't cost any more with Avemco.

Will have to talk to them a little more about it Saturday.

Hope not to have to use it.

David
 
flhrci said:
Just thought I would add another aircraft brand to my logbook besides Cessna and Piper.

David
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Well a Champ has more in common with the Pipers that you're used to than the Cub does. :)
 
More WWI pilots bought it from takeoff and landing that combat. Wouldn't be at all surprised if the same didn't hold for WWII.

I've thought about going out there as well, but have trouble justifying an endorsement for a type I will rarely if ever get to fly.
 
MBDiagMan said:
Yes on the brakes. With exceptions for specific situations, I generally use brakes only after roll out to a slow speed, to slow down before exiting the runway or sometimes in a hard turn at taxi speed in a turn too tight for the rudder pedals alone to get the job done.

One thing that echoed in my head in the beginning was a Clark Gable line from "Command Decision." He was trying to talk a bombardier trying to land a B17 onto the ground after the pilot and copilot had been killed. The kid got it on the ground okay then hit the brakes while Clark Gable was yelling "stay off those brakes!"

When you're rolling down the runway at speed, brakes are only as a last resort.

It's been 20 years since I flew a Champ, but as I recall it has heel brakes. IMHO they are a little awkward compared to toe brakes.
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With some experience, brakes can be used more.... but theres brakes and theres brakes. The old cable-actuated goodyear and bendix systems are often grabby.... and flying a j3 from the back ive found the damn heel brakes are so well hidden, they always seem to be there when you dont want them, but not when you reaaly want them.
In general, thouh, i think the first thing is to learn to do all the normal stuff well without brakes. Energy management is so critical with these old light taildraggers, especially rolling in wind. Obvioisly you need to try the brakes right away, see what they do.... but i was advised to avoid them, and i think that helped me.
 
FlySince9 said:
I think its because they didn't land on runways. They landed on fields as big as Arkansas. At least it looks that way in the movies :D
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Those old kites also had tail skids, not wheels... that'll slow you down quickly.
 
The biggest reason i like the J3 for training is if they have you fly from the back you learn to look out the sides of the airplane right from the get go. It should not take any longer to get your endorsement and you will learn a skill that translates to any airplane you fly. Look at all the threads on landing,x winds and keeping straight on roll out. It is much easier to judge you're height and drift looking out the sides of the airplane instead of looking way down the runway. When flying something like the Stearman you can't see down the runway so you must use the sides. I learned T/W in a Great Lakes when I had 100hrs tt and soloed it in 6.5hrs. Heel brakes and no forward vis in a three point. Don't go with what you think is the easiest plane to fly but the one that will teach you the most. Don
 
I flew the Aeronca Champ yesterday for the first time. Talk about culture shock. Basic VFR day instruments only. No radios. No headsets. Barely anything. Noisy. Took me a while to get used to it. HAND PROPPED!!!!! OMG!


Got a short brief from the CFI and he told me the acronym for the checklist. Can’t remember it any more. A lady hand-propped it for us and the noise was a lot to deal with. I sat in the front. At this point I was thinking I was not going back again. Had made a mistake.


He did the take off to let me get used to it a little. And we quickly went a couple miles to the local glider port, slipped in and did a touch n go and then he gave me the controls. We climbed up to 3000 MSL. HE had me do some turns, overly steep to me turns, turns around a point and stalls and maybe a few other things. All at various altitudes.


He let me land it. I was a little behind the plane but I did it. I was proud of myself to. It was a no wind day also. No wind but straight down the runway.


I had a good time after all and once I got used to the low-tech it is actually nice to be able to go backwards.



I will be going back. But I will probablyt use my headset and portable radio when I am flying it by myself. For now, the CFI's way is the way.


David
 
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"But I will probably use my headset and portable radio when I am flying it by myself. For now, the CFI's way is the way"

Consider borrowing (or heaven forbid, buy) a battery powered portable intercom and ask your CFI to use it with you. It will be every bit as much flying with ear protection!

Scott
 
l8evator said:
"But I will probably use my headset and portable radio when I am flying it by myself. For now, the CFI's way is the way"

Consider borrowing (or heaven forbid, buy) a battery powered portable intercom and ask your CFI to use it with you. It will be every bit as much flying with ear protection!

Scott
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I was at least thinking earplugs. When I did my Private in 1998, my CFI back then would not wear a headset cause he always wore a helmet ag flying. I tried it for a few flights but not being able to hear the overhead speaker and the headaches forced me to bu ya headset. He still did not wear one for a long time once he saw I was going to keep doing it. lol


David
 
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I wear a headset linked to a Sporty's SP-200 handheld cabled to a whip antenna mounted to the wing root. It's as good as any dedicated panel mount.

But it is noisy -- no sound-proofing, and little distance between the cabin and the straight stacks (no muffler).

An hour or two just isn't enough. It took me 50 hours before I felt like I was wearing the airplane.
 
dmccormack said:
I wear a headset linked to a Sporty's SP-200 handheld cabled to a whip antenna mounted to the wing root. It's as good as any dedicated panel mount.

But it is noisy -- no sound-proofing, and little distance between the cabin and the straight stacks (no muffler).

An hour or two just isn't enough. It took me 50 hours before I felt like I was wearing the airplane.
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I am at about 32 hours in the Luscombe and coming along nicely. :D

Did about 1.5 hours of pattern work in the Arrow this evening and I love the difference in my stick and rudder. Even did a greaser of a short/soft on the grass strip. :yesnod:

I did learn that the Arrow laughs at ground effect.
 
alfadog said:
I did learn that the Arrow laughs at ground effect.
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Isn't that a funny thing about the Arrow? I mean it looks just like a Warrior with retractable gear...even has the same wing.....but while a Warrior will float all the way down the runway if you carry too much speed into the flare....the Arrow sure as heck won't!



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
Fearless Tower said:
Isn't that a funny thing about the Arrow? I mean it looks just like a Warrior with retractable gear...even has the same wing.....but while a Warrior will float all the way down the runway if you carry too much speed into the flare....the Arrow sure as heck won't!



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
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Surprised the hell out of me. I was taught to hold 16" or so all the way down and I made some pretty ones like that today but I also wanted to try some full stall landings, which I had not done in the Arrow.

On one I was coming up a bit short and my friend says, "you are a little short, are you going to add some power?" Nah, sez I, I will let ground effect take care of it.

Yeah.

Sure.

The Arrow laughs at ground effect.

In Soviet Arrow, ground affects you you affect ground!
 
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flhrci said:
I flew the Aeronca Champ yesterday for the first time. Talk about culture shock. Basic VFR day instruments only. No radios. No headsets. Barely anything. Noisy. Took me a while to get used to it. HAND PROPPED!!!!! OMG!


Got a short brief from the CFI and he told me the acronym for the checklist. Can’t remember it any more. A lady hand-propped it for us and the noise was a lot to deal with. I sat in the front. At this point I was thinking I was not going back again. Had made a mistake.


He did the take off to let me get used to it a little. And we quickly went a couple miles to the local glider port, slipped in and did a touch n go and then he gave me the controls. We climbed up to 3000 MSL. HE had me do some turns, overly steep to me turns, turns around a point and stalls and maybe a few other things. All at various altitudes.


He let me land it. I was a little behind the plane but I did it. I was proud of myself to. It was a no wind day also. No wind but straight down the runway.


I had a good time after all and once I got used to the low-tech it is actually nice to be able to go backwards.



I will be going back. But I will probablyt use my headset and portable radio when I am flying it by myself. For now, the CFI's way is the way.


David
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Remember, thousands of pilots learned to fly in Cubs and Champs with no radio, no intercom and basic instruments. Leave your handheld and headset at home and just enjoy the experience of really learning how to fly an airplane. Make sure to fly the J3 at least once and leave the door and window open. Don
 
yakdriver said:
Remember, thousands of pilots learned to fly in Cubs and Champs with no radio, no intercom and basic instruments. Leave your handheld and headset at home and just enjoy the experience of really learning how to fly an airplane. Make sure to fly the J3 at least once and leave the door and window open. Don
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Yes, my first 7 hours were in a Champ. Hand prop, no radio, minimal instruments. It was a blast.
 
flhrci said:
I flew the Aeronca Champ yesterday for the first time. Talk about culture shock. Basic VFR day instruments only. No radios. No headsets. Barely anything. Noisy. Took me a while to get used to it. HAND PROPPED!!!!! OMG!


Got a short brief from the CFI and he told me the acronym for the checklist. Can’t remember it any more. A lady hand-propped it for us and the noise was a lot to deal with. I sat in the front. At this point I was thinking I was not going back again. Had made a mistake.


He did the take off to let me get used to it a little. And we quickly went a couple miles to the local glider port, slipped in and did a touch n go and then he gave me the controls. We climbed up to 3000 MSL. HE had me do some turns, overly steep to me turns, turns around a point and stalls and maybe a few other things. All at various altitudes.


He let me land it. I was a little behind the plane but I did it. I was proud of myself to. It was a no wind day also. No wind but straight down the runway.


I had a good time after all and once I got used to the low-tech it is actually nice to be able to go backwards.



I will be going back. But I will probablyt use my headset and portable radio when I am flying it by myself. For now, the CFI's way is the way.


David
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Noice! I love hand-propping the Luscombe. Have it on my YT channel. The acronym my CFI taught me in the Luscombe is CIG-FPT then run-up. Obviously, CIG-T would do for the Luscombe :wink2:
 
CIGAR controls, instruments, gas, attitude (trim), run up. Still use it every time. Don
 
yakdriver said:
Remember, thousands of pilots learned to fly in Cubs and Champs with no radio, no intercom and basic instruments. Leave your handheld and headset at home and just enjoy the experience of really learning how to fly an airplane. Make sure to fly the J3 at least once and leave the door and window open. Don
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My $.02: I don't care about the radio, but the headset is a good idea. You only get 1 set of ears and progressive, long term hearing loss is a real thing.

John
 
jsstevens said:
My $.02: I don't care about the radio, but the headset is a good idea. You only get 1 set of ears and progressive, long term hearing loss is a real thing.

John
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HUH? WHAT'DYA SAY?:confused::rofl:

What you say is DEFINITELY the truth! One of the things I did in the Army was radar repair. We had an Acq radar with a LOUD cooling unit as part of the HAWK missile system. It was supposed to require hearing protection, but it was hardly ever available. I spent LOTS of time next to that noisy cooling unit.

When I was getting out of the Army they told me I had a hearing loss and wanted me to take a disability as if I were some Special Forces Purple Heart winner or something. I didn't accept it. Too proud.

Now over 40 years later my hearing loss has gotten even worse. I can still hear but not very well.

Wear your headset or end up like me.

I've seen the movie Good Morning Vietnam a few times and when Robin Williams goes through the routine of mocking the loud talking artilleryman, I always think of myself.
 
He's only getting checked out and won't be flying the airplanes that many hours. If you are going to fly them regularly after getting checked out then use your headset. Don
 
MBDiagMan said:
HUH? WHAT'DYA SAY?:confused::rofl:

What you say is DEFINITELY the truth! One of the things I did in the Army was radar repair. We had an Acq radar with a LOUD cooling unit as part of the HAWK missile system. It was supposed to require hearing protection, but it was hardly ever available. I spent LOTS of time next to that noisy cooling unit.

When I was getting out of the Army they told me I had a hearing loss and wanted me to take a disability as if I were some Special Forces Purple Heart winner or something. I didn't accept it. Too proud.

Now over 40 years later my hearing loss has gotten even worse. I can still hear but not very well.

Wear your headset or end up like me.

I've seen the movie Good Morning Vietnam a few times and when Robin Williams goes through the routine of mocking the loud talking artilleryman, I always think of myself.
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Did you ever think about going back to the VA for a re-assessment? Is that even possible? I've thought about doing that for hearing loss as well... just never motivated enough to go beyond "just a passing thought" - usually about the 3rd time my wife says "did you hear me?" which is ironic in itself. She's truly deaf in one ear as a result of an acoustic neuroma and resulting radiation treatment. The neuroma was strangling the auditory nerve, but the radiation killed the nerve as well as the tumor. Unintended consequences, I guess.
 
gkainz said:
Did you ever think about going back to the VA for a re-assessment? Is that even possible? I've thought about doing that for hearing loss as well... just never motivated enough to go beyond "just a passing thought" - usually about the 3rd time my wife says "did you hear me?" which is ironic in itself. She's truly deaf in one ear as a result of an acoustic neuroma and resulting radiation treatment. The neuroma was strangling the auditory nerve, but the radiation killed the nerve as well as the tumor. Unintended consequences, I guess.
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Greg,

My wife, who is a HR person for the VA, talked me into going and seeing about getting the disability based on my hearing loss. I'm really too proud to take money from anyone, especially the government, but to keep her quiet I made an appointment. They did a hearing test and confirmed my hearing loss. THEN they said that it was not enough loss to warrant a disability.

Very interesting, since my hearing is now worse, but I WAS eligible at the time of discharge in July '71. I don't remember details, but I checked into it at the time, about 6 years ago, and in '71 I was eligible because the required amount of loss was less at that time. You would think that it would be determined by the level from '71, but they used the level required today instead.

Several people said that there were ways, such as writing my congressman, to make it happen, but after going there and seeing fellow veterans that had REAL problems, I decided that I'm fortunate enough to pay for my own healthcare and I'll leave the VA to take care of those that REALLY need it.
 
I wish I were sitting on a pile of excess money right now, if I were, I'd head out there and do whatever I needed to do to solo a Stearman (looks like they permit it). Something I'd like to do at least once in my life...
 
jesse said:
I wish I were sitting on a pile of excess money right now, if I were, I'd head out there and do whatever I needed to do to solo a Stearman (looks like they permit it). Something I'd like to do at least once in my life...
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Heck, if you are sitting on a pile of excess money, buy the Stearman - they are only, what, $130k? :D
 
alfadog said:
Heck, if you are sitting on a pile of excess money, buy the Stearman - they are only, what, $130k? :D
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That would be a larger pile of excess money then I'm likely to be sitting on in the immediate future.
 
Soloing a Stearman is an excellent goal, and for most people, more challenging than getting an ATP. The learning curve is steep even for folks who have been weaned in taildraggers. That said, the Stearman is probably the most completely honest flying airplane of the 120 or so types I've had the pleasure to fly. The cockpit is huge, rudder pedals far apart. Controls are all ball-bearing, and fairly responsive...for a lumbering ol' biplane. Can fly around most of the time with a thumb and finger or two on the stick, and feet lightly on the pedals. Like most biplanes, with all those struts and flying wires, it glides like a set of car keys when the power is off. Visability is excellent, except for straight ahead, and as you might imagine, it's quite windy. Some of the aforementioned concerns about brakes in this thread become profoundly important when landing or taxiing a PT-17...sit's got a heavy fuel tank mounted about 8 feet above the mains, and an engine and prop slightly lower, but in front of the mains, so, if one gets a little too urgent with the brakes, you'll do an expensive face-plant. It really holds a mirror up to you - makes a good pilot look, well, not so good as he thought, and a bad one look like an introductory student. If you can fly a Stearman really well, I'd argue you can fly anything.
 
j1b3h0 said:
Soloing a Stearman is an excellent goal, and for most people, more challenging than getting an ATP. The learning curve is steep even for folks who have been weaned in taildraggers. That said, the Stearman is probably the most completely honest flying airplane of the 120 or so types I've had the pleasure to fly. The cockpit is huge, rudder pedals far apart. Controls are all ball-bearing, and fairly responsive...for a lumbering ol' biplane. Can fly around most of the time with a thumb and finger or two on the stick, and feet lightly on the pedals. Like most biplanes, with all those struts and flying wires, it glides like a set of car keys when the power is off. Visability is excellent, except for straight ahead, and as you might imagine, it's quite windy. Some of the aforementioned concerns about brakes in this thread become profoundly important when landing or taxiing a PT-17...sit's got a heavy fuel tank mounted about 8 feet above the mains, and an engine and prop slightly lower, but in front of the mains, so, if one gets a little too urgent with the brakes, you'll do an expensive face-plant. It really holds a mirror up to you - makes a good pilot look, well, not so good as he thought, and a bad one look like an introductory student. If you can fly a Stearman really well, I'd argue you can fly anything.
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Disagree a bit with that. IMO, if you're comfortable in a J-3, you won't have any trouble adjusting to the Stearman very quickly and easily. A Stearman flies just like a big J-3. Biggest difference is simply adjusting to how much higher the Stearman sits off the ground, and learning not to fly it into the ground. :) The soft oleo gear can make your landings look and feel better than they really are. It really soaks up a lot. Takes a lot of work to really bounce a Stearman if you're anywhere close to 3-point attitude. They're much heavier than a Cub (think inertia), have a higher CG, and relatively narrower gear than a Cub, so they won't let you get quite as far out of shape swerving before you can bring it back. But as long as you keep it rolling fairly straight, it pretty much goes straight on its own with very little effort from the pilot. IMO, it almost seems easier to land and handle than a Cub...as long as you don't let a significant swerve develop. But I admit I've never flown a Stearman in a lot of wind, so can't comment on serious x-wind work and how much of a challenge they are from that standpoint. I think someone who has never touched a tailwheel airplane could become equally competent in a J-3 or a Stearman in the same amount of time.

The Stearman and Pitts both seem to be types that have an inordinate amount of lore, tall hangar tales, and "difficulty factor" associated with them...mostly by folks who have little-to-no experience with them. In reality, they're both perfectly honest airplanes that are likely just a little different from what you're used to. No such thing as "hard to fly" airplanes...just ones that you have less time in compared to other types. That being said, for the me, the learning curve was steeper in the Pitts than the Stearman. I had Stearman experience before Pitts experience. But the difference in learning curve wasn't that much, all things considered.
 
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Fearless Tower said:
True...you got to have some real talent to nose over a Champ on the ground.

Heel brakes....the curse of pilots....blessing for instructors!
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With stock brakes, yes. The FBO I once worked for upgraded one to disk brakes. It was less than 3 weeks before a student locked up the brakes and rolled it over. With the instructor in the back. Brakes are about the only control the instructor can't overpower the student on.


Brian
 
I'll admit, I haven't flown a J-3 in almost 30 years, and then only briefly, so, forgive my ignorance. Aside from the shear scale of the Stearman, the thing I think a Cub pilot will experience is the momentum, particularly if a little sideways. Multiply the Stearman a couple times, and that's what a heavy Twin Beech is like. But if you never let it get sideways, it's never a problem.
 
The Stearman was a great trainer but the N3N is the Cadillac of the WWII biplane trainers. They are both pretty docile as long as you keep it going straight. If you let the tail swerve or the wind get under a wing in a cross wind as things can go south real quick. I have a lot of time in the N3N and have given half a dozen check outs in them. It usually takes 5 or 6 hours to check out a competent tailwheel pilot. It's a lot of fun letting someone that has been flying Citabrias, Cubs, C140s etc try their hand at the N. I used to fly a stock N3n with the 30"x5" tall skinney tires with crummy Lockheed brakes. It had the well deserved nickname "Yellow Peril". The one I fly now has BT-13 wheels and brakes and handles a lot better on the ground. If any of you can get a chance to fly one of the open cockpit bi plane trainers don't pass it up. Don
 
I start tailwheel training in my new (to me) Piper PA-22/20 in one month.

I understand they bite, wish me luck.

Rich
 
richas said:
I start tailwheel training in my new (to me) Piper PA-22/20 in one month.

I understand they bite, wish me luck.

Rich
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Sweet, that is one of my fav airplanes. Had a nice long talk with a fellow in the Short Wing Piper trailer at SnF this year.
 
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