Begin tailwheel training

flhrci

flhrci

Final Approach
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David
Welp,

Decided to pull the trigger and get my tailwheel endorsement in an Aeronca Champ on a grass strip this coming Saturday.

Should be fun! Not to mention slowwwwwww in comparison to 172's and Arrow's. But I am ready for a change.

I am going to Waynesville, OH to Red Stewart Airfield. (40I)

They have various flavors of tail wheel airplanes to fly.

J3 Cub: $63.00 and $69.00
Champ: $63.00
C150: $74.00
C172: $98.00
Citabria: $114.00
Piper Arrow: $145.00
Stearman PT-17:$188.00
Taylorcraft: $74

http://www.stewartsaircraft.net/5101.html

David
 
flhrci said:
Welp,

Decided to pull the trigger and get my tailwheel endorsement in an Aeronca Champ on a grass strip this coming Saturday.

Should be fun! Not to mention slowwwwwww in comparison to 172's and Arrow's. But I am ready for a change.

I am going to Waynesville, OH to Red Stewart Airfield. (40I)

They have various flavors of tail wheel airplanes to fly.

J3 Cub: $63.00 and $69.00
Champ: $63.00
C150: $74.00
C172: $98.00
Citabria: $114.00
Piper Arrow: $145.00
Stearman PT-17:$188.00
Taylorcraft: $74

http://www.stewartsaircraft.net/5101.html

David
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Dang....I need to come out there....that is the cheapest Stearman time I've seen these days.
 
flhrci said:
Welp,

Decided to pull the trigger and get my tailwheel endorsement in an Aeronca Champ on a grass strip this coming Saturday.

Should be fun! Not to mention slowwwwwww in comparison to 172's and Arrow's. But I am ready for a change.

I am going to Waynesville, OH to Red Stewart Airfield. (40I)

They have various flavors of tail wheel airplanes to fly.

J3 Cub: $63.00 and $69.00
Champ: $63.00
C150: $74.00
C172: $98.00
Citabria: $114.00
Piper Arrow: $145.00
Stearman PT-17:$188.00
Taylorcraft: $74

http://www.stewartsaircraft.net/5101.html

David
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This makes me happy, I'm in the SF Bay Area and my 150 is $80. Now I know I'm doing OK with my choice of flight schools.
 
Let me know what you think of it.That's fairly close to me as well. I was considering going down to Tiffin (16G?) to get it.
 
Glad I'm a lousy stick and it took me a few hours longer to get my TW. But hope you enjoy your weekend with the Champ.

Will be interested to hear what you think of the operation. Know a few who've been; keeping it in mind for future opps.
 
BTW, a Cub will prepare you better if you have any interest in flying antique/classic or high performance biplanes at some point, since you have to learn to use more of your peripheral vision during landing than the Champ. You can see straight over the nose in the Champ, so it's probably more like the sight picture you're used to. Either plane is a great tailwheel trainer. I learned to fly in a Champ and used to have one. I prefer the Cub now. Much nicer flying qualities, IMO.
 
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whifferdill said:
BTW, a Cub will prepare you better if you have any interest in flying antique/classic or high performance biplanes at some point, since you have to learn to use more of your peripheral vision during landing than the Champ. You can see straight over the nose in the Champ, so it's probably more like the sight picture you're used to. Either plane is a great tailwheel trainer. I learned to fly in a Champ and used to have one. I prefer the Cub now. Much nicer flying qualities, IMO.
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Good point about the cub. In the Champ, there is really no reason to do S-turns when taxiing. Champ is by far the easiest tailwheel I have flown.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
PS - why did you choose the champ?
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My first seven hours were in a Champ and it's a GREAT plane to learn tailwheel. It sits up more level on the ground which makes it such that you can see over the nose. I'm 6 feet tall so maybe not everyone can see over the nose.

Seeing over the nose will make it a little easier after first flying a nose dragger. He will have his hands full just learning the rudder control. The Champ requires constant rudder attention. After he's gotten that down, then he can move on to a plane that requires S turns and watching only the sides of the runway after he has already mastered the rudder pedal thingies.
 
Good for you!

I recently got my tw endorsement in a Luscombe and have about 40 hours total in it now including about six cross-country round trips.

It has done wonders for my stick and rudder skills and it showed in my landings when I got back to flying my Arrow for Sun 'n Fun.

Don't be disappointed if it takes a while to master it. IMO, the five hours usually quoted might work for someone that was already sharp on stick and rudder and learning on grass in easy winds. Personally, it took me 16 hours, in a Luscombe, on asphalt, stiff crosswinds, and with a lot of bad habits to unlearn. I don't begrudge it and when I solo'd and nailed the first landing, it was worth it. See my YT channel. :)
 
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At those prices, make SURE you have renters insurance. I'd bet they don't have any on the aircraft and if you groundloop one or do a prop-strike, it would be wise.

Ryan
 
Just remember to fly the airplane until you shut the engine off. ;)

Happy happy happy feet! Your feet need to be moving all of the time it seems. Stay ahead of the curve by keeping the plane straight.
 
RyanShort1 said:
At those prices, make SURE you have renters insurance. I'd bet they don't have any on the aircraft and if you groundloop one or do a prop-strike, it would be wise.

Ryan
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Yes. Also that wind restriction is pretty extreme. And you can only land at their airport if not with an instructor. It would be fun to go up there for a long weekend and just fly a bunch of different taildraggers but I do not like that wind thingie. 12 kt right down the runway and you cannot go :confused:
 
Go with the J3. It is a much better trainer. The Champ is too easy to fly. Don
 
SLOW?
Wait till the first touchdown with a little side drift and the tail wheel off the ground and we will see if your definition of "slow" holds water :eek:
 
All the above is true, including the Cub comments....but its not a bad idea to do the endorsement with the Champ, then get checked out in the J3. Thats what I did..... although in between flew some Cessna 140s.
The Champ really does have better vis and is a bit easier to take off and land, but the J3 is probably easier to keep coordinated. They both pretty much fly like they look. Neither will climb well at max gross with the stock A65.
Flying the Cub from the back makes it hard to get at the carb heat knob, but same is true flying a 7AC from the front. There's not much difference, but the Champ is more noob-friendly in the critical areas, like taxiing.
Either one will keep your feet busy, as stated above. More advice: you will master ground handling of these old birds quicker if you pretend there are no brakes. Nine times out of ten, using brakes when actually moving will only get you in trouble.
Two critical preflight items (from my own experience): tailwheel springs (between rudder horns and tailwheel) and condition of fabric on tops of wings. Loose springs or loose tape/clips can make things a little too interesting.
 
Fearless Tower said:
You said 12 kts straight down the runway....that is not what I quoted from the site.
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Yes, and 12 > 10. And "straight down the runway" subset of "any direction". I made an illustrative example.
 
rottydaddy said:
All the above is true, including the Cub comments....but its not a bad idea to do the endorsement with the Champ, then get checked out in the J3. Thats what I did..... although in between flew some Cessna 140s.
The Champ really does have better vis and is a bit easier to take off and land, but the J3 is probably easier to keep coordinated. They both pretty much fly like they look. Neither will climb well at max gross with the stock A65.
Flying the Cub from the back makes it hard to get at the carb heat knob, but same is true flying a 7AC from the front. There's not much difference, but the Champ is more noob-friendly in the critical areas, like taxiing.
Either one will keep your feet busy, as stated above. More advice: you will master ground handling of these old birds quicker if you pretend there are no brakes. Nine times out of ten, using brakes when actually moving will only get you in trouble.
Two critical preflight items (from my own experience): tailwheel springs (between rudder horns and tailwheel) and condition of fabric on tops of wings. Loose springs or loose tape/clips can make things a little too interesting.
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Yes on the brakes. With exceptions for specific situations, I generally use brakes only after roll out to a slow speed, to slow down before exiting the runway or sometimes in a hard turn at taxi speed in a turn too tight for the rudder pedals alone to get the job done.

One thing that echoed in my head in the beginning was a Clark Gable line from "Command Decision." He was trying to talk a bombardier trying to land a B17 onto the ground after the pilot and copilot had been killed. The kid got it on the ground okay then hit the brakes while Clark Gable was yelling "stay off those brakes!"

When you're rolling down the runway at speed, brakes are only as a last resort.

It's been 20 years since I flew a Champ, but as I recall it has heel brakes. IMHO they are a little awkward compared to toe brakes.
 
MBDiagMan said:
It's been 20 years since I flew a Champ, but as I recall it has heel brakes. IMHO they are a little awkward compared to toe brakes.
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True...you got to have some real talent to nose over a Champ on the ground.

Heel brakes....the curse of pilots....blessing for instructors!
 
MBDiagMan said:
Yes on the brakes. With exceptions for specific situations, I generally use brakes only after roll out to a slow speed, to slow down before exiting the runway or sometimes in a hard turn at taxi speed in a turn too tight for the rudder pedals alone to get the job done.

One thing that echoed in my head in the beginning was a Clark Gable line from "Command Decision." He was trying to talk a bombardier trying to land a B17 onto the ground after the pilot and copilot had been killed. The kid got it on the ground okay then hit the brakes while Clark Gable was yelling "stay off those brakes!"

When you're rolling down the runway at speed, brakes are only as a last resort.

It's been 20 years since I flew a Champ, but as I recall it has heel brakes. IMHO they are a little awkward compared to toe brakes.
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The Luscombe has heel brakes. Throughout my endorsement training it was Clark Gable all the way. :D I am just getting to the point where I can use them while using the rudder correctly. I got real crossed-up on a landing recently and was quick enough on the brake to prevent a ground loop.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Got ya
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No prob. :)

Just that it reminds me of the AFF skydive training I tried last November. Student 'chutes max out at about 20 mph over the ground so there is a limit of 15 kt at 3000' and ground level for the students to jump. I lost the first day for winds, made my first jump a few days later, and then could not jump again before the 30-day limit on currency ran out. Have to back up and redo the ground school and possibly the first jump and I don't have the cash so that will have to wait.

I would hate to fly out to Ohio for a long weekend and not be able to solo in a 12 kt wind down the runway :nonod:
 
I have a really good friend who occasionally flies the cubs at Stewart's. I believe they also have a Schweizer 2-33 there too so if you want to learn how to fly that is an option. Caesar Creek Soaring Club is not far away and is the largest club in the country I think. They have a very nice setup.
 
Fearless Tower said:
True...you got to have some real talent to nose over a Champ on the ground.

Heel brakes....the curse of pilots....blessing for instructors!
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Why is that? More time for them? :wink2:

The Luscombe only has brakes on the left side. My CFI put me there and said "Don't screw up." I didn't, at least not where brakes were concerned. :wink2:

When he got out and told me to solo, it was "Don't embarrass me." I didn't. :D
 
alfadog said:
The Luscombe has heel brakes. Throughout my endorsement training it was Clark Gable all the way. :D I am just getting to the point where I can use them while using the rudder correctly. I got real crossed-up on a landing recently and was quick enough on the brake to prevent a ground loop.
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Yes, early on I found myself preventing a ground loop with differential braking. Haven't come close to such an event in a LONG time. I just hope I can keep it that way.
 
MBDiagMan said:
Yes, early on I found myself preventing a ground loop with differential braking. Haven't come close to such an event in a LONG time. I just hope I can keep it that way.
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Good for you :) Reminds me of a fellow that might buy a partnership in the Luscombe. He has about 500 hours, IIRC, almost all in taildraggers, and mentioned that he figures that he is about done bouncing little airplanes. Hopefully, I am almost to that point. Not quite, but almost.
 
alfadog said:
I would hate to fly out to Ohio for a long weekend and not be able to solo in a 12 kt wind down the runway :nonod:
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Funny thing about x-winds and taildraggers....I've found I have the most challenge between 7 and 10 kts. Below 7 and I don't notice it. Above 10 and the x-wind correction is alot easier to gauge and it is easier to stick the upwind wheel. My squirrely landings have all been with the overall wind speed between 7 and 10.
 
MBDiagMan said:
Yes, early on I found myself preventing a ground loop with differential braking. Haven't come close to such an event in a LONG time. I just hope I can keep it that way.
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I use the brakes all the time.

They help you stop. They help you steer. What's the problem with using them?

Landing a tailrdagger can't be that hard. I seem to manage OK. I usually even leave the airplane in a "re-usable" condition.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
I use the brakes all the time.

They help you stop. They help you steer. What's the problem with using them?

Landing a tailrdagger can't be that hard. I seem to manage OK. I usually even leave the airplane in a "re-usable" condition.
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Like riding a unicycle and many other things, it is simple once you know how. :yesnod:
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
I use the brakes all the time.

They help you stop. They help you steer. What's the problem with using them?

Landing a tailrdagger can't be that hard. I seem to manage OK. I usually even leave the airplane in a "re-usable" condition.
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Hmm.... Well, I don't need to use them when I'm taking off. I don't need to use them when I'm touching down and rolling out until I've rolled off some speed. If I'm on grass that speed comes off quickly anyway. I have gotten out of shape and used a brake to straighten it up.:wink2:

I'm not understanding why I should use them all the time.:confused:
 
MBDiagMan said:
Hmm.... Well, I don't need to use them when I'm taking off. I don't need to use them when I'm touching down and rolling out until I've rolled off some speed. If I'm on grass that speed comes off quickly anyway. I have gotten out of shape and used a brake to straighten it up.:wink2:

I'm not understanding why I should use them all the time.:confused:
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Ok, not "All the time", but "regularly".

I'm having a problem understanding why some people seem to think that using brakes in conjunction with a tailwheel is an issue.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Ok, not "All the time", but "regularly".

I'm having a problem understanding why some people seem to think that using brakes in conjunction with a tailwheel is an issue.
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Using brakes for me in a TW has yet to be an issue. I guess it will continue that way until I ground loop it. I feel pretty proficient given my lack of TW experience.

In fact it amazes me how those guys dealt with a Jenny or a Sopwith Camel with no brakes at all.:confused:
 
MBDiagMan said:
Using brakes for me in a TW has yet to be an issue. I guess it will continue that way until I ground loop it. I feel pretty proficient given my lack of TW experience.

In fact it amazes me how those guys dealt with a Jenny or a Sopwith Camel with no brakes at all.:confused:
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I think its because they didn't land on runways. They landed on fields as big as Arkansas. At least it looks that way in the movies :D
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Ok, not "All the time", but "regularly".

I'm having a problem understanding why some people seem to think that using brakes in conjunction with a tailwheel is an issue.
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The problem is when a tool becomes a crutch. There is no reason to use brakes until the rudder pedal is on the floor. I see a lot of pilots steering with brakes instead of the rudder pedals. That's what is nice about most heel brakes. Most are set up so they are awkward to use until you get full rudder deflection. Don
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
PS - why did you choose the champ?
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Just thought I would add another aircraft brand to my logbook besides Cessna and Piper.

I also tried to get my TW endorsement in 2006 when I was still a 165 hour PP, with those hours being spread out of 10 years. I tried to do it in a Stearman and I had 11 hours in it. Took a long time. The CFI was going to sign me off next flight but I lost my job and could not afford it any more.

I had trouble seeing over the CFI so I thought the front seat TW airplane might be better for me this time.

You can see me flying it in this video:

http://youtu.be/Nfos9dANg2k


David
 
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RyanShort1 said:
At those prices, make SURE you have renters insurance. I'd bet they don't have any on the aircraft and if you groundloop one or do a prop-strike, it would be wise.

Ryan
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They do want renter's insurance but they say only from solo on.

David
 
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