Beech Sierra Experience?

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I am coming into an opportunity where I will be flying, and eventually instructing, in a 1971 Beechcraft Sierra A-24-R. I have a few hundred hours in complex aircraft with a 50/50 mix of high and low wing. I have never been in a Beechcraft, let alone a Sierra.

I am looking for general advice specific to this make/model. Things to watch out for... 'Gotchas' that are not typically a concern in other complex aircraft... The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly, so to speak.

What say ye?
 
Nail the airspeed on landing. If you bounce, add a healthy blip of power before re-settling, or you risk porpoising. It's a peculiar habit of the whole musketeer series. Landings are glorious when you get them right. Frustrating until then. The shock disks in the landing gear act like pogo-stick springs so too much energy 'down' on landing sends you back up, but quite a bit slower than you started. I think the third bounce without adding power will collapse the nose gear, typically.

You will enjoy the room in the cockpit and the second door. You will miss the 10-15kts that you were owed with 200 ponies under the cowl. Your mechanic hates the rube-goldbergian nosewheel retraction mechanism, it makes a cessna RG's froglegs look well-designed. :D

Honest plane in the air. Pretty easy to put where you want it. I think they're under-rated, save their appalling slowness and lack of any sort of speed mod.
 
schmookeeg said:
Nail the airspeed on landing. If you bounce, add a healthy blip of power before re-settling, or you risk porpoising. It's a peculiar habit of the whole musketeer series. Landings are glorious when you get them right. Frustrating until then. The shock disks in the landing gear act like pogo-stick springs so too much energy 'down' on landing sends you back up, but quite a bit slower than you started. I think the third bounce without adding power will collapse the nose gear, typically.

You will enjoy the room in the cockpit and the second door. You will miss the 10-15kts that you were owed with 200 ponies under the cowl. Your mechanic hates the rube-goldbergian nosewheel retraction mechanism, it makes a cessna RG's froglegs look well-designed. :D

Honest plane in the air. Pretty easy to put where you want it. I think they're under-rated, save their appalling slowness and lack of any sort of speed mod.
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Thank you for this...

I was not aware it had the rubber doughnut suspension but I have a bit of time in a Mooney M20J so I am accustomed to the fun involved with that kind of suspension. In my mind I have already established that it is like a somewhat larger M20J. Am I far off in that assessment?

Your comment on the speed got me back into the POH (I had not read that far ahead yet) to review the Cruise Performance charts. At 75% power cruise is in the 135ish knot range. That does seem a bit slow for something that can carry six seats! o_O
 
It's not 6 seats, especially if it's used for teaching. Even the "6 seat" Sierra are 4+2 infants.
 
My mooney time is far less than my musketeer time, so I couldn't comment with any authority. Mooneys have 3 shock discs, and the baby beeches have six, so I think the problem is more pronounced. Also the beeches sit a LOT higher on their wheels, so less of the ground effect slipperiness of the mooney. The beeches have some fat easily-manufactured wing airfoil, not the laminar flow slick mooney wing.

So my guess is that it's like a "much larger, much more draggy, taller and bouncier" mooney, but someone else should chime in on that comparison. :D

I might seem critical of em, but I really have a soft spot for the baby beeches, I think they're fantastic little things for what they are. I've owned two now.
 
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wheaties said:
It's not 6 seats, especially if it's used for teaching. Even the "6 seat" Sierra are 4+2 infants.
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That makes more sense. The pictures I have seen left me wondering how anyone would get back into that third row. I get to meet the plane tomorrow. I mentioned the third row because of this placard listed in the POH:

Screenshot_20200225-113248_Adobe Acrobat.jpg

I guess back in 1971 it was not unusual for persons who would occupy child seats to be smokers. ;)
 
schmookeeg said:
You will enjoy the room in the cockpit and the second door.
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Being of a serial number less than MC-97, this particular example has only one door. :confused:

Looking more like a Mooney all the time. ;)
 
smv said:
I am coming into an opportunity where I will be flying, and eventually instructing, in a 1971 Beechcraft Sierra A-24-R. I have a few hundred hours in complex aircraft with a 50/50 mix of high and low wing. I have never been in a Beechcraft, let alone a Sierra.

I am looking for general advice specific to this make/model. Things to watch out for... 'Gotchas' that are not typically a concern in other complex aircraft... The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly, so to speak.

What say ye?
Click to expand...

Heed what @schmookeeg says in post 2. My experience with them is not from flying them but I’ve seen two of them nose in and collapse the nose gear. One of them caught on fire. That one was a actually a Sundowner of the Musketeer family.
 
luvflyin said:
Heed what @schmookeeg says in post 2. My experience with them is not from flying them but I’ve seen two of them nose in and collapse the nose gear. One of them caught on fire. That one was a actually a Sundowner of the Musketeer family.
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Ahh Yes. Thank you. I did not intend to gloss over that point. It is good to know in advance that this one is more susceptible than the average airplane and exactly the kind of information I was looking for...
 
Spent years flying the Sundowner, fixed gear version of its big sister Sierra.

FLY THE NUMBERS

Make sure the donuts are not hard and cracked otherwise your landings will produce ripples in the wing.
 
I did my commercial in a Sierra. I liked it, I don't recall any gotchas. As already mentioned, very comfortable, but under powered and ssssloooowww. The only issue I ran into was a hot start which, of course, occurred on my check ride...
 
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Ditto the keeping to the numbers on landings. Nail the speed every time and you’ll be fine.

One thing about the wing in the Sierra and it’s Beech relatives: when it’s ready to stall-it stalls. Like immediately. If you hold the yoke back for a deeper stall, you will quickly be seeing nothing but dirt outside, and one wing will drop towards an incipient spin. But flown correctly it’s really no problem. A lot of students were taught on that wing, so if they can do it...

Also, as many have mentioned, the speed is less than you’d expect. I’ve heard that oftentimes something around up to 10 knots can be obtained by straightening out the rigging. Apparently it’s easy to get these planes out of rig.

But roomy cockpit, and capability to fit all the kids makes for a versatile machine. I would check out the type clubs for detailed insider-info if you’re looking to buy. Oh - check out the airframe total time, I think there may be a time limit on the attachment hardware. Maybe 10,000 hrs?
 
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These are great airplanes. Built like a tank (hence the speed issue) and easy to fly. Don't let anyone scare you on the "donuts" - if these airplanes are flown sloppily on final approach AND a go around is not done if on a unstable approach, they can porpoise a little bit and maybe cause a problem. I own and have flown a Sundowner (fixed gear version of this air frame) for several years and have never had a problem.

The best thing about these airplanes is that they are powered by a Lycoming IO-360 which in my opinion is a great engine - really trouble free.

Make sure and join the Beech Aero Club before you do anything. That group / forum will provide a huge amount of help and information and rapidly increase your knowledge when it comes to the Sundowner, Sierra, or Duchess airframe. The $25 will be the best money that you can spend to get the information that you are looking for. http://www.beechaeroclub.org/home/

Good luck!
 
Thank you all for the feedback. I got to meet the plane today. It is a one-door, four-seat version. It has a fairly simple panel (Apollo GX60, Bendix/King NAV/COM, and an S-Tec 30) currently but the owners are planning on installing a GNX375 as soon as they can find someone to do it in a reasonable amount of time. Just need to submit my numbers to the insurance company and get 25 hours in it and I'll be golden.

:happydance:
 
It's roomy inside. I always liked how the ailerons felt and how nicely it rolls into turns.

Now onto the bad....it requires about as much runway as a B52 to operate, it climbs about as well as a Cessna 150 with two overweight pilots, and it will lose in a race to a fixed gear Cessna 182.
 
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Prone to bird strikes from the rear, but they said that about my Arrow as well. Almost bought one, loved the way it handled.

Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk
 
luvflyin said:
Heed what @schmookeeg says in post 2. My experience with them is not from flying them but I’ve seen two of them nose in and collapse the nose gear. One of them caught on fire. That one was a actually a Sundowner of the Musketeer family.
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It's not just about nailing the speed. Be very careful about flaring high and pulling too much power out. Internally it looks and feels like a single engine Duchess.....but a Duchess is far more forgiving on landing than a Sierra. Pull the power to idle too early and the Sierra drops like a brick and as long as you don't break anything, you'll get to try again!
 
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Fearless Tower said:
It's not just about nailing the speed. Be very careful about flaring high and pulling too much power out. Internally it looks and feels like a single engine Duchess.....but a Duchess is far more forgiving on landing than a Sierra. Pull the power to idle too early and the Sierra drops like a brick and as long as you don't break anything, you'll get to try again!
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Hmm. That might have been the case in the accidents saw, I dunno. Maybe a combination of both bad speed and bad flare. I just know all of sudden they was hippity a hoppity porpoising down the runway and then, smack,
 
luvflyin said:
Hmm. That might have been the case in the accidents saw, I dunno. Maybe a combination of both bad speed and bad flare. I just know all of sudden they was hippity a hoppity porpoising down the runway and then, smack,
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Hershey wing Cherokees are the same way. Carry power right to the flare and chop. Do it before and you get issues.
 
If the weather holds out, I will be picking up the airplane on Saturday to start getting familiar with it... Looking through the POH and reading through the "Takeoff" checklist it says: "FLAPS - CHECK and SET" but I can find nothing else in the POH that specifies a flap setting for takeoff. The flap indicator shows "UP / 10 / 20 / DN". I know that if you try taking off in an M20J with the flaps up you are going to eat up a lot of runway, but the M20 has an area on the indicator for "TAKEOFF".

The first line of the Sierra's "CLIMB" checklist says "FLAPS - UP" so I am assuming flaps are used for takeoff, but I cannot support that assumption with anything I see in the POH.

So... does the Sierra like the takeoff with clean wings or am I going to need to use flaps?
 
I don't have a POH available, but with a bit of Sierra time (years ago), I know takeoffs were done with the first notch of flaps. That was in a later serial-number model, though. The details of flap settings usually show in the "Amplified Procedures" heading of the Normal Procedures section, after the checklists, but, your plane may have the old-style minimalist POH.
 
Jim Carpenter said:
I don't have a POH available, but with a bit of Sierra time (years ago), I know takeoffs were done with the first notch of flaps. That was in a later serial-number model, though. The details of flap settings usually show in the "Amplified Procedures" heading of the Normal Procedures section, after the checklists, but, your plane may have the old-style minimalist POH.
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There is nothing like that. Which actually kind of surprises me seeing as how the POH I have is actually a revision fom nine years after the airplane was built. I am certain it applies because it is valid for a range of serial numbers and the serial number of this specific airplane falls well within that range.

This is all I have for Before Takeoff, Takeoff, and Climb.

20200305_112927.jpg
Screenshot_20200305-111414_Adobe Acrobat.jpg
The rest of Section IV progresses through the flight sequence and where you would normally expect to find the "Amplified Procedures" it talks about Environmental Systems, Cold Weather Operation, and Icing Conditions. Then immediately goes into Section V.
 
Right, maybe that Amplified Procedures is a Cessna POH thing. I looked in the Duke's (1981) manual this morning, and it doesn't have anything like that either. Last gasp for info, there may be clues in your performance charts, by noting the difference between normal and short (maximum performance) takeoff. And, if there's no notations in the limitations, (lots of planes list "use of flaps other than zero for takeoff not approved), then there's no prohibition against. It becomes a pilot preference kind of thing. I don't recall how or why I used flaps 10 for t/o in that Sierra, probably just the way I was taught. Try both, see which is better! You will undoubtedly get more direct info from the Beech Aero club, or maybe over on Beechtalk forum.
 
Nothing about Short or Soft fields. Only "Normal". However, your comment did get me to take a closer look at the Normal Takeoff performance chart...

20200305_145551.jpg

For some reason it looks like my last reply never got posted... I do plan on trying it both ways (UP and 10°) and see which one works out better...
 
Very interesting Thread! I know next to nothing about the Musketeer family of aircraft but they have always interested me some. I just like different aircraft I suppose, like Grummans haha.
 
Funny thiing is, this POH goes on to warn the pilot about the dangers of drugs, alcohol, and SCUBA diving (and probably wild women and not attending church on Sundays if I read further) but nothing beyond a "Normal" takeoff and I had to dig to find the recommended flap setting for that! o_O
 
Rented Sierras and then bought one, what you are flying is a Musketeer Super R, all real Sierras from 1972 on have 2 cabin doors, the Sierra are great for camping out in. They are as fast as an Piper Arrow if you know how to fly them. I use to race Sierras in country air races. mine had the 5 & 6 seat and the larger back door, the Sierra is great for crosswind landing I have landed in 45 kts crosswinds. On landings fly the speed and don't land on the nose gear go around if your about too, don't land flat.
 
skyking2169 said:
Rented Sierras and then bought one, what you are flying is a Musketeer Super R, all real Sierras from 1972 on have 2 cabin doors,
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This particular model was built in '71. The POH says it is a Sierra (A24R) and makes reference to both one-door and two-door models. Are you saying it is actually a Musketeer with the wrong documents, or that is is essentially a Musketeer for all practical purposes in all aspects except the name?


Screenshot_20200308-112155_Adobe Acrobat.jpg
 
Well sort of, I also had a demo flight before I bought mine in a 71 Super R. But it really don't matter, A24R was a Sierra in 72, in late 73 the B24R,then in 77 the C24R. that is more info of the history of the aircraft than anything else. Therefore I have flown all 3 models.
 
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I have a couple of hours in one. They are a little more solid than a Mooney, with better control precision than a Piper or Cessna but not as precise as a Mooney. They fly wonderfully, but are hopelessly slow for a retract.
 
smv said:
Thank you for this...

I was not aware it had the rubber doughnut suspension but I have a bit of time in a Mooney M20J so I am accustomed to the fun involved with that kind of suspension. In my mind I have already established that it is like a somewhat larger M20J. Am I far off in that assessment?

Your comment on the speed got me back into the POH (I had not read that far ahead yet) to review the Cruise Performance charts. At 75% power cruise is in the 135ish knot range. That does seem a bit slow for something that can carry six seats! o_O
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I think the Mooney has fewer doughnuts. It feels WAY more confident when landing than does a Sierra.

135 ish? Yeah, given enough tailwind.
 
I want to be clear though, especially after my negative comments. I like a Sierra in many ways. If you are taught proper technique, you won’t have any porpoising problems and it has a tight, solid feel to it. If I couldn’t afford a Mooney and didn’t need speed and range, I would definitely consider a Sierra. A Musketeer, probably not. They are REALLY slow.
 
Well like I said I use to race the Sierra in cross country air races, and I had some drag races too, the Sierra will out run a Tiger, Cessna Cutlass RG and will keep pace with a Piper Arrow. The Sierra will out Dog Fight any of them too, does a sweet roll.
 
Thank you again for all the advice. Just coming off a bronchial viral infection of some kind the end of last week I did not think it wise to try to jump into any airplane on Saturday, let alone a new-to-me one. Hopefully tomorrow will be the day.

:cool:
 
Well poop....

Screenshot_20200310-072950_Pilot.jpg
 
Mission: Complete!

Well, Step 1 anyway. Took first flight and positioned it closer to my home. Flew 1.5 on the Hobbs. Did one t-n-g along the way and greased it into a nice landing on a 3900x60 runway and had it stopped well before halfway down the runway.

Sitting in it the first time made me think of getting into a Big Rig. SOOOO ROOMY!!

Now comes the fun part. Figuring out all the configurations for the various IFR phases.

a24r.jpg
 
Are you a member of beechaeroclub.org? It's the type club for Musketeers/Sundowners/Sierras. Lots of good folks and information. Highly recommend you join.
 
Papa Pilot said:
Are you a member of beechaeroclub.org? It's the type club for Musketeers/Sundowners/Sierras. Lots of good folks and information. Highly recommend you join.
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Thank you.
 
Wow - nice looking airplane. Send pictures of the panel and interior.

You will love the room and the pilot's side door (where it should be in all airplanes). So you are 10-15 kts slower than other 200hp airplanes - who cares? You are more comfortable and not rubbing shoulders with anyone.

Also - I can tell from the photo that most likely the "donuts" are in good shape.

Have fun with your new airplane and keep us updated on your ownership experience. And join the Beech Aero Club. That is very important.
 
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