Beech Sierra B24R200 opinion

[sdflyer]

Hi,
I'm just wondering if someone could share some experience flying Beech Sierra. Any information about positive/negative sides, flying tips, and etc. are appreciated.

Thanks

 

[Ken Ibold]

The ones with doors on both sides are neat. The ones with the little jump seats in the back are neat. They're slow, but competent. Pretty good bang for the buck in the current market.

 

[jesse]

I have some time in one in the past and I would fly one again today. That said-- It wasn't really that great of an airplane in my opinion. Not very good at short field and slow. But the benefit is that it has a *LOT* of room inside.

 

[Henning]

Hi,
I'm just wondering if someone could share some experience flying Beech Sierra. Any information about positive/negative sides, flying tips, and etc. are appreciated.

Thanks

Roomy, slow, easy to fly. Doors on both sides is kinda nice. Would be a pretty decent airplane with about 50 more HP.

 

[EdFred]

I'd part it out and sell it for scrap. I will NEVER, EVER fly in one of those pieces of crap again. Horrible performance in every imaginable category.

 

[poadeleted20]

What Henning said -- big, roomy, slow, and built like a brick outhouse. You can probably operate a Cherokee Six for the same annual budget (difference in insurance cost makes up for difference in direct operating cost), and get more room and speed.

 

[Baron 55]

I've flown them a few hundred hours. As the others say, roomy, decent useful load, no tricks to flying them. Very stable and solid platform, which was a plus in my windy, turbulent area [Colorado]. They are fairly docile handling planes, though not speedsters and you do not want to load them up and try to climb out on a high density altitude day [though that goes for many similar planes]. I did my commercial and CFI in them, very easy to fly and very forgiving. For the horsepower [200], there are planes that are faster...and, yes, another 50 Hp would be very nice, though I have taken them down from our high-alt. area to the coast and been pleased with the performance down near sea level.

A friend owned one a couple years [I never owned one, just rented], and she had no unusual mx problems though she put a lot of hours on it.

 

[gismo]

A friend has one and loves it. They do fly well (typical Beech control feel) albeit slowly for the power. You can get the same speed out of a 182 at about the same fuel flow. Then again they're not much slower than an Arrow.

 

[Ken Ibold]

You can probably operate a Cherokee Six for the same annual budget (difference in insurance cost makes up for difference in direct operating cost), and get more room and speed.

But you will pay twice as much for the Six. OK, maybe not twice, but 1.5x.

 

[sdflyer]

OK thanks everyone for responses

Tomorrow I'm going to get checked out on 1975 Beech Sierra. I used to fly Turbo Arrow III from the same FBO, but things changed two weeks ago after someone forgot to put gears down...

 

[poadeleted20]

But you will pay twice as much for the Six. OK, maybe not twice, but 1.5x.

...and you'll get that much more back when you sell it, too, and have an easier time selling it, to boot.

 

[sdflyer]

OK guys another question. I flew Beech Sierra yesterday, I sort of have mixed feelings about airplane. One thing was really weird! Check out guy told me that I don't really want to pull engine to idle even on the run up. Why? The engine may quit? Huh?
The POH says during run up after checking the mags and exercising the prop, throttle should go to "quick idle". "Quick idle" how quick is that? Is it OK for Beech Sierra engine quit on idle after some time? IMHO it woudn't be ok for any other plane I flown

 

[tonycondon]

does the sierra have a lycoming? i know lycoming recommends "idling" at around 1000 rpms to help keep the cam lubricated. that may be what he was talking about. for the most part, the engine should run at idle.

 

[2002 Harv]

Or keep the tach time running for renters...

John

 

[poadeleted20]

i know lycoming recommends "idling" at around 1000 rpms to help keep the cam lubricated.

Where's that written?

 

[tonycondon]

Where's that written?

Its written on the Citabria Forum. That means it must be true right?

I did find this though: http://www.lycoming.com/support/publications/service-letters/pdfs/SL185B.pdf

Top of page 2 recommends a ground operating speed of 1000-1200 rpms. doesnt mention cam lubrication though, mostly keeping spark plugs hot enough to avoid fouling.

The cam lube reasoning does make sense to me though, particularly if the engine is cold and the oil is therefore rich. Either way it is manufacturers recommendation to run about 1000 on the ground.

 

[jesse]

Its written on the Citabria Forum. That means it must be true right?

I did find this though: http://www.lycoming.com/support/publications/service-letters/pdfs/SL185B.pdf

Top of page 2 recommends a ground operating speed of 1000-1200 rpms. doesnt mention cam lubrication though, mostly keeping spark plugs hot enough to avoid fouling.

The cam lube reasoning does make sense to me though, particularly if the engine is cold and the oil is therefore rich. Either way it is manufacturers recommendation to run about 1000 on the ground.

It's also implied in many aircraft checklists straight out of the POH.

 

[poadeleted20]

Its written on the Citabria Forum. That means it must be true right?

I did find this though: http://www.lycoming.com/support/publications/service-letters/pdfs/SL185B.pdf
Top of page 2 recommends a ground operating speed of 1000-1200 rpms.

The full quote is, "The engine should be operated at engine speeds between 1000 and 1200 RPM after starting and during the initial warm-up period." [emphasis added] Once the engine is warmed up (oil temp in the green arc), that no longer applies. Also, that SB is entitled "The Use of Higher Octane Aviation Fuel, 100LL Blue or 100 Green, for Engines Rated for 80/87 Octane Fuel." The recommendation may or may not apply to engines rated for 91/96 or 100/130 octane fuel, although I do recommend it for initial warm-up of all engines running leaded fuel regardless of the engine's minimum octane rating.

 

[poadeleted20]

It's also implied in many aircraft checklists straight out of the POH.

Can you provide some examples?

 

[tonycondon]

Cessna 172P calls for 1000 rpms, IIRC

 

[flyersfan31]

I thought the purpose of pulling the throttle to idle on run-up was to confirm that the engine WOULDN'T die.

That advice just doesn't seem right to me. Ground ops at 1000+/-RPM generally, if I'm not mistaken, is intended to keep the battery charged. I'm no A&P, so take that with a grain of salt.

The Beech Musketeer series is built for comfort, not for speed. Handling is pleasant, certainly when compared to the Piper Cherokee types. No exp in a Cherokee 6, so I can't comment on that. Big baggage door is nice. 2 doors in a low wing is also nice. Big panel with lots of room for expansion, plus great visibility all around.

 

[jesse]

Can you provide some examples?

You mean...my word..isn't enough Ron?

 

[poadeleted20]

Cessna 172P calls for 1000 rpms, IIRC

I don't remember seeing that in the C-172P POH.

 

[poadeleted20]

This "1000 RPM" thing is a good example of how various OWT's or out-of-context partial quotations become "book procedure" by the time they're on their third distorted retransmission. Example: Think about the number of folks who honestly believe (without having actually read the book) that there's a POH limitation prohibiting slips with flaps extended in all Cessna singles.

 

[tonycondon]

I don't remember seeing that in the C-172P POH.

On page 4-22, in the Cold Weather Operating section, it recommends a warmup period at 1000 RPMs, like Lycoming.

This "1000 RPM" thing is a good example of how various OWT's or out-of-context partial quotations become "book procedure" by the time they're on their third distorted retransmission. Example: Think about the number of folks who honestly believe (without having actually read the book) that there's a POH limitation prohibiting slips with flaps extended in all Cessna singles.

Oh like the Designated Examiner for my last PP student?

 

[KennyFlys]

1984 AIM, C172P:
Page 4-8, "Before Takeoff" Checklist:
Line 12 (following run-up): Throttle --1000 RPM or LESS

But, 1000 is enough to start pulling you forward if brakes slip, particularly if you're on somewhat of a declining ramp. When I was flying that particular plane at SUS, I kept it more between 800-900 RPM.

Though I cannot find it in the AIM, I assume the "or less" is more of a safety issue. There's no need to sit there with excessive idle power and holding brakes.

Tony hit on the cold weather recommendation. But, that's when it becomes a need to condition the engine for safe use. I've seen folks sit there with idle speeds fast enough to sustain flight. Of course, these are usually the same ones who leave the primer pump on for thirty seconds and dump a pint of fuel on the ramp; and inside the cowling.

The only other reference to "1000 RPM" is in the "Starting Engine" Checklist in Line 8.

STARTER -- CHECK DISENGAGED (if starter were to remain engaged, ammeter would indicate full scale charge with engine running at 1000 RPM).

With regard to slips in the 172P:

Steep slips should be avoided with flap settings greater than 20° due to a slight tendency for the elevator to oscillate under certain combinations of airspeed, sideslip angle and center of gravity loadings.

That's a far cry from "prohibited." I'd be more interested in the student telling me why a control surface supposedly affected by air pressure is suddenly capable of oscillation.

 

[tonycondon]

Kenny I had a 1981 P model book.

The flap thing has wording that has changed apparently over the years. i am most familiar with the placard that states that "Slips are prohibited with full flaps extended" the key term being Full. there is a possibility of the so called Oscillations of Doom taking over. Jesse has a video of the Oscillations of Doom. Pretty Scary Stuff

 

[KennyFlys]

Kenny I had a 1981 P model book.

The flap thing has wording that has changed apparently over the years. i am most familiar with the placard that states that "Slips are prohibited with full flaps extended" the key term being Full. there is a possibility of the so called Oscillations of Doom taking over. Jesse has a video of the Oscillations of Doom. Pretty Scary Stuff

I'd like to see that if at all possible.

 

[jesse]

I'd like to see that if at all possible.

PM Sent.

 

[KennyFlys]

PM Sent.

Thank you! I appreciate that.

 

[poadeleted20]

On page 4-22, in the Cold Weather Operating section, it recommends a warmup period at 1000 RPMs, like Lycoming.

During the warmup period, yes, and that's consistent with Lycoming's recommendations, but not after the oil gets up into the green arc.

Oh like the Designated Examiner for my last PP student?

To quote Dr. Bruce, [sigh].

 

[poadeleted20]

Kenny I had a 1981 P model book.

The flap thing has wording that has changed apparently over the years. i am most familiar with the placard that states that "Slips are prohibited with full flaps extended" the key term being Full.

If you find a C-172 with such a placard, suggest to the owner that s/he recheck the C-172 TCDS, as no such placard is currently required by the FAA, but one that uses the word "avoid" is so required.

 

[KennyFlys]

If you find a C-172 with such a placard, suggest to the owner that s/he recheck the C-172 TCDS, as no such placard is currently required by the FAA, but one that uses the word "avoid" is so required.

TCDS? Help me out there. Thanks.

 

[tonycondon]

type Certificate Data Sheet

 

[t0r0nad0]

The 172N's that I fly have a placard that says, "Avoid slips when flaps deployed." It's not prohibited, but not recommended, thus I wouldn't use it unless absolutely necessary.

I was always taught to idle around 1200rpm (to avoid fouling the plugs) and with the mixture leaned (due to higher DA in the summer heat and humidity).

 

[sdflyer]

OK I went to the shop and talked to the mechanic. He is going to check Beech idle problem. Also I read POH again, but couldn't find any specific information about handling engine on idle except an expression - "fast idle" What a heck is "fast idle"? Is that sort of idle for a few second or faster? I couldn't find any explanation of that in POH

 

[jesse]

The 172N's that I fly have a placard that says, "Avoid slips when flaps deployed." It's not prohibited, but not recommended, thus I wouldn't use it unless absolutely necessary.

That logic does not work. If you fly enough--it's very likely the time will come where it will be "absolutely necessary" and you will not know how. You won't even think of it because you don't practice it.

The guy that crashed the 172 at 6Y9 would be alive today if he better knew: when to go around and how to slip. The first obviously being more important. But there wouldn't have been a need for the first if the second was a known skill to the pilot.

 

[t0r0nad0]

Don't get me wrong Jesse, I know how to slip, and I practice no-flap forward slips to land regularly. I do transition from a crab to a side-slip with flaps deployed while on short final in a cross-wind. I just obey the placard that as a matter of course, I don't do forward slips with the flaps deployed. If I'm too high on final and my engine works fine, I go around. If I'm too high on final and my engine isn't working, I'd have no problem doing a slip with the flaps deployed.

As far as the engine idling goes, after doing my mag/carb heat/suction/ammeter check at 1700rpm, the checklist does call for pulling the throttle all the way to idle. I was taught that you do this to make sure that the engine still runs, and even to pull on the carb heat while at idle to make sure it still runs even then.

 

[SCCutler]

PJ, I'd advise that, if you are going to be flying 172 a lot, you should try slips with the flaps out (at altitude) so you can experience what they are referencing on the placard, and know it is not a life-threatening situation. This way, if and when you need- really need- to slip the plane with flaps out, you'll know what to expect, will know that it won't kill you, and will not leave that potentially-vital tool out of your toolbox.

Sorta reminds me of when my Mom first got a car with ABS- she was braking to stop at an intersection, while driving in the rain, and (she said) "...the brakes made this terrible grinding noise, so I just rolled on through the intersection on the red light..." If she had known what the ABS was, how it worked and what its behavior felt and sounded like, she would have know it was normal, and allowed the ABS to help her.

 

[Ghery]

I don't do forward slips with the flaps deployed.

Not to be flip, but, how do you land in a crosswind? Personally, full flaps, low wing into the wind to maintain centerline and enough rudder to keep me lined up. And I have never experienced any elevator flutter in the 172 or 182. Go try it. You'll find this is overblown.