ClimbnSink
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Greg
I don't know why her fuel was low, never said I did. She knew her fuel was low and from that failure of aviating failed worse.
Beech BE-33 down in CT. Pilot survives
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I am quoting this post from another person to show the track and length of time to help peddles digest the possibility of fuel exhaustion...
It looks like she was airborne for less then 10 minutes... What is that , Maybe 3 gallons of fuel ?
....During any preflight and it being a low wing plane, you would figure she could have opened the fuel caps and glanced in to see the level...
Now, if she took off with less then 3 gallons...... then she wins the " almost Darwin" award for the year.... YMMV..... IMHO...
jkgoblue
Pre-takeoff checklist
Actually, she never stated she had low fuel. Pilots were just offering a fuel tank switch as a suggestion. I never heard her mention a fuel issue at anytime.
Checkout_my_Six
Touchdown! Greaser!
and what if the fuel vents were clogged?......I am quoting this post from another person to show the track and length of time to help peddles digest the possibility of fuel exhaustion...
It looks like she was airborne for less then 10 minutes... What is that , Maybe 3 gallons of fuel ?
During any preflight and it being a low wing plane, you would figure she could have opened the fuel caps and glanced in to see the level...
Now, if she took off with less then 3 gallons...... then she wins the " almost Darwin" award for the year.... YMMV..... IMHO...
Good news is the plane is still intact and the NTSB will be able to determine fuel on board..
ps... I "thought" the pilot had stated she ran out of fuel to first responders at the crash site.
,,,,
Pedals2Paddles
Cleared for Takeoff
I am quoting this post from another person to show the track and length of time to help peddles digest the possibility of fuel exhaustion... It looks like she was airborne for less then 10 minutes... What is that , Maybe 3 gallons of fuel ?
During any preflight and it being a low wing plane, you would figure she could have opened the fuel caps and glanced in to see the level...
Now, if she took off with less then 3 gallons...... then she wins the " almost Darwin" award for the year.... YMMV..... IMHO...
I'm not suggesting she didn't run out of fuel or that fuel exhaustion is not possible. I'm making the point that nobody here knows why she apparently ran out of fuel, and gross pilot error is simply not the only possibility. Most people here can comprehend this. Most people here understand the most likely is, yes, pilot error. But to make that blind assumption and post it all over the internet as if it is a fact like Climb and Stink routinely does is simply wrong.
If she indeed took off with a whopping 3 gallons of gas, her failures began long before this. It would mean she quite likely landed at that airport with 3 gallons left and was on fumes then too. And yes, major Darwin award winner. But I won't go making that accusation as if it is a known fact until it actually becomes a real known fact.
John Collins
En-Route
The Debs have a left-right-aux selector. The main tanks are 25 gallons each. The aux selector returns about 10 gallons of the excess fuel to the left main and is only authorized to be used for cruise flight. One takes off on the left, burns it down to allow for the excess, then uses the aux until near empty, then switches back to either the RH or LH tank. It is easy to mess up with this system.
An F33A has a simple left right tank selector and two 40 gallon tanks. In theory, one is not permitted to takeoff with less than 13 gallons of usable fuel in each main tank.
jkgoblue
Pre-takeoff checklist
So you can listen to the conversation on LiveATC. I don't know how to post the actual file but here's the link.
http://www.liveatc.net/archive.php?m=kbdr_app
124.07, Saturday 11/15 at 2100Z. I'm Experimental 9GZ, at it starts about 4 minutes in. She is in 4548S but you can't hear all of her conversation, just the beginning of her problems. She became quite upset later on...
http://www.liveatc.net/archive.php?m=kbdr_app
124.07, Saturday 11/15 at 2100Z. I'm Experimental 9GZ, at it starts about 4 minutes in. She is in 4548S but you can't hear all of her conversation, just the beginning of her problems. She became quite upset later on...
Dav8or
Final Approach
Dav8or
Final Approach
I listened to it. I could hear her ever say she was having fuel problems. I heard other pilots suggesting the fuel selector. This ran out of fuel theory is highly likely nothing but internet crap from pathetic people.
I did hear a pilot that did not handle an emergency well at all. The audio combined with the ground track suggests she panicked, froze and got very confused. I'm glad it worked out well in the end and I'm sure her family and friends are very, very relieved. I would be surprised if she chose to fly again. She learned something that day. She doesn't do well under high pressure.
comanchepilot
En-Route
if it was a fuel in the wrong tank type of incident - what was she doing flying so low that she did not have time to switch among the tanks to find one with fuel?
How many people fly every single tank dry? Geesh - thats absolutely nuts.
How many people fly every single tank dry? Geesh - thats absolutely nuts.
ClimbnSink
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Greg
One of the news reports says there is fuel in the wreckage. So perhaps it is a pilot selector selecting fault(worse then running out imo.) Or perhaps it was a classic engine failure, at 4,000' with an airport at 12 o'clock and one mile. No matter why the engine quit, she sucks at flying.
.......
and what if the fuel vents were clogged?......
This is a possibility, it happened to a friend not long ago. He thought he had been drawing off the tips on his Comanche, but the vents were clogged and the system will draw off the mains in that event. When he switch back to the mains for the landing, he found it near empty.
This is a possibility, it happened to a friend not long ago. He thought he had been drawing off the tips on his Comanche, but the vents were clogged and the system will draw off the mains in that event. When he switch back to the mains for the landing, he found it near empty.
Don't these planes have fuel gauges???
....
Pedals2Paddles
Cleared for Takeoff
You may be onto something there. There may have been a news station indicating a fuel problem, but it seems that is no longer the case. Likely erroneous and here we all latched onto it. In fact:
http://foxct.com/2014/11/15/a-small-plane-crashes-near-home-in-clinton/
So this may have absolutely nothing to do with fuel at all and that was a bad report.
But, clearly her handling was not good based on the audio and the location of SNC. Very lucky.
Don't these planes have fuel gauges???
Yep, but rarely used. This was a point he addressed.
comanchepilot
En-Route
Don't these planes have fuel gauges???
a) Comanche fuel gauges are an interesting quirky part of the entire system;
b) fuel gauges are only required to be accurate when empty - which somewhat detracts from their usability . . .
Pedals2Paddles
Cleared for Takeoff
This is a common myth. Not true.
SixPapaCharlie
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Sixer
Maybe she fueled her plane then went to the bathroom.
The FBO saw her walk away from the plane and so they tow it back to the big hanger over near the flight school.
One of the students hoping to start working on his complex endorsement calls the FBO to pull out his "new to him" plane he just bought which in a weird twist of irony happens to be a sibling plane to hers but instead of N454BS, the tail number is N4548S
She doesn't notice when she gets back from the restroom and just hops in.
The student hadn't had a chance to call the FBO and ask them to fuel it though.
She noticed the gauges all said low fuel but being a master fuel handler knew she had filled it up and was going to just do the calcs as she flew.
She crashed, the flight school recognized their mistake and to cover it up, they took N454BS and had it repainted to look like a Cessna 421C Golden Eagle and quickly sold it to a guy in the UK.
I can't figure out why nobody is even considering this as an option. Happens more frequently than you probably realize.
The FBO saw her walk away from the plane and so they tow it back to the big hanger over near the flight school.
One of the students hoping to start working on his complex endorsement calls the FBO to pull out his "new to him" plane he just bought which in a weird twist of irony happens to be a sibling plane to hers but instead of N454BS, the tail number is N4548S
She doesn't notice when she gets back from the restroom and just hops in.
The student hadn't had a chance to call the FBO and ask them to fuel it though.
She noticed the gauges all said low fuel but being a master fuel handler knew she had filled it up and was going to just do the calcs as she flew.
She crashed, the flight school recognized their mistake and to cover it up, they took N454BS and had it repainted to look like a Cessna 421C Golden Eagle and quickly sold it to a guy in the UK.
I can't figure out why nobody is even considering this as an option. Happens more frequently than you probably realize.
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Put the toad down and step back, no, you can't have one more lick...
Dav8or
Final Approach
ClimbnSink
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Greg
I love youThat's OK. I can forgive her that. You just suck at being a human being.
Dav8or
Final Approach
From the audio recording of ATC and the supposed flight track posted below,
She asked for vectors and they first told her to fly a heading of 360 which I think she acknowledged. Then ATC changed their mind and instructed her to fly 180, something about landing traffic I think. By the time she got that vector, she'd already passed the airport and so flew on looking for an airport that wasn't there. Although ATC did say at the beginning that she was on top of it and could circle down. She didn't seem to comprehend that.
She asked for vectors and they first told her to fly a heading of 360 which I think she acknowledged. Then ATC changed their mind and instructed her to fly 180, something about landing traffic I think. By the time she got that vector, she'd already passed the airport and so flew on looking for an airport that wasn't there. Although ATC did say at the beginning that she was on top of it and could circle down. She didn't seem to comprehend that.
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ClimbnSink
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Greg
Honey it ain't ATCs fault. She reported engine trouble, ATC said there is an airport 12 o'clock one mile. The story should end on the ground at that airport. Except for either the embarrassment of having the wrong tank selected or the expense of a new motor.
From the audio recording of ATC and the supposed flight track posted below,
She asked for vectors and they first told her to fly a heading of 360 which I think she acknowledged. Then ATC changed their mind and instructed her to fly 180, something about landing traffic I think. By the time she got that vector, she'd already passed the airport and so flew on looking for an airport that wasn't there. Although ATC did say at the beginning that she was on top of it and could circle down. She didn't seem to comprehend that.
Pedals2Paddles
Cleared for Takeoff
I just listened to it. You're hearing it all wrong. He did her all the favors in the word.
He told her repeatedly the airport was right in front of her, then right under her and she should circle down to it. She said she couldn't see it and asked for vectors to the airport that was right under her.
The controller was giving her vectors to circle and land since she wasn't comprehending this action on her own. He first gave her 360 to get her into a right turn circling to look down at the airport. But quickly changed to 180. He said the wind will be favoring landing from the south, so he had her circle to the south. This was a very smart thing to do. He was literally trying to vector her to final less than a mile away from the airport she was on top of. Since she was to paniced to just land at the airport that was right under her without guidance. The entire time, she was literally on top of SNC. She was told repeatedly the airport would be off her side, distance and direction. She just kept flying off into la la land.
All she said was "engine trouble". Nothing at all about fuel.
Agreed 100%...
What part of " airport 12 o clock and one mile" did she not understand..
..
silver-eagle
En-Route
Couldn't see it because it was already under the nose. Lost SA as soon as the engine started failing. Didn't listing to ATC *OR* because of all the help she was getting, didn't hear them.Agreed 100%...
What part of " airport 12 o clock and one mile" did she not understand..
I'm not sure what I would do if the engine quit on me. I've had issues with the car out on the highway at rushhour and handled it fine. I did have an electrical failure at altitude. Handled that fine too (big fan still turning). Never had an engine quit and prefer it that way too. Let's hope if or when, I can handle it calm cool and collected.
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Bro do you even lift
for now I'm not going to judge her handling of engine trouble, as we don't know the facts, but I'm kinda thinking "sun in my eyes" should have been an easy 'turn slightly away from the sun' fix. not much thinking there....
nauga
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Mantis Toboggan, MD
Earlier you said she reported low fuel. I think you've got a problem with your sources.
Nauga,
and his source error correction
ClimbnSink
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Greg
After the insurance company buys her a new plane and she aces her 709 ride will you go flying with her? Backseat of course, having a set of controls shows no faith.Earlier you said she reported low fuel. I think you've got a problem with your sources.
Nauga,
and his source error correction
Nachos
And the funny truth
azure
Final Approach
FWIW I could easily have been in the same position as you. I came on that frequency about a half hour later, 124.07 was my departure frequency from Danbury, where I picked up a dog for a PnP mission to Burlington. Though I'd had no idea of what had just happened, it does hit a bit close to home hearing about it later.
I'm just glad she is okay.
Dav8or
Final Approach
It's sad that we feel the need to judge anything about her tragedy. I too am guilty. These damn "never again" threads are worthless 80% of the time. I really try to avoid them because one can rarely learn anything from them that they don't already know. Usually, pilots just gravitate to these types of threads so they can reaffirm that something like this will never, ever happen to them. One way they can really drive that point home is by judging the accident pilot and throwing them under the bus.
I made a mistake posting in this thread and am guilty of pointless speculation and judgement. I think I'm done with it. I'm glad she's OK and I hope I'm still flying at 62.
John Collins
En-Route
From a post on BeechTalk: