Beech Barron Down In NE.

Geico266

Geico266

Touchdown! Greaser!
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They are garden-variety airplanes, so that wouldn't be my first assumption. North Platte is a major fuel stop, so the help is generally pretty dependable. But anything is possible.
Geico266 said:
I wonder if they put the correct fuel in it. :confused:
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Geico266 said:
I wonder if they put the correct fuel in it. :confused:
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it would not make it 10 minutes
or 11 miles.. IMHO..

Unless it had just enough octane to slowly kill the pistons


sad deal..no matter what
 
"There was a freezing drizzle and light snow in the area when the crash happened, National Weather Service meteorologist Shawn Jacobs said Saturday."
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No offense, but it seems kind of stupid- even in a FIKI certified aircraft short of an airliner with bleed air hot wings- to take off into freezing drizzle. Am I missing something here? It would seem that such a situation would give a very high risk of ice buildup behind the protection of the boots.
 
Which airplanes are you thinking have hot wings?

SteveinIndy said:
No offense, but it seems kind of stupid- even in a FIKI certified aircraft short of an airliner with bleed air hot wings- to take off into freezing drizzle. Am I missing something here? It would seem that such a situation would give a very high risk of ice buildup behind the protection of the boots.
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SteveinIndy said:
No offense, but it seems kind of stupid- even in a FIKI certified aircraft short of an airliner with bleed air hot wings- to take off into freezing drizzle. Am I missing something here? It would seem that such a situation would give a very high risk of ice buildup behind the protection of the boots.
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no doubt it would.
remember they are not tested beyond "moderate" conditions for FIKI ( and that test is 6 minutes I belive) you are a test pilot beyond that... most hot wing aircraft in 121 will only depart into light fz drizzle, beyond that forget it. SLD ice can bring down ANYTHING and the conditions here sure seem ripe for this hazard...boots can be rendered useless in a very short amount of time.
 
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wabower said:
They are garden-variety airplanes, so that wouldn't be my first assumption. North Platte is a major fuel stop, so the help is generally pretty dependable. But anything is possible.
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Send the new kid out in the freezing rain?:dunno:
 
OK, throw in all ten of those along with the three turbine conversions. Probably a couple Rotax and a few Briggs and Strattons too.

Henning said:
Except the 56TC with a TIO-541 Lycoming.
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N801BH said:
it would not make it 10 minutes
or 11 miles.. IMHO..

Unless it had just enough octane to slowly kill the pistons


sad deal..no matter what
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Or he switched from the mains to the auxes after T/O pretty typical for Beech operators who are supposed to take off and land on the mains. I used to always swap to auxes after I set power to cruise climb, run them dry then switch back to mains. With the 310 I wait an hour to switch to auxes otherwise I pump return fuel overboard.

If he landed with an hour of fuel onboard he would have had taken 10 gallons in the mains on top of 15 in gas.
 
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SteveinIndy said:
No offense, but it seems kind of stupid- even in a FIKI certified aircraft short of an airliner with bleed air hot wings- to take off into freezing drizzle. Am I missing something here? It would seem that such a situation would give a very high risk of ice buildup behind the protection of the boots.
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Nope, not missing much, pretty stupid to launch into icing.
 
wabower said:
OK, throw in all ten of those along with the three turbine conversions. Probably a couple Rotax and a few Briggs and Strattons too.
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No need to get snide and snippy, and between the 56 and A56 there were near a hundred of them.
 
Out of ~7,800 built? Should we print an extra edition to the paper?

Henning said:
No need to get snide and snippy, and between the 56 and A56 there were near a hundred of them.
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I wonder if freezing rain isn't the culprit in several accidents being discussed.

The weather has certainly been right for it.

Number one thing that will keep me on the ground, even if unreported, but conditions are conducive.
 
taters said:
best one they made.
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If by "best" you mean fastest, I'd agree.

But by the definitions most use to include some semblance of reliability and parts availability, definitely not. Plus you've got no pressurization on a plane that goes fastest at FL250, and engines with no intercoolers that do a bad job up there.
 
saw a picture of the wreckage on the NTSB homepage. not much left.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
If by "best" you mean fastest, I'd agree.

But by the definitions most use to include some semblance of reliability and parts availability, definitely not. Plus you've got no pressurization on a plane that goes fastest at FL250, and engines with no intercoolers that do a bad job up there.
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It is the only piston twin specifically endorsed by OPEC.

That has to count for something.
 
Alexb2000 said:
It is the only piston twin specifically endorsed by OPEC.

That has to count for something.
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Nah, you're thinking of the Duke.

Same engines, draggier airplane, so significantly worse MPG. Plus the tail falls off repeatedly.
 
Alexb2000 said:
I wonder if freezing rain isn't the culprit in several accidents being discussed.

The weather has certainly been right for it.

Number one thing that will keep me on the ground, even if unreported, but conditions are conducive.
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Very likely, climbing in ice puts it further back on the bottom of the wing,as well as the top, not good IMO.:(
 
Not making any assumptions here as to the cause of the crash, but has anyone gone back to look at ADDS or other historical data to see the icing forecast at the time of the crash? Is there a way to get this historical data somewhere to check?

Some, but not all Barons were certificated as approved for FIKI. Mine has this certification with a TKS installation, which does help to protect the entire flying surfaces. It can be overcome especially perhaps in freezing precip and does not substitute invincibility over common sense and planning. There were a few flights over Lake Michigan where even the fast movers were calling for altitude changes, and I lost around 10knots at most with the TKS on. However, there was a lot of careful looking at the wings and tail, watching the unprotected areas to see how much ice was actually there, and keeping an eye on the GPS for the nearest airport if needed. However, it does work well, and protects the props, wings, etc.

No speculation on the cause of the crash, but asking to see if there is a source for the historical ice forecasts on ADDS? Anyone know?
 
In my experience, losing 10 KTS with de-ice isn't uncommon, in fact it's pretty standard. I've lost 20-30 in the Navajo with some decent rime, and losing 5-10 in the 310 happens almost immediately. In no case have I ever felt the plane was becoming overwhelmed. Of course, I do try to stay out of the worst of it.

Regardless of the de-ice equipment, you will lose speed. Ice will build up on the antennas, nose bowls, etc and all that turns what was a reasonably slick airframe into a draggy one quickly. This by itself isn't a problem per se, as long as your control surfaces remain clean.

Asking for altitude changes is prudent in icing in most cases, regardless of size. We would do it regularly (normally a climb) even in the Cheyenne or Commander for the smallest bit of ice.

It's unlikely that ice would take the plane down itself. But it might create drag, the pilot might handle it poorly, and might end up slowing too much then having a stall/spin.
 
SteveinIndy said:
No offense, but it seems kind of stupid- even in a FIKI certified aircraft short of an airliner with bleed air hot wings- to take off into freezing drizzle. Am I missing something here? It would seem that such a situation would give a very high risk of ice buildup behind the protection of the boots.
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Seems you may be right. Recent reports here now have the pilot declaring "Mayday" minutes into the flight. No reports of bad or wrong fuel yet.
 
Geico266 said:
Seems you may be right. Recent reports here now have the pilot declaring "Mayday" minutes into the flight. No reports of bad or wrong fuel yet.
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Uggg.... Climbing in icing IMO is a bad idea which is why I chose not to when I got in some severe icing. I'm pretty sure the only reason I survived that was that I chose to not climb and I had manual waste gate turbos that I took full advantage of. After landing at full throttle I noticed not much ice past the leading edge on the bottom which is where most the lift comes from.
 
Henning said:
Uggg.... Climbing in icing IMO is a bad idea which is why I chose not to when I got in some severe icing. I'm pretty sure the only reason I survived that was that I chose to not climb and I had manual waste gate turbos that I took full advantage of. After landing at full throttle I noticed not much ice past the leading edge on the bottom which is where most the lift comes from.
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Did the Travelair POH specify a minimum ice penetration speed?
 
Henning said:
Uggg.... Climbing in icing IMO is a bad idea which is why I chose not to when I got in some severe icing. I'm pretty sure the only reason I survived that was that I chose to not climb and I had manual waste gate turbos that I took full advantage of. After landing at full throttle I noticed not much ice past the leading edge on the bottom which is where most the lift comes from.
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:eek: The only ice I like to see is in my coke cooling off the rum. :lol:

I've picked up ice flying several times over the years. Change altitude or turn around. Seeing it on take off would be a bad day. The only deicing I have is a hand scraper. :lol:
 
Henning said:
Uggg.... Climbing in icing IMO is a bad idea which is why I chose not to when I got in some severe icing. I'm pretty sure the only reason I survived that was that I chose to not climb and I had manual waste gate turbos that I took full advantage of. After landing at full throttle I noticed not much ice past the leading edge on the bottom which is where most the lift comes from.
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It depends on the situation. In severe icing, you're not likely to be able to climb out of it. But in most icing, it's not uncommon to be able to - easier if you have turbos.

You have to know the weather you're dealing with.
 
Alexb2000 said:
Did the Travelair POH specify a minimum ice penetration speed?
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Nope, no POH in 1958, just an owners manual. Wasn't planning on penetrating ice either, I got stepped down into on a 'no gyro approach'.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
It depends on the situation. In severe icing, you're not likely to be able to climb out of it. But in most icing, it's not uncommon to be able to - easier if you have turbos.

You have to know the weather you're dealing with.
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By the speed it built and the fact it was -10, I'd say SCLD as I was coming through the backside of an Arctic Zephyr on the way from St Louis to Key West as I was approaching Montgomery AL. My gyros froze in IMC at altitude around sunset and I took a No Gyro approach into Montgomery where they staged me down to 2500' into the ice. When I asked for lower they said 'unable due to terrain for the next 3 minutes' which is when I just gave her all she had to offer and figured I was gonna likely die in the next few minutes. In retrospect, I should have just flown her partial panel another half hour to an hour out of the south side of the front into VFR at altitude.
 
Henning said:
After landing at full throttle I noticed not much ice past the leading edge on the bottom which is where most the lift comes from.
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Henning said:
By the speed it built and the fact it was -10, I'd say SCLD as I was coming through the backside of an Arctic Zephyr on the way from St Louis to Key West as I was approaching Montgomery AL. My gyros froze in IMC at altitude around sunset and I took a No Gyro approach into Montgomery where they staged me down to 2500' into the ice. When I asked for lower they said 'unable due to terrain for the next 3 minutes' which is when I just gave her all she had to offer and figured I was gonna likely die in the next few minutes. In retrospect, I should have just flown her partial panel another half hour to an hour out of the south side of the front into VFR at altitude.
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