Battery Woes

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drotto

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drotto
So the battery in my plane died Saturday. I went to flip on the main during preflight and nothing happened. This was a relatively new Gill G-35 that was replaced in 6/2017 when I had a catastrophic failure of a 3 1/2 year old Concord battery in the middle of an IFR training flight when I attempted to restart after a pit stop. I will fully admit that the plane has been only used about 4 to 6 hours per month for the last 6 months, and was idle for about 2 weeks before I tried to start it.

I decided to pull the battery from the plane and take it home so I could put it on a trickle charger and monitor how it was doing rather than running back and forth to the airport. When I put it on the charger the charger attempted to charge but failed after about 5 minutes claiming it was at 100%, but saying it was only showing about 5 volts. I ran the battery down to the local repair shop (luckily only 10 minutes from my house), and they were nice enough to hydrometer test the cells, and try and charge it a bit. All the cells tested 100% dead. After putting it on the charger for about 1 hours, all cells still tested 100% dead, and the battery was only showing 11.9 V while attempting to charge as opposed to the 14 or so volts Gill says it should show. Time to make a warrenty claim I guess.

Luckily the shop had a new G-35 all charged and ready to go which they let me purchase. I put the new battery in the plane today. When I hooked it up, the overhead light in the nose baggage compartment lit up. I have no idea how that was even turned on, but suspect it was the reason the battery was drained.

So although long winded. A few questions. Is that one on light enough of a draw to both kill a battery and ruin a battery? It has been in the forties the last few weeks. Although the plane has seemed to be charging the battery fine, and the electrical system check out 10 months ago, with 2 dead batteries in that time, could there be an issue with the voltage regulator or alternator that is killing batteries?
 
Queue the battery jokes!
 
drotto said:
Is that one on light enough of a draw to both kill a battery and ruin a battery?
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You have 35 amp hours in the battery. If your bulb pulls 1/2 amp, your battery be totally discharged in 3 days. After a couple weeks, I wouldn't be surprised if it was dead dead.
 
drotto said:
...Luckily the shop had a new G-35 all charged and ready to go which they let me purchase. I put the new battery in the plane today. When I hooked it up, the overhead light in the nose baggage compartment lit up. I have no idea how that was even turned on, but suspect it was the reason the battery was drained.

So although long winded. A few questions. Is that one on light enough of a draw to both kill a battery and ruin a battery? It has been in the forties the last few weeks. Although the plane has seemed to be charging the battery fine, and the electrical system check out 10 months ago, with 2 dead batteries in that time, could there be an issue with the voltage regulator or alternator that is killing batteries?
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Yes.

Same thing happened to me, but the battery was more 3 years old. The hokey switch that is supposed to turn off the nose baggage light when the door is locked failed, left the light on and drained the battery. Tried everything including the de-sulfate cycle on the battery maintainer. No joy. Same outcome as you.
 
Nothing a half CCW turn on the offending light bulb can't fix for posterity. :D
 
Ryanb said:
Queue the battery jokes!
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Battery jokes have no potential in this thread. Maybe if this thread paralleled the other battery thread we could get a spark.
 
When a battery discharges, the lead and lead peroxide plates react with the sulfuric acid to form lead sulfate and water. The reaction produces electron flow. If that battery is drained deeply enough and left dead long enough, the sulfate hardens and refuses to do what it is supposed to do when we recharge the battery: break down back into lead, lead peroxide and sulfuric acid.

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All it takes is one such deep-discharge event to reduce the battery's life. All it takes is one long delay before recharging to kill it permanently dead.
 
So I guess the baggage light and maybe a few interior lights (although I have not tested it) are the only lights not disabled be the main?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 
drotto said:
Is that one on light enough of a draw to both kill a battery and ruin a battery?
Click to expand...
Yes.

drotto said:
with 2 dead batteries in that time, could there be an issue with the voltage regulator or alternator that is killing batteries?
Click to expand...
Regulators/alternators don't normally "kill" a battery. They either allow overcharging or have an internal issue and become a consumer of the battery charge via a parasitic drain. If a 12vdc system, when charging with a good battery should indicate 13-14vdc in general.

A more common issue is parasitic drain. A new modern battery should remain charged in a static state for at least several weeks. Most people who use battery trickle chargers never notice the problem as the charger keeps up with the parasitic discharge. Since you've lost 2 batteries I would look at having electrical system checked.

A simple test is to start with a fully charged battery, verify all electrical systems off, disconnect negative terminal at battery and connect a VOM selected to amps (10A to start if possible) between the negative battery post and the negative cable. There's no hard rule as to how much drain is acceptable but any reading over .1A should be suspect. To narrow down the search check for any equipment hot to the battery bus like a clock or similar item and disconnect them. If no obvious issue start pulling fuses/CBs one at a time to see if the reading lowers. If still no drop in the reading it gets a more difficult to isolate.
 
Clark1961 said:
Battery jokes have no potential in this thread. Maybe if this thread paralleled the other battery thread we could get a spark.
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Or shed some light on the subject...
 
All I am fairly sure stays on no matter what you do is the built in yolk mounted digital clock. Aside from the guilty baggage light, not sure where paralytic drain would come from.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 
Did you check the levels in the old gill?

Personally I'd never run one, sealed it the only way I go, Concorde or the like, especially when you see what spilled battery juice does.
 
drotto said:
not sure where paralytic drain would come from
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Aside from changing your clock to the one shown above........ parasitic drain can come from anywhere. A switch that has a "bridged" contact and never fully shuts off the current flow, a case leakage on a solenoid that drains a minute current directly to ground, a chafed wire, or even a digital yoke clock with an internal issue that consumes .1 amps instead of .001 amps. The important thing to know is if it you have it and how much is it. This type of electrical drain kills a lot of batteries and causes a lot of money to be spent on charging system components that were never the cause. The popular solution is to install a battery minder, etc. and consider the issue a feature of the aircraft. This continuous discharge/charge of the battery will eventually lead to excessive internal sulfidation as noted above and reduce the battery service life.
 
My last two gil 35 did the same thing. 6 months each. They are POS. Switch to Odyssey, have not looked back.
 
5QK said:
My last two gil 35 did the same thing. 6 months each. They are POS. Switch to Odyssey, have not looked back.
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At this point I am going to attempt a warrantee claim on this one. TBH the Concord got me a little spooked also, because it was working just fine. I landed for a break, went to start up and the battery was 100% dead when it seemed 100% fine 1 hr earlier as well as all through the flight.

As for what battery I got, for now I needed one ASAP and it was what the shop had.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 
Parasitic drain is just another reason to leave a charger/maintainer on full time. Even a solar powered charger would be better than nothing as long as it has a good charge controller. In the past we (commercial application) have found some solar charge controllers that were not particularly reliable. We were using them power small computers and data coms radios so a little tougher duty than keeping a battery topped-off.
 
Clark1961 said:
Parasitic drain is just another reason to leave a charger/maintainer on full time.
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Or fix the problem? Using a minder to "correct" a parasitic drain can cause up to a 50% reduction in the service life of the battery regardless if its a sealed, vented, a Gill, or Concorde. Inquire with any battery OEM tech support and they will offer the same advice... unless they're below their sales quota for the month.
 
drotto said:
Piper PA32R.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
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The front and rear baggage compartment lights on my Aztec illuminate on door opening with the master off.
 
Bell206 said:
Or fix the problem? Using a minder to "correct" a parasitic drain can cause up to a 50% reduction in the service life of the battery regardless if its a sealed, vented, a Gill, or Concorde. Inquire with any battery OEM tech support and they will offer the same advice... unless they're below their sales quota for the month.
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So how exactly does one fix the draw of an electric clock?
 
Clark1961 said:
So how exactly does one fix the draw of an electric clock?
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Pull the fuse? :)

I’d yank ours if the stupid thing wasn’t in the tail in winter with no power at our hangar for the inevitable few week period the weather makes us not fly the airplane. It has contributed to the battery being lower than we’d like a number of times.

That dumb mechanical Cessna clock is useless other than being legal and technically “free” to keep it vs buying some other overpriced airplane certified digital thing to shove in that hole.

Hell, we have a GPS now. Can’t think of a better clock than that. Certainly a million times better than that certified POS in the panel.

Hell a $1 watch is better than that thing.
 
Bell206 said:
It depends. How do you know it's the clock? And if so, how many amps is it pulling?
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I know the clock is connected directly to the battery so that is a parasitic draw. You suggested fixing the problem. I pointed out the problem is built into the design. Best thing to do at this point is drop it.
 
Clark1961 said:
You suggested fixing the problem. I pointed out the problem is built into the design
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Correct. But I choose to fix things rather than cope with them. Best of luck.
 
Clark1961 said:
So how exactly does one fix the draw of an electric clock?
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It’s entirely possible for the draw to be greater than it was originally designed to be. I have observed this behavior with old mechanical clocks in airplanes. I’ve seen them get so bad that they can kill a new battery in a week in the summer. There is no chance that such high draw is how it was originally designed.

So, you measure it to see what the draw is, and if the draw is unreasonable you fix it by replacing it with something not busted ass. Then you save money on batteries.

Not that I’d do this or anything, but, if a guy just disconnects it....a lot of problems are prevented...and nobody would ever say a word about it.
 
Bell206 said:
Correct. But I choose to fix things rather than cope with them. Best of luck.
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LOL. Gotta run the charger/maintainer anyway. Zero added cost solution is to leave it alone. But hey, if you've got to spend time and money to fix it then have at it.
 
Is there a trickle charger that does not require I dissasemble the plane? I have a Quick Charge APU with the Piper plug that claims it will charge a battery, but I do not trust leaving it plugged in. In the PA32's it takes a little work to get to the battery. Pulling panels apart and removing 16 or so screws and 2 panels every use gets old.

As for the clock it is a digital timer, and I think it does cycle off after a bit. Had the plane like 5 years and it has never presented an issue. Also it is my primary timer for IFR operations, so just disconnecting it is not a good option.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 
drotto said:
Is there a trickle charger that does not require I dissasemble the plane? I have a Quick Charge APU with the Piper plug that claims it will charge a battery, but I do not trust leaving it plugged in. In the PA32's it takes a little work to get to the battery. Pulling panels apart and removing 16 or so screws and 2 panels every use gets old.

As for the clock it is a digital timer, and I think it does cycle off after a bit. Had the plane like 5 years and it has never presented an issue. Also it is my primary timer for IFR operations, so just disconnecting it is not a good option.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Some battery chargers have a pigtail which can be connected to the battery or hot side of the master relay. The pigtail is then routed to an accessible point for connection to the charger. I’ve been using this method for several years now so I don’t have to access the battery to connect the charger.
 
Clark1961 said:
Some battery chargers have a pigtail which can be connected to the battery or hot side of the master relay. The pigtail is then routed to an accessible point for connection to the charger. I’ve been using this method for several years now so I don’t have to access the battery to connect the charger.
Click to expand...
I have th piper quick connect single plug which will run the avionics or can be used to jumpstart the plane. My APU said it can battery charge through the plug, but not sure I want to run current through that for long periods. I did jump start the plane once before and it did work through that connection, and it seemed to feed charge to the battery.

What worries me is when I attach the APU the non avionics master side of the electrical system does go hot, and bypasses the master switch. Some of my avionics ( I am not sure why they are wired this way, the avionics shop did it), come on with the master, not the avionics switch. Do not want to be feeding those items any current when they are supposed to be off. Guess I could just pop the breakers.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 
drotto said:
I have th piper quick connect single plug which will run the avionics or can be used to jumpstart the plane. My APU said it can battery charge through the plug, but not sure I want to run current through that for long periods. I did jump start the plane once before and it did work through that connection, and it seemed to feed charge to the battery.

What worries me is when I attach the APU the non avionics master side of the electrical system does go hot, and bypasses the master switch. Some of my avionics ( I am not sure why they are wired this way, the avionics shop did it), come on with the master, not the avionics switch. Do not want to be feeding those items any current when they are supposed to be off. Guess I could just pop the breakers.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
I’m not talking about the Piper plug and I would not use the Piper plug to charge the battery.
 
Clark1961 said:
Some battery chargers have a pigtail which can be connected to the battery or hot side of the master relay. The pigtail is then routed to an accessible point for connection to the charger. I’ve been using this method for several years now so I don’t have to access the battery to connect the charger.
Click to expand...

Same here. The pigtail for charging my battery is accessed easily through the oil-filler door. The inlet cowl would be another possible choice.
 
Doesn't the tender connector go directly on the battery terminals, at least that's how mines wired.
 
As with some other folks here, I think Concorde is a better battery. But a parasitic drain will kill the best battery in short order. A good battery, in a good system, charged to specified voltage, should last for months without losing so much it won't start the airplane. You should not need maintainers.

The old electromechanical clocks used a solenoid to wind a spring. You'd hear them click every so often. When the spring ran down a switch would close and the solenoid would wind it again. If the solenoid stuck, the switch could stay closed and keep the solenoid energized and drain the battery. Those old clocks should get tossed. Even when they work right they use way more power than a decent digital clock. I ran across another one that the owner had disconnected by pulling the fuse. I stuck the fuse in and watched the clock spin madly at hundreds of times its normal rate. It had a different mechanism that had lost its mind somehow and was draining the battery.

If your airplane has an external power plug for boosting the airplane when the battery's low, you likely have a circuit that involves a diode and resistor as part of the switching system to turn the power on when the external power is applied. Twice now, both in 185s, I have traced battery drain to that diode. It has shorted in the reverse direction and allowed a drain whose amperage depends on the short's resistance. It can drain the battery in a day or so if the short is bad enough.
 
James331 said:
Doesn't the tender connector go directly on the battery terminals, at least that's how mines wired.
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Yes, direct to battery, with a fuse on the hot side.

On my 182 (battery in the rear behind a bulkhead) the pigtail is routed through a hole drilled into the side of the “hat shelf” with a grommet to protect the wire and to keep the plug end from disappearing. It does push through easily though for removing the bulkhead.
 
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