Battery types
- Thread starter Tom-D
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Tom- I'm pretty sure you mean something other than an iridium battery.
If you edit your post, we can help you.
If you edit your post, we can help you.
As in satellites or something more down to earth?
kgruber
Final Approach
Cut Tom some slack. He's forgotten more than most ever knew. Pretty sure he means Lithium batteries.
https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/earthxbatteries.php
https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/earthxbatteries.php
I thought that I was being polite, as I'm quite sure he knows about lithium batteries, and would have said "lithium" if he meant it. I merely asked for clarificationCut Tom some slack. He's forgotten more than most ever knew. Pretty sure he means Lithium batteries.
https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/earthxbatteries.php
Assuming you do mean lithium batteries, the link below purports to be used in "certified aircraft". Depending on where the battery is mounted in the plane, I suppose a new W&B would need to be done, since the lithium batteries are lighter.
https://earthxbatteries.com/shop/etx900-tso
This document are instructions for continued airworthiness, using the battery in the above link:
https://earthxbatteries.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/180426-ETX900-TSO-ICA.pdf
Tom-D
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Tom-D
Thanks Karl.Cut Tom some slack. He's forgotten more than most ever knew. Pretty sure he means Lithium batteries.
https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/earthxbatteries.php
Got that right!
Yup always! Forget em, Tom!
Ha. For someone who always required specificity in their posts that's pretty hypocritical coming from you. You originally asked for Iridium batteries and got appropriate replies. Correct?
As to Lithium batteries in TC'd aircraft, the only FAA guidance I've seen states it requires an STC. That's not to say an enterprising ASI couldn't give you a field approval, but that would be opposite of his alteration job aid guidance. The reason given is Lithium has several safety issues to include flammable electrolyte. It's also the reason Concorde hasn't fully entered the Lithium arena per their tech reps.
Tom, I really don't understand why you have cause to complain this time. You did ask about an "iridium" battery. As we know that you understand the difference between "iridium" and "lithium", we questioned your query.
In any case, your were given a link for "instructions for continued airworthiness" for a particular lithium battery that should answer your original question.
Where was my criticism?
Tom-D
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Tom-D
Battle born battery company has dis-proven this a long time ago .
Concord is still a lead acid battery, so why is a STC required.
Tom-D
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Not quite. From what I understand, it depends on the construction and chemistry of the lithium battery. I believe there are a dozen different varieties. Considering I'm a big fan of Concorde, this is what they sent me when I inquired on replacing a NiCad with a Lithium in a helicopter. Last sentence sums it up: http://concordebattery.com/lion.php
F.1:
https://fsims.faa.gov/wdocs/other/major_repair_alteration_job-aid.pdf
Tom- there are many types of "lithium" batteries. At this time, all commercially available LIon batteries use flammable electrolytes. The LiFePO4, LMO, and NMC are less likely to experience a fire or explosion, but it is more likely than a lead-acid cell. They all can explode or burn. Just ask Boeing.
Here's a list of what the FAA expects for using a lithium ion battery on a type certificated plane:
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_20-184_Final_proof.pdf
Tom-D
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I get that, but there are also those that comply with the requirements.
https://www.groveaircraft.com/ac23-27.pdf
fit form and function, rules apply.
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And if you can find lithium battery that was classified as a series/group type battery, was within a pound of the original battery weight wise, and... was PMA'd you would have a chance with AC23-27. But as you've said in the past, if there's no write up it never happened.......
Even those that "comply with the requirements" of AC 20-184 can explode or burn, just because of the chemistry used at this time. The electrolytes are dimethyl or diethyl carbonate, both are flammable.
See this link:
https://earthxbatteries.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/180426-ETX900-TSO-ICA.pdf
To comply with continuing airworthiness, the battery needs to be installed properly.
Tom-D
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Tom-D
That's easy.
there are several avenues to gain approval. All require time and money for testing.
FYI: only if the AGM install meets the definition of a major alteration like replacing a NiCad or structurally changes the battery mounts will it need a 337and/or STC. The AC above gives this option and in some cases the the replacement of a wet-cell with a AGM can be done by a pilot/owner as long as it falls under the limits of preventative mx.
Stewartb
Final Approach
EarthX got a TSO for the ETX900vnt and so far no STCs for installations, but I have heard guys are getting field approvals. I’ll go EarthX in the Cessna when the Odyssey gives up. I’ve had no negative issues with the EarthX in my Cub. The only problem I’ve seen with an EarthX is when a battery got smoked by a runaway charging system. That wasn’t the battery’s fault.
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Stewartb
Final Approach
Incorrect. An AGM is a lead-acid battery. AC43.13-2B chapter 10 clearly addresses lead-acid batteries and relocating them. The opening lines of the AC address how to use and document the data. No FAA involvement is required.
Tom-D
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The only difference I see is the Lithium charging system is different, I don't know if that makes a difference.
Tom-D
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TRUE.
Stewartb
Final Approach
Both my planes use B&C alternators and regulators. I’m no electrical guy but the B&C system has a “crowbar” circuit that protects the battery from overcharging. FWIW the ETX aviation batteries have built-in overcharge protection, too, yet the one I know that failed got smoked pretty badly. My Cub has a battery warning light in the panel to warn of any issues. My original ETX had an internal problem that lit the warning light. EarthX sent a new battery via FedEx. I don’t classify myself as an expert, just an owner. And a happy one.
Lithium batteries are lighter. Depending on the plane, that may pose a W&B difference.
The charging system for a lithium battery is actually the same as you can use for a lead-acid battery. However, see page 2 in the link below under "Airworthiness Limitations". Although the charging system is the same as a lead-acid battery, it does need, in this case, to meet some requirements. Another difference is the battery inspection and maintenance listed starting at page 4 in the reference below.
https://earthxbatteries.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/180426-ETX900-TSO-ICA.pdf
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Tom-D
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My motorhome is the only experience I have with lithium batteries. This inverter / charger has 3 selections, Flooded, AGM, and Lithium. We have a solar charger in the system too. this will charge at 14.6 volts
We just installed the solar system.
We just installed the solar system.
Stewartb
Final Approach
EarthX warns not to use any charger that has a desulphating function. Desulphating is a normal maintenance function for lead-acid batteries in solar systems and uses higher than normal voltage inputs. My guess is the lithium setting limits charge voltage differently.
kgruber
Final Approach
But.....take care.....batteries DO explode. This is my neighbor's golf cart.
Tom-D
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No worries, the lithium does not produce hydrogen gas. so no explosion, no corrosion, etc.But.....take care.....batteries DO explode. This is my neighbor's golf cart.
Doc Holliday
En-Route
But they can catch fire.
Hydrogen is a reducing agent, so no corrosion
Lithium batteries, as mentioned earlier, have flammable electrolytes and can catch fire if mistreated.
Tom-D
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Tom-D
This is a fact, proven by the voltage charge rate, My lead acid (flooded) charges at 13.2, when I change to lithium it changes to 14.6.
I have 2, 100AH batteries like this.
https://www.solar-electric.com/batt...MIxZDXnJLf6QIVvj6tBh3LRwIvEAQYASABEgLWcfD_BwE
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Huckster79
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Where have folks got field approval? Our local FSDO approves almost nothing! I’m interested... if I don’t go this route I’m going Odyssy - working on getting my Cessna 140 from 1012lbs on a reweigh to under 950... made a good dent so far but battery is the big one.
do we know how many in air fires these have caused the experimental world? My guess is not many but would be interested. This EarthX is NOT the same battery composition as the Dreamliner had...
do we know how many in air fires these have caused the experimental world? My guess is not many but would be interested. This EarthX is NOT the same battery composition as the Dreamliner had...
wanttaja
En-Route
From 1998 through 2017, I found 29 reported cases of in-flight fires on homebuilt aircraft. That makes them relatively rare....
The major known sources of in-flight homebuilt fires are fuel and oil....
The three electrical system ones included:
NYC08FA292 - Probable Cause: "The pilot's decision to install voltage regulators in the engine compartment where they were susceptible to water intrusion, which resulted in a malfunction of the standby electrical system's voltage regulator and a subsequent in-flight fire.
WPR13LA122 - Probable Cause: "An in-flight fire due to an electrical short circuit." This looks to be due to damaged insulation on a wire.
LAX06LA228 - Probable Cause: "'An electrical fire due to improper wiring of the electrical system by other maintenance personnel." This, again, involved wiring.
However, keep in mind this is based on NTSB reports. NTSB 830 states that all in-flight fires must be reported, but, of course, many owners will avoid this if they can, and the NTSB may not generate an accident report for a minor incident. And, of course, there are cases where the cause of the fire cannot be determined.
Ron Wanttaja
If something was burned but there was no flame visible, is it considered a fire?
Huckster79
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well that speaks pretty good to them then as the “scare ya” YouTube fires seem as such it would be difficult to not report as they would melt a plane and it would never be able to land fatality free...
So I gotta say it doesn’t look like EarthX batteries are burning pilots to death in any measurable amount...
Huckster79
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So the question is what FSDOs would field approve these? Would one need to find a mechanic in that area to do it then? Fly there n get it done?