azure
Final Approach
Was idiotic? Or is? If I'm not mistaken the doc still has to test your color vision during the BasicMed physical, so it's still every 4 years.
Basicmed and color vision deficiency
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steingar
Taxi to Parking
If you pass a color vision test once you aren't color blind and never need to be tested again. To do so on a periodic basis is just plain old stupid.
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azure
Final Approach
Umm... we're in violent agreement on this one. My only comment was about your use of the past tense. BasicMed hasn't corrected that particular stupidity, so we're still stuck with it. (Although, maybe it's a little less strict as the doc has discretion about what standard to use.)
steingar
Taxi to Parking
I'm due for the Basic Med today, so I'll look over the checklist. I don't recall seeing anything about color vision on it. Indeed, I doubt there is, I can't imagine how my GP would test it. Keep in mind you have to pass the 3rd class once before you can do Basic Med. So you have to be examined for color vision. You pass once, and never need to be examined again, somewhat more rational.
MassPilot
Cleared for Takeoff
steingar
Taxi to Parking
I stand corrected. That said, I suspect my GP is going to ask what color his lab coat is or what color are the walls. I can't imagine he has the entire ocular setup that he AME does. Then agin, if he does he'll test it.
azure
Final Approach
It's there, and this is one of the reasons I've opted to go to my AME for the BasicMed exam, in case my PCP waffles saying, I don't have the equipment to test a lot of this stuff. Ocular alignment, field of vision... lots of stuff in there that an ordinary doc, depending on how he interprets his "discretion", might not want to touch.
Yet another reason to be sure your doc has the checklist in hand well before the exam. Because of the layers of staff at my clinic, that would have been difficult to do reliably.
steingar
Taxi to Parking
My doc just cancelled my appointment today. They said he wasn't feeling well. My luck to have a P sicker than me. Might go elsewhere, or even buckle up and do the class 3.
S
Steve Merkel
Guest
For kicks I reached out to AOPA to get their take. In case anyone cares, here is what they responded with:
Steve
"Under BasicMed, the limitation doesn't apply. As long as the Dr. performing your Basic Med exam is satisfied that you can see the colors he asks you about, then you are good to go for Basic Med. The only issue would be if there is a color vision restriction on your Driver's license because that is one of the pieces of info you would need to show if you are ramp checked."
Best,
Steve
RJM62
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ebetancourt
Line Up and Wait
I'm sort of ignorant on this, but color vision does degrade with glaucoma, and I have an SI for glaucoma so I worry. But if you fail the color test in office can't you do a SODA with the light guns and remove the restriction? I seem to recall that, but maybe my recall is bad.
atbroome
Pre-takeoff checklist
I know we've been over this already, but what if the doc isn't satisfied that you can see the colors he asks you to? There is no "pass with noted restrictions" for BasicMed. Only "pass" or "I won't sign off".
Yes, obtaining a SODA is an option, however the caveat is if you fail it, your Night flying restriction becomes permanent, it can never be removed. Many people are not willing to take that risk when there are options, such as finding an AME that uses a testing method you can pass, or now fly under Basicmed.
MassPilot
Cleared for Takeoff
That's one of the problems with BasicMed. The doctor is instructed to check your color vision but is not given any pass/fail standards or instructions on what to do if you can't read the chart he uses. He just has to determine if your color vision problem is an issue that may affect your ability to safely operate an aircraft. If you can convince him that it won't (which will probably leave him wondering why he bothered with the test in the first place) and he signs you off, you'll be able to fly under BasicMed with no restrictions besides those on your driver's license.
aggie06
Line Up and Wait
I disagree. The problem was the absurd way the FAA decided on standards without letting a doctor use his professional judgement. Obviously the standard wasn't the correct standard since so many could get a SODA or use another test. We don't need the FAA mucking up BasicMed by introducing their own standards.
MassPilot
Cleared for Takeoff
I definitely don't want them adding their own standards. My point was that it is going to create confusion for doctors when they're told to check color vision and the pilot can't pass whatever test they decide to use. I bet a lot of doctors won't sign off because of it which is too bad.
aggie06
Line Up and Wait
Fair point, but I think we just need better guidance for the doctors so they know what the standard is and what I need to be able to see to fly safely. Night vision is not the same as color vision, so I'm glad we don't have that automatic disallowance as a result of an arbitrary color vision test anymore.
atbroome
Pre-takeoff checklist
But lets say Bob the Pilot is completely color blind. Everything is shades of gray to good ol' Bob. Bob could not pass any color test. Under FAA 3rd class, Bob passes and simply can't fly at night or by light signal. Since the stupid form from the FAA tells Dr. Jane she needs to test Bob's color vision and he has none, can(should?) Dr. Jane pass Bob?
If you say yes, what if Bob's resting BP is 200/99. Should Dr. Jane sign off Bob?
Yes, this is all congresses fault.
FastEddieB
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In both cases, was the item in question examined and discussed? That's enough to earn a check box for that item. Unless the item falls within the FAA's list of things requiring a Special Issuance, which neither of the above does, the doctor only needs to certify:
- In accordance with section 2307(b)(2)(C)(iv), of the FAA Extension, Safety, and Security Act of 2016 (Public Law 114-190), I certify that I discussed all items on this checklist with the individual during my examination, discussed any medications the individual is taking that could interfere with their ability to safely operate an aircraft or motor vehicle, and performed an examination that included all of the items on this checklist. I certify that I am not aware of any medical condition that, as presently treated, could interfere with the individual's ability to safely operate an aircraft.
I think this was left purposely subjective. If the doctor does not feel that the pilot's lack of color vision or high blood pressure would affect their ability to operate an aircraft, and will so certify, the pilot is golden.
azure
Final Approach
And of course, the problem is that most non-AME doctors don't really know what would and wouldn't interfere with a pilot's ability to "safely operate an aircraft", and some will no doubt err on the side of caution. If the standard was "safely operate a motor vehicle" then it would be a lot easier. That's one of the reasons I would prefer to go to an AME for a BasicMed exam, and did just that a couple of weeks ago.
Having the FAA come up with the standards is not always a very helpful solution either, in that e.g. we know what their color vision standard is, and many pilots can't meet that standard even though they are able to get a SODA for night ops by passing a light sun signal test later on. If we simply revert to 3rd class standards then we might as well get a 3rd class. Letting doctors use their professional judgment is a big step, if not the single major advantage that BasicMed brings. If AMEs were given that much latitude for issuing 3rd class medicals then we likely wouldn't have needed BasicMed. I have no problem with going to an AME for an aviation physical and as I said above would actually prefer to go to one for BasicMed, in part because an AME is in a better position to know what issues are going to have an effect on aviation safety. Where it rubs isn't the AME, it's the involvement of OKC (and the expense of the tests they require) with everything but the most routine issuances.
The other reason is that some of the vision tests specified in the checklist require somewhat specialized equipment. or at least equipment that a PCP is not likely to have on hand. When I saw the PCP I originally asked to do my exam last week, he had never heard of Ishihara plates and agreed that he would not have been able to test my ocular alignment.
aggie06
Line Up and Wait
Does the checklist say he has to use the Ishihara plates? I think the point was to give him the latitude to use whatever test he deems sufficient and use whatever standard he sees as appropriate.
bflynn
Final Approach
I think that's probably why the exams require the doctor to use their medical judgement and not their aeromedical judgement. It also doesn't require them to certify you to fly, they only certify that they performed the exam that the FAA asked them to do.
And I still think the examination of your backside is to be sure that if needed, you can properly pucker. Could be wrong on that.
azure
Final Approach
That's true and it's why I worded that the way I did. There's enough latitude that he might just feel okay asking colors of various objects. (Or maybe not - that's why if you don't go to an AME, it's important to make sure the doctor knows what he's being asked to do.) But ocular alignment testing is pretty specialized. An ophthalmologist would likely have the equipment - I've had that done when going for an 8500-7 - but the average PCP probably doesn't, and my guy definitely didn't.
azure
Final Approach
That really depends on how the courts interpret the statute when the first doctor is sued on behalf of a BasicMed pilot. I don't think we really know yet how they will interpret it, and the certification does go a bit beyond having done the exam: "I am not aware of any condition..." If the pilot turns out to have a condition that might have impacted safety, then what? Don't you think the question is going to be whether the doctor could reasonably be expected to have known about it? I hope you're right and they interpret it conservatively, i.e. if the exam wouldn't uncover signs of it, then the doctor is off the hook. But we just don't know yet.
Can't have pilots up there who can't pucker, can we?
Brad Z
Final Approach
The checklist has no standards at all. If you're doc is cool with you flying with a 220/160 BP, then you're good to go. That said, physicians have an ethical obligation to use their clinical judgement and use reasonable standards.
Even if the doc says 220/160 is fine, you're obligated under 61.53 not to fly with a known medical deficiency that could effect your ability to safely operate an aircraft. A BP that high enough to cause you to stroke out at any minute would most certainly be a medical deficiency that would prevent you from flying safely.
FastEddieB
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Isn't ocular alignment a fancy word for how your eyes line up?
And at a glance, a doctor can discern whether a patient is noticeably cross-eyed or wall-eyed. No fancy equipment necessary to say it's been checked and discussed.
azure
Final Approach
I'm not a doctor, but I'm pretty sure there are degrees of misalignment that aren't noticeable at a glance, but still bad enough to cause problems with binocular vision (fusion). And what if you're not cross-eyed or wall-eyed but still have problems making your eyes track together?
Of course since there's no clear standard for BasicMed, a lot of doctors will just roll their own anyway. Some might do as you suggest, just inspect the pilot for noticeable misalignment. The important thing is to make sure the doctor has the full checklist in hand well before your appointment, if you're his first BasicMed exam. Showing him the certification he has to sign and making sure he's okay with that is important, but it's not enough.
Okay, so here is a question going to the next step past BasicMad and color vision. Say you have a current 3rd class with the night flight restriction. You are an instrument rated pilot with the restriction printed on the back of your pilot certificate (NIGHT FLYING PROHIBITED). Now you have gone thru BasicMed and your PCP signed off on physical; plus you have gotten checked out/signed off by a CFII for night and night instrument proficiency.
How can you go about getting the restriction removed from your actual pilot certificate since BasicMed says you are good? Without a SODA, I might add.
How can you go about getting the restriction removed from your actual pilot certificate since BasicMed says you are good? Without a SODA, I might add.
steingar
Taxi to Parking
By the way, in case anyone is interested I just got the Class 3. Found an AME who didn't get caught up in knots over a very simple case of gout. Good for two years!
Of course I only passed the vision by the skin of my teeth. Off to the optometrist's for new glasses
Of course I only passed the vision by the skin of my teeth. Off to the optometrist's for new glasses
Brad Z
Final Approach
Why is a medical limitation on the back of your pilot certificate? Typically a "NIGHT FLYING PROHIBITED" restriction would be found on a certificate issued in Alaska where the applicant wasn't able to meet the night training requirements in part 61. BasicMed won't effect the limitation on your pilot certificate one way or another but you may want to talk to the local FSDO about addressing the restriction.
MassPilot
Cleared for Takeoff
I recall a post a while back about someone with the same issue. They contacted the FSDO and it turns out that the restriction was improper and it was removed.
I wonder how this even happens. Can a misinformed DPE add this restriction at the end of a checkride?
Brad Z
Final Approach
I assume that's what happened.
N
NW Pilot
Guest
I have a 3rd class medical with the usual limitations for color vision deficiency. Years ago I tried to get a SODA to fly at night. I got 100% on the chart reading part of the test, but I missed one light gun signal out of 12 and did not pass. Then I took it again at night, and once again missed one of twelve. I even tried to correct my wrong answer immediately after, but the young man from FSDO administering the test was a stickler for the rules and would not let me change my answer. So for me, no night flying, even though I have no issues actually seeing at night, or flying at night, according to the numerous CFI's I have flown with.
But in fact, even though you won't see it in my logbook, every year I make a landing or two just after dark, due to various reasons (poor time management by me; slow service at the $100 hamburger joint; even one time due to a dead watch battery). Each and every one of those landings is at my home airport, where I am familiar with the pattern and the surrounding terrain, so it never feels unsafe. But it makes me mad each time. Mad at myself for being 15 minutes late to get into the air, and mad at the FAA for the seemingly arbitrary rules that prevent me from simply maintaining my night currency so that I can fly with greater safety and without feeling rushed to get into the air when the sun gets low.
But now in addition to a 3rd class medical, I have BasicMed. And so as long as I am not flying to Canada, or not taking my DC-3 up for a lap around the pattern, I can use BasicMed to fly, day or night. And if I want to fly to Canada, or take the DC-3 up (I don't really have a DC-3), then I can use my 3rd class medical for daytime flights. To me those seem like perfectly reasonable limitations for both. Despite some ambiguity, I think the FAA got this particular issue right.
Recently I went flying solo at night for the first time ever, and got 3 full-stop landings in. Flying single engine aircraft, I probably still won't fly much at night, but at least I can now maintain night currency, and I won't have to rush things to get home before sunset.
BTW, for me BasicMed was super simple to get, and my ObamaCare insurance paid for it 100% (it's all in how your doc codes it to insurance). I'm a healthy guy over age 40, and even though my doc had never even heard of BasicMed before (though she was formerly an AME), I printed the AOPA physician's guide for her, and she read it in my presence and signed me off after a very simple examination. In fact, most of the items on the list were merely discussed, with my health history in mind, and not actually part of a physical examination. And that seemed just fine. Ultimately it is up to me to determine if I am fit for any particular flight, and I can assure you that I will always take that responsibility seriously.
But in fact, even though you won't see it in my logbook, every year I make a landing or two just after dark, due to various reasons (poor time management by me; slow service at the $100 hamburger joint; even one time due to a dead watch battery). Each and every one of those landings is at my home airport, where I am familiar with the pattern and the surrounding terrain, so it never feels unsafe. But it makes me mad each time. Mad at myself for being 15 minutes late to get into the air, and mad at the FAA for the seemingly arbitrary rules that prevent me from simply maintaining my night currency so that I can fly with greater safety and without feeling rushed to get into the air when the sun gets low.
But now in addition to a 3rd class medical, I have BasicMed. And so as long as I am not flying to Canada, or not taking my DC-3 up for a lap around the pattern, I can use BasicMed to fly, day or night. And if I want to fly to Canada, or take the DC-3 up (I don't really have a DC-3), then I can use my 3rd class medical for daytime flights. To me those seem like perfectly reasonable limitations for both. Despite some ambiguity, I think the FAA got this particular issue right.
Recently I went flying solo at night for the first time ever, and got 3 full-stop landings in. Flying single engine aircraft, I probably still won't fly much at night, but at least I can now maintain night currency, and I won't have to rush things to get home before sunset.
BTW, for me BasicMed was super simple to get, and my ObamaCare insurance paid for it 100% (it's all in how your doc codes it to insurance). I'm a healthy guy over age 40, and even though my doc had never even heard of BasicMed before (though she was formerly an AME), I printed the AOPA physician's guide for her, and she read it in my presence and signed me off after a very simple examination. In fact, most of the items on the list were merely discussed, with my health history in mind, and not actually part of a physical examination. And that seemed just fine. Ultimately it is up to me to determine if I am fit for any particular flight, and I can assure you that I will always take that responsibility seriously.
N
NW Pilot
Guest
Nope. You can have both and fly under the rules of either. That is straight from the FAA FAQ's.
Yup. (The FAQ does say, however, that you can't switch from one to the other during the course of a flight.)
atbroome
Pre-takeoff checklist
Excellent! Looks like I'm going to go get my BasicMed. Now that I am getting back into flying, I'd like to legally be able to make type of flights the OP described. I haven't flown at night since my PPL training.