Basicmed and color vision deficiency

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G-force

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G-force
Having read through the 77 page Basicmed document and the FAAs FAQ on it, I haven't found an answer to this. I currently hold a class 3 medical cert. with the "NOT VALID FOR NIGHT FLYING OR BY COLOR SIGNAL CONTROL" due to being slilghtly color deficient. Under Basicmed it appears you must comply with restriction on your drivers licence, mine only says "must wear corrective lenses." Does that mean when my class 3 medical expires, if I choose to fly under the Basicmed guidelines, I can legally fly at night now?
 
Having watched the recent AOPA Webinar explaining BasicMed, my guess is that your color vision restriction will not go away and still apply to your situation.

For you, Question 18d will be answered as "yes", and the explanation will be your color deficiency and your existing "NOT VALID FOR NIGHT FLYING OR BY COLOR SIGNAL CONTROL".

The other thing I got from the webinar is that BasicMed does not create any "free passes" for existing conditions.
 
I've also read the Advisory Circular and FAQ as well as the Final Rule and law itself and I can't find anything that would indicate that restrictions on a previous medical certificate would still apply. The doctor that does the BasicMed exam cannot add any restrictions and the form doesn't even get reviewed by the FAA.
 
Also keep in mind, BasicMed does not eliminate §61.53. G-Force's color vision issues are already a known item. So, in my opinion, §61.53(1) is likely to apply.
 
FWIW 61.53(1) applies but since BasicMed is not a medical certificate (b) would apply

(b) Operations that do not require a medical certificate. For operations provided for in § 61.23(b) of this part, a person shall not act as pilot in command, or in any other capacity as a required pilot flight crewmember, while that person knows or has reason to know of any medical condition that would make the person unable to operate the aircraft in a safe manner.

So the PIC must certify before each flight that they are able to operate the aircraft in a safe manner.
 
jbarrass said:
So the PIC must certify before each flight that they are able to operate the aircraft in a safe manner
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So am I correct in interpreting that with (b), if G-Force knows he has the color deficiency and shouldn't operate at night, he won't be able to act as PIC under Basic Med for night flight activities?
 
AggieMike88 said:
So am I correct in interpreting that with (b), if G-Force knows he has the color deficiency and shouldn't operate at night, he won't be able to act as PIC under Basic Med for night flight activities?
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That's the way I read it as well. I never knew I was color deficient until I got my first Class III back in the day:cool:

Cheers
 
AggieMike88 said:
So am I correct in interpreting that with (b), if G-Force knows he has the color deficiency and shouldn't operate at night, he won't be able to act as PIC under Basic Med for night flight activities?
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The way I read it is if he is "unable to operate the aircraft in a safe manner" he shouldn't act as PIC at night. Since that what it says. The limitation on the medical that he's no longer using is not relevant anymore.

It would be up to him to determine if his "slightly color deficient" status means he's unsafe. If he's safe and just got caught up, for example, in an AME with poor equipment scenario, why couldn't he fly? The regs seem pretty clear.
 
Yeah, it seems to me that under BasicMed, the pilot would need to understand what colors one needs to distinguish in order to fly safely at night or under color signal control. My guess is white, red, green, and blue. Being able to distinguish mauve from purple, not so much.
 
After reading the advisory circular related to BasicMed, I'm wondering if the medical community was involved in this process. It appears as though a physician and the airman in order to sign off on the medical checklist, must make their own determinations without the benefit of specific guidance. Determinations of what conditions may or may not interfere with a pilots ability to fly safely are to be made by persons not prepared to do so. The traditional medical certificate system, administered by certificated AME's clearly outlined the specific requirements for conditions like vision, hearing, medications, etc. With BasicMed these determinations are left to non-experts in aviation medicine. I had an AME who insisted that a pilot requires 20/20 for near vision for a first class after age fifty. I tried to correct him on this and he became defensive. How will non-aviation experienced doctors choose to determine such things.
 
Better question, you claim to only be slightly color deficient. Have you ever tried any of the procedures to get past it and get the restriction removed? I initially failed my first Class III color vision test, but was able to work through it and have it permanently removed from any class of medical.
 
jbarrass said:
The way I read it is if he is "unable to operate the aircraft in a safe manner" he shouldn't act as PIC at night. Since that what it says. The limitation on the medical that he's no longer using is not relevant anymore.

It would be up to him to determine if his "slightly color deficient" status means he's unsafe. If he's safe and just got caught up, for example, in an AME with poor equipment scenario, why couldn't he fly? The regs seem pretty clear.
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That is how I am understanding it, limitation on previous medical is no longer relevant. The only limitations seem to be the ones on your Drivers licence, which can include prescription lenses, no night driving, etc. Your correct, I had no Idea I was color deficient untill my first 3rd class medical at nearly 40 years old. I have no problems seeing colors, such as working on complex electronics with dozens of different wire colors, or white/blue/green/red lights at an airport. Just can't pass the Ishihara color tests. I don't feel whatever level of color deficiency I have would prevent me from opperating an aircraft at night in a safe manner.

midwestpa24 said:
Better question, you claim to only be slightly color deficient. Have you ever tried any of the procedures to get past it and get the restriction removed? I initially failed my first Class III color vision test, but was able to work through it and have it permanently removed from any class of medical.
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I have looked into it, but at this point decided not to do it, mostly due to the "you get one chance, if you fail, your stuck with the restriction for life" . I wouldnt risk it unless I had a way to practice and were sure of a positive outcome. I'm a weekend fun flyer, actually have little desire to fly at night, but it would be nice to not have that restriction. Nobody in Southern California has any of the alternate tests like Farnsworth Lantern, that I am sure I could pass, and its just not worth flying commercial half way across the country to Bruce Chin every 24 months to use his Farnsworth Lantern. If I flew for a living, it would be a different situation.
 
I'm in the same position with slight color deficiency, but I know that I can tell aviation red, green, and white apart. In fact, most of my instrument training was done at night because of aircraft availability, so I know very well that I am capable of flying at night. After reading the regs and talking with various people, including AOPA, I agree that we all just have to be able to self certify every time we go up. I can do that now, but my medical specifically disallows night flight. I am also in the boat of not wanting to try the SODA test one time and fail, especially when I knew some sort of medical reform was coming.

It'll be nice to have the early morning and evenings as an option when traveling.
 
aggie06 said:
I'm in the same position with slight color deficiency, but I know that I can tell aviation red, green, and white apart.
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Ditto.

I can usually see the number on just the first plate on the color vision test. I flew with someone from the FAA back in the 1970's and I had to identify light gun signals from Opa Locka tower, which I successfully did. Still have and carry the SODA from that in my wallet.

In my case, green and red are not hard to tell apart. But I think my perception of green is a bit off, making it hard sometimes to differentiate green and white, since green lights appear kind of washed out.

My medicals have also always called for corrective lenses. I had radial keratotomy performed in the 1980's, improving my vision a lot, but it's not 20/20 uncorrected. But for the most part I successfully drive without glasses. My take is that now, flying as a Sport Pilot without a medical, it's up to me whether I fly with glasses or not. I think the same will apply with BasicMed. I always do, regardless, but I think if I lost or broke them on a flight I'd be legal to fly based on my own judgment of having good enough vision to do so safely. At least that's my take until it's shown otherwise.
 
I did not go the SODA light gun route to clear my medical. My instructor at the time with the help of the AOPA found another way, by going to a local eye doctor and taking an alternate approved color vision test. I have a waiver now, that says I don't require even a SODA. This was a big issue for me, as I had aspirations to fly commercially.
 
FastEddieB said:
hard sometimes to differentiate green and white, since green lights appear kind of washed out.
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I run through all the color test plates so fast the nurse thinks I memorized them, including the one with no number. And I still have a tough time telling aviation green from white, depending on conditions. I've noticed some rotating beacons are just... old? Maybe the tint isn't what it used to be? Or maybe the light is just too dim for the color parts of my eyes to lock on.

I know they'll never upgrade the beacons, but if the light guns in the towers were all LED based, it'd be trivial for the marginal cases to tell them apart. Bright, narrow spectrum, etc.
 
I made it to high school never suspecting I had a color vision deficiency.

Then a biology textbook was handed out. I flipped through it and came to a page that had an illustration that had colored dots clearly spelling out "ONION".

I read the caption. It said, roughly: "This is an example of the Ishihara test for color vision. Those with normal vision will see the word "COLOR". Those with a red/green deficiency will see the word "ONION". Those with total color blindness will see nothing at all."

I thought it had to be a mistake, but showing it to others, they clearly saw "COLOR". They saw a "C" as the first letter, where my eyes apparently jumbled red and green dots in close proximity to close the "O" in "ONION". And so on.

It's weird, because to me bright red and bright green are as bright and colorful and different as I can imagine. But I guess I must concede that others see them more vividly or distinct or something.

Just my cross to bear, I suppose!
 
What year did this happen? In my research, I had heard this was possable, have an expert, such as an Ophthalmologists give you a letter, Statements of facts, to the fact you passes one of the FAA colorvision tests. However, after that 727 crashed in 2002, and the co-pilots color deficiency was partially blame, that the FAA stopped allowing this. If I can ask, what exact waver did you get, is it an FAA form, or just a report that your AME acceptes for the color vision portion of the exam?

midwestpa24 said:
I did not go the SODA light gun route to clear my medical. My instructor at the time with the help of the AOPA found another way, by going to a local eye doctor and taking an alternate approved color vision test. I have a waiver now, that says I don't require even a SODA. This was a big issue for me, as I had aspirations to fly commercially.
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If anyone is curious, here's the bottom portion of a SODA that I was issued roughly 40 years ago:

33773164346_52fc77153e.jpg


The top has my name and address and a waiver number.

All I did was correctly identify light gun signals from Opa Locka tower.

Of course, the procedure may have changed over the last 4 decades!
 
G-force said:
What year did this happen? In my research, I had heard this was possable, have an expert, such as an Ophthalmologists give you a letter, Statements of facts, to the fact you passes one of the FAA colorvision tests. However, after that 727 crashed in 2002, and the co-pilots color deficiency was partially blame, that the FAA stopped allowing this. If I can ask, what exact waver did you get, is it an FAA form, or just a report that your AME acceptes for the color vision portion of the exam?
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I have a form letter from the FAA stating that I have satisfactorily demonstrated the color vision requirements, and that this letter exempts me for the color vision test for any class of medical. This was in 2000. My AME has a copy of the letter on file, plus I always bring another just in case.
 
Excellent thread! I too have the restrictions on my medical related to color vision deficiency, but to be honest, I've always felt that the night flying restriction is sort of arbitrary. With the sole exception of being able to distinguish the colors of anti-collision lights, there is really nothing about night flying that we need color vision for any more than flying in the light of day. In fact, even though I am not legal to act as PIC at night with my 3rd class medical, I fly at night with a CFI annually, just so that I have at least some experience just in case. From that experience, neither me nor the CFI's I have flown with have ever had any concerns about my night flying abilities. I don't have much of an issue with the red/greeen of anti-collision lights, and even if I did, the ADS-B technology that I have in my cockpit makes it less likely that it even matters.

So now, it appears there is a way for me to fly at night (and legally maintain my night currency) by flying under the BasicMed rules. With my vision as it is currently, I would have no problem self-certifying that I could conduct a VFR night flight safely. I have restrictions under BasicMed that would limit my night flying to certain aircraft, and I won't be able to fly to Canada as I do occasionally.

But I can also keep my 3rd class medical, and fly under the daylight-only restrictions for trips north of the border, or in larger or higher performance aircraft. While it may seem like a loophole of sorts to be able to pick and choose what restrictions I have to comply with, it also strikes me as being a very logical outcome. Despite what my class 3 medical says, I know that I can fly safely at night, and now as long as I apply the other restrictions under BasicMed, I can :)
 
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Who cares about flashing anti collision lights?

It's the glide slope into a foreign to you airport, beacon colors, runway light colors for distance.


That said the isharia dot test is a crap test for color vision IMHO.



I'd also majorly rethink your reliance on ADSB in the VMC environment.
 
James331 said:
Who cares about flashing anti collision lights?

It's the glide slope into a foreign to you airport, beacon colors, runway light colors for distance.


That said the isharia dot test is a crap test for color vision IMHO.



I'd also majorly rethink your reliance on ADSB in the VMC environment.
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As for anti-collision lights, who says something like that? Certainly not me. Now if that other pilot forgot to turn his lights on as the sun went down, then all of a sudden that technology on the cockpit is all you got. But really, my only point to ADS-B is that we have ever more technology in our cockpits that we can use to increase the safety of flight, and in many cases they make up for our own human deficiencies. I'm not suggesting that it makes the concept of looking outside the cockpit obsolete, or that the color deficiency that I have is bad enough that I would have to look at my iPad to figure out what direction another aircraft is moving. If it was that bad then I would not be able to self-certify that I could fly safely at night.
 
flytime said:
As for anti-collision lights, who says something like that? Certainly not me. Now if that other pilot forgot to turn his lights on as the sun went down, then all of a sudden that technology on the cockpit is all you got. But really, my only point to ADS-B is that we have ever more technology in our cockpits that we can use to increase the safety of flight, and in many cases they make up for our own human deficiencies. I'm not suggesting that it makes the concept of looking outside the cockpit obsolete, or that the color deficiency that I have is bad enough that I would have to look at my iPad to figure out what direction another aircraft is moving. If it was that bad then I would not be able to self-certify that I could fly safely at night.
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Didn't say said that.

Normally I never see the colors, just the strobes and trend their direction of flight and altitude.
 
FastEddieB said:
My medicals have also always called for corrective lenses. I had radial keratotomy performed in the 1980's, improving my vision a lot, but it's not 20/20 uncorrected. But for the most part I successfully drive without glasses. My take is that now, flying as a Sport Pilot without a medical, it's up to me whether I fly with glasses or not. I think the same will apply with BasicMed. I always do, regardless, but I think if I lost or broke them on a flight I'd be legal to fly based on my own judgment of having good enough vision to do so safely. At least that's my take until it's shown otherwise.
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If you're worried about something happening to your glasses, get an inexpensive pair and keep them in the plane. Visit the cheap place ("2 pair of glasses for only $38.99"), or get a copy of your prescription and go to www.zennioptical.com and order some up.

I did this after an early Instrument training flight after work, where I went from the car to the plane in my prescription sunglasses. When we came back just after sunset, I had to choose between a blurry landing or a dark, clear one. Oh, and my landing light that had worked on preflight didn't come on for landing, and there were trees I needed to halt my descent to clear on final . . .
 
aggie06 said:
I'm in the same position with slight color deficiency, but I know that I can tell aviation red, green, and white apart.
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Same here. I have no problem telling aviation (or most other) red/green/white apart. My problem is that certain duller greens look brown or tan to me. I fail the ishihara plates miserably but I am confident I could pass the lantern test or anything else that actually tested my aviation color vision. I've not yet bothered to have the limitation addressed on my 3rd class since I have been a VFR day flyer only. If/when I am certificated for IFR it is something I want to look into.

To the specific topic of this thread, BasicMed might not remove this limitation. One of the things the signing off doctor needs to administer per the checklist is a color vision test. In my case, if my doc only has the ishihara plates which I would fail, where does this leave the doctor if they are only allowed to sign off (or not) and not indicate any limitations? Might docs refuse to sign off on the whole thing due to color vision problems?
 
I just completed my BasicMed exam this morning. Yay!

I had taken in my SODA for color vision deficiency.

But note the check box on the form simply verifies the doctor has "Examined" said item, in this case your color vision. NOT that it met any arbitrary standard. ONLY that they discussed the item with you and, in their opinion, you're safe to operate an aircraft.

Or at least that's my take.
 
The doctor can either sign off or refuse to sign off. They can't impose limitations.
 
aggie06 said:
The doctor can either sign off or refuse to sign off. They can't impose limitations.
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Hence the wondering the likelihood of a GP doc refusing to sign off if someone were to "fail" one of the check list items. How are they supposed to know how important color vision is to being able to safely pilot an airplane and in what conditions?
 
You have to explain it to him. The FAA has some guidance that says something to the effect of the standard being whether you are safe to operate a small motor vehicle.
 
A retorical question, but then why even bother to make the doc check color vision? Or look at my anus for that matter
 
Well, rhetoric is certainly not in short supply with those folks!
 
Is the OP really certain about his color blind status? There are hypomorphic alleles of the X chromosomal color opsins that produce light-dependent effects on color vision.
 
steingar said:
Is the OP really certain about his color blind status? There are hypomorphic alleles of the X chromosomal color opsins that produce light-dependent effects on color vision.
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Can you translate that into something that could be understood by someone who frequents the Olive Garden?
 
aggie06 said:
You have to explain it to him. The FAA has some guidance that says something to the effect of the standard being whether you are safe to operate a small motor vehicle.
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Where did you see that guidance? The whole point of BasicMed is that the FAA doesn't tell docs how to evaluate airman for flight fitness, but instead empowers physicians to use their clinical judgement.
 
Brad Z said:
...The whole point of BasicMed is that the FAA doesn't tell docs how to evaluate airman for flight fitness, but instead empowers physicians to use their clinical judgement.
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But at the same, the FAA included in the instructions for BasicMed that the physician "should" read their guidance material for AMEs. That appears to be what scared my doctor off.
 
atbroome said:
Can you translate that into something that could be understood by someone who frequents the Olive Garden?
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Apologies. Vision is made possible by a number of light sensitive proteins called opsins. Some of the ones needed for color vision are on the X chromosome. What that means is if a guy gets a bad copy, he's color blind. Women usually aren't because they have two X chromosomes.

True color blindness occurs because the color opsins are completely kaput, what we non-Olive Garden types call null alleles. However, there are numerous alleles of the color opsins that only partially degrade their functions, what we NOG's call hypomorphic. I carry one, as do many other men. Indeed, the notion that women have better color vision is often true. Test me in the correct conditions and you could conclude that I'm color blind.

Which is what I'm discussing with regards to the OP. How certain is he that he is indeed color blind? If he was tested under the wrong conditions it could be that a partial defect got mistaken for a more severe one. That was one of the more idiotic things about the class 3 medical, testing for it every 2 or 4 years was idiotic. If you all of a sudden go color blind you have bigger problems than your vision.
 
Brad Z said:
Where did you see that guidance? The whole point of BasicMed is that the FAA doesn't tell docs how to evaluate airman for flight fitness, but instead empowers physicians to use their clinical judgement.
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I can't find it now but I will keep looking. That was the point of the comment, though - that the doctor now makes a decision based on his professional judgement that the pilot is safe to operate an airplane. No arbitrary pass-fail standards like for the Ishihara plates. Just whether the doctor think the pilot can see the colors he needs to see while flying. As an example, I had a doctor friend tell me he'd sign off if the pilot could point out the colors at the airport (like the SODA test).
 
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