Base to Final need Help

There is also the tendency of the plane to "pop up" when you add flaps. It is something (else) you need to control.
Many also have the tendency to stop flying the plane when the wheels touch. Don't stop until you are safely parked with the engine off.
 
wabower said:
Can you elaborate on your sillyass theory as to why a pilot should not use all the tools available to him during this maneuver?
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Say what? I don't see anything "sillyass" about his theory. Looking outside gives him the ability to develope a feel for the airplane. Just remember to include the ASI in your VISUAL scan and I see nothing wrong with ignoring the VSI.
 
Ron Levy said:
I would rather say that trim controls airspeed. Once you trim for a speed, the plane will maintain that speed without any pitch inputs from the pilot, although the pitch will vary with power increase/reduction. So, if they plane is trimeed for 100 knots with power for level flight, if you add power and don't put any pressure on the stick/yoke, the nose will go up and the plane will climb while maintaining 100 knots. Reduce power, and the nose goes down and you descend while still holding 100 knots. Try sometime -- you'll see.
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I like this one best so far. Sure you can argue till your blue in the face about whether a pilot should control their airspeed with pitch or power but ultimately it is the combination of the two. Trimming the airplane for the approach speed is the easiest way to get the airplane to do what you want. As for pitch, ideally you should be pointed at the numbers. That is where you want to go. If the numbers looking like they are moving up or down in the windscreen then add or reduce power/pitch accordingly since you are already at the desired airspeed. Since the pitch aims the nose of the airplane at the runway most likely its power changes [aside from the flaps of course] that is going to change your rate of descent. Otherwise your going to be flying a glideslope that looks more like a flight of stairs instead of a straight line.

<---<^>--->
 
If I understand your question you are asking if it is proper to trim off any pressure from the stick. I always instinctively trim when flying a plane that has elevator trim.

I cannot see why your instructor is saying you should not trim when going base to final unless you are trimming too nose up.
 
AEROBAT said:
If I understand your question you are asking if it is proper to trim off any pressure from the stick. I always instinctively trim when flying a plane that has elevator trim.

I cannot see why your instructor is saying you should not trim when going base to final unless you are trimming too nose up.
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Exactly -- Why not trim off pressure?

Seriously -- if the pilot is unable to transition from landing to takeoff configuration for a go around, he/she should train until he/she can or find another hobby.
 
AEROBAT said:
If I understand your question you are asking if it is proper to trim off any pressure from the stick. I always instinctively trim when flying a plane that has elevator trim.
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That's fine in static flight, but not maneuvering.

I cannot see why your instructor is saying you should not trim when going base to final unless you are trimming too nose up.
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I get the feeling the OP's problem involves the nose dropping in the descending base-to-final turn, which is not something to fight with trim. If you trim nose up in the turn to compensate, you'll a) decelerate in the turn, which you don't want at that point, and b) just have to trim nose down again after roll-out to get back on desired approach speed. Better, I think, to leave the trim alone in the turn, let the nose go where it will in the turn so you maintain desired approach speed and don't get slow in the turn (base-to-final turn is a bad place to be decelerating), and compensate for any undesired increase in sink rate during the turn with a touch of power which is then removed when you roll out again on final.
 
Ron Levy said:
That's fine in static flight, but not maneuvering.
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I trim for steep turns, trim for landing -- heck, I even trim for slow flight.

For example, a typical landing sequence in light winds:

  1. midfield reduce power, slow to white arc, trim
  2. abeam numbers, reduce power, apply flaps, trim, observe 500 FPM descent at 1500 RPM/ 15" MAP (in a typical SEL)
  3. downwind to base, maintain 80 KIAS/ 500 FPM descent
  4. base to final, reduce power, apply remaining flaps, trim to maintain 65 - 75 KIAS (airplane dependent), 500 FPM descent
  5. At this point I'm usually full nose up trim, full flaps (In the Chief the only difference is no flaps and RPM is 1000)
  6. "Over the fence" pull back a bit to slow to 1.2 Vso
  7. Land
This sequence includes maneuvering, and full nose up trim. I've used this method in 300 HP airplanes. A go around is a handful but the key is simultaneous -- but gradual -- application of full power with removal of drag end of flaps (down to 20-15 degree range), then trim off pressure.

That's my sequence in a Single -- even a larger single.
 
dmccormack said:
I trim for steep turns, trim for landing -- heck, I even trim for slow flight.
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Do you also trim every time you turn?

BTW, trimming for steep turns should not be necessary if you've already trimmed for the desired speed for the maneuver prior to entry. For steep turns, I teach entering at the desired speed for the maneuver, trimmed for that speed, and then using power to maintain altitude in the turn. However, if you enter at one speed and decelerate to another during the maneuver, retrimming will make it easier to hold the lower speed, but then you'll have to retrim again at roll-out as you accelerate again. Put it all together, and it's a lot of accel/decel and retrimming. For those reasons, I don't teach retrimming in any turn, steep or otherwise.
 
Ron Levy said:
Do you also trim every time you turn?

BTW, trimming for steep turns should not be necessary if you've already trimmed for the desired speed for the maneuver prior to entry. For steep turns, I teach entering at the desired speed for the maneuver, trimmed for that speed, and then using power to maintain altitude in the turn. However, if you enter at one speed and decelerate to another during the maneuver, retrimming will make it easier to hold the lower speed, but then you'll have to retrim again at roll-out as you accelerate again. Put it all together, and it's a lot of accel/decel and retrimming. For those reasons, I don't teach retrimming in any turn, steep or otherwise.
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Depends on the airplane. In the Chief or a 15x series I can fly all day ignoring trim. In a heavier airplane (20x series, BE-35/36) trim makes it very easy to maintain steep turn altitude, on speed.

Larger airplanes usually have electric trim, with thumb drive -- not so hard.
 
p1l0t said:
snip... Since the pitch aims the nose of the airplane at the runway most likely its power changes [aside from the flaps of course] that is going to change your rate of descent. Otherwise your going to be flying a glideslope that looks more like a flight of stairs instead of a straight line.

<---<^>--->
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Yesterday, I turned base to final and realized that I was high and fast. There is an initial desire to point the nose to the numbers. But, my familiarity with the airplane tells me different. So, I pull the nose up, and trim for 65kt while at the same time reduce power to idle. What happened was that the glide path steepened and headed right for the numbers. I kept it that way and greased the landing.
 
Making appropriate adjustments based on your experience with the plane is part of developing your airmanship/piloting ability. Sounds like it was a good call.
 
Lowering your airspeed is really effective for getting down fast (high sink rate). Of course you can only come so close to Vso near the ground unless you know you have smooth air and no shear. And even then you need enough airspeed to flare. (65 kt is of course reasonable)

But there are many ways to skin the cat. You can also increase your airpseed near to your max flap extension speed which means all kinds of drag with those flaps hanging out... and add in some slip to produce even more drag
 
dell30rb said:
Lowering your airspeed is really effective for getting down fast (high sink rate). Of course you can only come so close to Vso near the ground unless you know you have smooth air and no shear. And even then you need enough airspeed to flare. (65 kt is of course reasonable)

But there are many ways to skin the cat. You can also increase your airpseed near to your max flap extension speed which means all kinds of drag with those flaps hanging out... and add in some slip to produce even more drag
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Agreed that one can also lose altitude faster by pointing the nose down (I did have full flaps). But, I would rather not end up close to the ground at high airspeed. I want to be at normal landing airspeed. It is harder to judge where you will touch down if you end up at some airspeed way above what you are used to...
 
Ron Levy said:
BTW, trimming for steep turns should not be necessary if you've already trimmed for the desired speed for the maneuver prior to entry. For steep turns, I teach entering at the desired speed for the maneuver, trimmed for that speed, and then using power to maintain altitude in the turn. However, if you enter at one speed and decelerate to another during the maneuver, retrimming will make it easier to hold the lower speed, but then you'll have to retrim again at roll-out as you accelerate again. Put it all together, and it's a lot of accel/decel and retrimming. For those reasons, I don't teach retrimming in any turn, steep or otherwise.
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Interesting technique. I can see this very helpful for the pilot who flys different makes/models as it's transferrable. Heck, a student pilot doing this may find it easier than the 'learn to coordinate' method or 'cut the nosebowl by this much for left and that much for right turns' that I happened upon by accident during student solos.
 
skidoo said:
Agreed that one can also lose altitude faster by pointing the nose down (I did have full flaps). But, I would rather not end up close to the ground at high airspeed. I want to be at normal landing airspeed. It is harder to judge where you will touch down if you end up at some airspeed way above what you are used to...
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I hear you.. I agree knocking a few knots off or just adding some slip is better than zooming at the ground. If you're in that bad of shape might as well go around and try again.
 
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Jaybird180 said:
Interesting technique. I can see this very helpful for the pilot who flys different makes/models as it's transferrable.
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I really do like techiques which are positively transferrable across makes, models, and classes of airplanes -- teaching people to fish, etc.

Heck, a student pilot doing this may find it easier than the 'learn to coordinate' method or 'cut the nosebowl by this much for left and that much for right turns' that I happened upon by accident during student solos.
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I don't see the proper use of trim and the proper use of attitude as exclusive choices. They are both part of the fundamental of concept of attitude flying, which is not repeat not exclusive to instrument operations. If we could get all the CFI's out there to adopt those fundamental concepts first espoused by Langwiesche 67 years ago, we'd have fewer accidents, more successful students, and lower times to certificates and ratings.
 
Ron Levy said:
I really do like techiques which are positively transferrable across makes, models, and classes of airplanes -- teaching people to fish, etc.

I don't see the proper use of trim and the proper use of attitude as exclusive choices. They are both part of the fundamental of concept of attitude flying, which is not repeat not exclusive to instrument operations. If we could get all the CFI's out there to adopt those fundamental concepts first espoused by Langwiesche 67 years ago, we'd have fewer accidents, more successful students, and lower times to certificates and ratings.
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I've got a bone to pick with him...his book is responsible for continuing to spread the shock-cooling idea.:eek::rofl:
 
Ron Levy said:
I really do like techiques which are positively transferrable across makes, models, and classes of airplanes -- teaching people to fish, etc.

I don't see the proper use of trim and the proper use of attitude as exclusive choices. They are both part of the fundamental of concept of attitude flying, which is not repeat not exclusive to instrument operations. If we could get all the CFI's out there to adopt those fundamental concepts first espoused by Langwiesche 67 years ago, we'd have fewer accidents, more successful students, and lower times to certificates and ratings.
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So ignoring all tools available is best practice?

:dunno:
 
Jaybird180 said:
I've got a bone to pick with him...his book is responsible for continuing to spread the shock-cooling idea.:eek::rofl:
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Ron Levy said:
Metallurgy has changed a lot since then, but the fundamentals of aerodynamics have not.
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Although I was being sarcastic, your response reminded me of a line in a movie (forgot the title) that said, "And don't be believin' ever'thing you read n'em books neither". Anyone know the movie?
 
skidoo said:
Yesterday, I turned base to final and realized that I was high and fast. There is an initial desire to point the nose to the numbers. But, my familiarity with the airplane tells me different. So, I pull the nose up, and trim for 65kt while at the same time reduce power to idle. What happened was that the glide path steepened and headed right for the numbers. I kept it that way and greased the landing.
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Yeah depends on the airplane, but you still maintained a striaght glidepath which was what I was getting at.

<---<^>--->
 
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