Banner tow plane down......

Lots of dangers. Looks like there were two on board which would make it sound to me like a trainee / checkout situation.
 
Mike Smith said:
I wonder what the dangers are?
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During the pickup sequence, hitting the ground with the plane, catching the banner rope with the landing gear, letting the hook hit the ground, rain soaking the banner and dragging the plane to fly too slow, pulling up too quickly after snagging the banner and stalling into the ground, and mostly for me it was having an idiot instructor.

Otherwise it is not inherently dangerous.
 
It wasnt raining and it appears to have gone in nose first, so catching the landing gear or pulling up and stalling would seem the most likely of those.... obviously it’s a sad deal no matter how it happened.
 
Stan Cooper said:
FAA/FS-I-8700-1 Information for Banner Tow Operations (25 page pdf) is a worthwhile read.

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/media/faa-fs.pdf

For years an open grassy field between runway 33-15 and taxiway Delta at KOAK was used for both airship and banner tow operations right outside my T-hangar until they built a large hangar there. It was fascinating to watch.
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Those pickups generally happen at KLVK now. The banner tows pick up in grassy strip between the two runways.

Heh, and when the zeppelin was flying around here, I've seen it land at KLVK, too. I remember tower calling out the airship as traffic once for me...not exactly hard to spot!
 
Well...because the person arrested was the pilot of the banner tow. Like I said, bad behavior elicits bad behavior. Take your pick. Skipping a checklist comes to mind, anything really. Considering the history with illegal activities the cause could be anything out of the ordinary....will have to wait and see...

Tragic, a beautiful family left behind.

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2018_08_04_archive.html
 
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It does appear the validity of the deceased pilot's commercial certificate was in question.

George%20Bancroft%20Marshall_zpsoivfoexy.jpg
 
Mike Smith said:
Whether or not he had a valid certificate has zero impact on the cause of the crash.
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I'm not suggesting it did. Certificates don't expire though, so if it wasn't valid the reason would typically be that it had been suspended or revoked. I feel sorry for his wife and kids.
 
I would expect the suspension is a result of the flying pot conviction. Has nothing to do with why the plane crashed and he died.
 
Davecat said:
Well...because the person arrested was the pilot of the banner tow. Like I said, bad behavior elicits bad behavior. Take your pick. Skipping a checklist comes to mind, anything really. Considering the history with illegal activities the cause could be anything out of the ordinary....will have to wait and see...

Tragic, a beautiful family left behind.

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2018_08_04_archive.html
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The FAA Airmen's Registry has a note that "certificate may not be valid".
Mike Smith said:
I would expect the suspension is a result of the flying pot conviction. Has nothing to do with why the plane crashed and he died.
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Or perhaps the crash and the suspension had the same root cause: poor decision making. We know about the conviction (and the slap on the wrist), and we know that he was flying without a valid ticket (and thus, likely, no insurance.) As to the actual cause, we'll let the FAA figure it out, as usual. But the accident chain was started by getting in a plane essentially unlicensed.
 
Or perhaps he was a DEA informant and they hired an assassin to kill him. Perhaps Pablo Escobar is really still alive and sent some Sicarios to take him out. Perhaps the line guy put Jet A in his Champ. Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps....Perhaps he had a mechanical issue. Perhaps he made a mistake. We can "perhaps" all day. But one thing I know for damn certain is that whether a piece of plastic is valid or not, whether a guy flew pot or not, has zero to do with the airplane hitting the ground. We dont really know what the status of his certificate is, we can "perhaps" it, but we dont know.

Kenny Phillips said:
But the accident chain was started by getting in a plane essentially unlicensed.
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This is just false.
 
Mike Smith said:
Or perhaps he was a DEA informant and they hired an assassin to kill him. Perhaps Pablo Escobar is really still alive and sent some Sicarios to take him out. Perhaps the line guy put Jet A in his Champ. Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps....Perhaps he had a mechanical issue. Perhaps he made a mistake. We can "perhaps" all day. But one thing I know for damn certain is that whether a piece of plastic is valid or not, whether a guy flew pot or not, has zero to do with the airplane hitting the ground. We dont really know what the status of his certificate is, we can "perhaps" it, but we dont know.



This is just false.
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Don’t think it is. *IF*, and that’s a big if, his license was suspended for just cause, than who are to say he was actually competent?
 
Unforgiving

Always wanted to try banner ops
 
Kritchlow said:
Don’t think it is. *IF*, and that’s a big if, his license was suspended for just cause, than who are to say he was actually competent?
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Who is to say he isnt? He broke the law and was flying pot. If in fact his certificate is suspended for that, I get it. That does not equal incompetent.
 
Mike Smith said:
Who is to say he isnt? He broke the law and was flying pot. If in fact his certificate is suspended for that, I get it. That does not equal incompetent.
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It does lead to disregard for regulation/safety practices however.
 
Kritchlow said:
It does lead to disregard for regulation/safety practices however.
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This convo brings to mind the whole “let he who has no sin cast the first stone” deal. I mean, I’m not excusing the drug deal, but if we wanna really go there, if you have ever gotten a speeding ticket in your life - or not gotten a ticket but you know you’ve justified it...


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RyanShort1 said:
This convo brings to mind the whole “let he who has no sin cast the first stone” deal. I mean, I’m not excusing the drug deal, but if we wanna really go there, if you have ever gotten a speeding ticket in your life - or not gotten a ticket but you know you’ve justified it...


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A speeding ticket is not the same as drug trafficking.

Shame on you.
 
A buddy of mine was the new hires commercial CFI. I feel bad for all involved. My buddy was up giving a lesson when he saw the smoke and they didnt know what happened. Saw the fire truck and plane and when he landed found out it was his former student :(
 
Kritchlow said:
A speeding ticket is not the same as drug trafficking.

Shame on you.
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I disagree with regards to Aviation. Speeding and reckless driving, especially as a habit is anti-authority, and possibly other hazardous attitudes just as much as anything else and it directly corresponds to operating a motor vehicle.


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RyanShort1 said:
I disagree with regards to Aviation. Speeding and reckless driving, especially as a habit is anti-authority, and possibly other hazardous attitudes just as much as anything else and it directly corresponds to operating a motor vehicle.


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You truly believe 28 mph in a 25 zone is equal to drug trafficking???

No winning here. I’m done.
 
RyanShort1 said:
I disagree with regards to Aviation. Speeding and reckless driving, especially as a habit is anti-authority, and possibly other hazardous attitudes just as much as anything else and it directly corresponds to operating a motor vehicle.


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Perhaps in some cases, but I have had many speeding tickets during my time on earth, but I was a very safe and competent pilot. I still am, and I've been flying 44+ years and over 25K hours.
 
mscard88 said:
Perhaps in some cases, but I have had many speeding tickets during my time on earth, but I was a very safe and competent pilot. I still am, and I've been flying 44+ years and over 25K hours.
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I actually don’t totally disagree, but I was trying to point out that the arguments being used here are arbitrary. It does sound like the guy had a problem, though.


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Very sad that these two men died in this accident. It does seem that this accident had not a thing to do with any past indiscretions. Pilot had a current pilot certificate and a current medical. The narrative attests that he did a thorough and complete preflight. My reading of the report leads me to believe this was a competent pilot who did everything right. Right wing drops you pick it up with left rudder, standard spin recovery technique. Perhaps there was a W&B issue that caused the flat spin, we will probably never know. One thing that seems certain is that the pilots past problems had nothing to do with the accident. May they both rest in peace.
 
Probably just a normal stall spin. Heavier than normal and they tape the stall horn off so if new guy was flying might have stalled out on the climb out and got ground rush and didn’t get forward elevator in.
 
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