Ballooning on Landings

stevenhmiller

stevenhmiller

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Steve's Archer
I'm having a little trouble with my landings. I'm flying an Archer II. I balloon on my transition from descending to flying down the runway for touchdown. Any tips on how to stop this? I have close to 40 landings with my CFI and I can't seem to get this part right.
 
It takes energy to gain altitude, and with your throttle at idle (or minimum RPMs you are comfortable with), the only energy you have available is kinetic energy, and that comes from speed and speed alone. Good landings are slow landings. Are you at 1.2 Vso coming over the threshold?


Bob Gardner
 
stevenhmiller said:
I'm having a little trouble with my landings. I'm flying an Archer II. I balloon on my transition from descending to flying down the runway for touchdown. Any tips on how to stop this? I have close to 40 landings with my CFI and I can't seem to get this part right.
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Slow your final approach speed down 5kts.
 
I'll take a stab.. along with possibly having too much airspeed..

Pull back on the yoke a little sooner than you have been, but less aggressive and let it settle down. As it settles, continue pulling back smoothly until on the runway.

Try not to let it land!!!
 
It appears to definitely be a speed issue. I just checked the POH for final approach speed with 40 degrees of flaps, and it shows 66 KIAS. I've been coming in at between 70 - 80 KIAS. Way too much, obviously.

With that in mind, if I'm coming in with only 25 degrees of flaps (2nd level instead of full flaps), what should the final approach speed be?
 
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What's your instructor saying???

Obviously speed is the cause. That's usually a result of flying the final leg too flat with too much power. It sounds like you could benefit from more slow flight practice and getting comfortable operating behind the power curve.
 
FastEddieB said:
In my experience, this can often be traced to looking too far down the runway. When you do, you may not realize how much you've ballooned until you're already too high.

See if this helps:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/yj9oez6gk40jk36/Wheretolook.pdf?dl=0
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So, basically I should be looking about 200 feet down the runway, instead of the end of the runway. My instructor tells me to look to the end of the runway. I'll try the shorter and see if that helps. Thanks.
 
The speed could certainly be a factor.

But as a thought experiment, could one not zoom into ground effect at 100k (given a long enough runway) and still not balloon?

As long as the pilot can clearly see the initial climb, and just hold the plane a foot or less over the runway, it should never balloon regardless of speed.

Really the best idea is to have your instructor troubleshoot. They will have a better perspective on your individual situation.
 
stevenhmiller said:
This is good stuff! Going to study this and apply it to my landings. Thanks!!!
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Balooning = too much speed.

Take the plane up and stall it in landing configuration. Write down that number and put it on a piece of tape on the panel. Fly in the landing configuration 10 knots over stall maneuvering slightly to feel the plane, now 5 knots over.

Add 10 knots over the fence and slow down to 5 knots over when flairing. The plane can't balloon. Practice, practice, practice.
 
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Speed is probably the biggest factor, and another, as Fast Eddie points out, is bringing my point of focus from far end of runway to about 200 feet in front of instead.

Two great points to focus on next time up.
 
stevenhmiller said:
It appears to definitely be a speed issue. I just checked the POH for final approach speed with 40 percent flaps, and it shows 66 KIAS. I've been coming in at between 70 - 80 KIAS. Way too much, obviously.

With that in mind, if I'm coming in with only 25 percent flaps (2nd level instead of full flaps), what should the final approach speed be?
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That's not % flaps, it's ° flaps. Want to know the real speed for any configuration? Go stall in that configuration & weight. After you not the speed at which it stalled, go into the CAS<->IAS conversion table and find the CAS, multiply by 1.2, go back into the table and find the IAS.

Another easy one is just slow it down so the stall warning is chirping during the bottom of the approach. Stall horns typically sound off about 5kts above stall.
 
I think the conventional pedagogy causes a lot of confusion here.

You don't pull back on the yoke to slow down, though that will happen. You fly level and put the yoke where you need to for that.

Excessive airspeed is a contributor, but the correct result of that is excessive float, not ballooning.
 
Henning said:
That's not % flaps, it's ° flaps. Want to know the real speed for any configuration? Go stall in that configuration & weight. After you not the speed at which it stalled, go into the CAS<->IAS conversion table and find the CAS, multiply by 1.2, go back into the table and find the IAS.

Another easy one is just slow it down so the stall warning is chirping during the bottom of the approach. Stall horns typically sound off about 5kts above stall.
Click to expand...

Yes, I meant to write degrees... mind was elsewhere when writing. That's what happens with wife and son interrupt. :)
 
stevenhmiller said:
So, basically I should be looking about 200 feet down the runway, instead of the end of the runway. My instructor tells me to look to the end of the runway. I'll try the shorter and see if that helps. Thanks.
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I actually stood about 30' to 50' ahead of the plane and found that a good place to look for the average training plane.

Anyway, don't just take it from me - here's the FAA's take:

11403149764_e680233f9f_b.jpg


Again, my thought is that if you could see you were climbing, it would be clear what to do about it, regardless of speed.

That said, arriving in ground effect just 5k or so above stall will make the transition shorter - and easier.
 
All good info here. Appreciate everyone's feedback and assistance in this. Got some good reading and some things to try out. Looking forward to my next flight! :)
 
stevenhmiller said:
It appears to definitely be a speed issue. I just checked the POH for final approach speed with 40 percent flaps, and it shows 66 KIAS. I've been coming in at between 70 - 80 KIAS. Way too much, obviously.
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YUp -- that'll do it every time. And if you red the book further, you'll probably see that 66 knots is for max gross weight. With just two aboard and partial fuel, you're probably 400 below max gross, and should probably be 4 knots slower than even that. You can do the math if you want, but 1 knot below book max gross speed speed for every 100 lb below max gross works out very close to the speed computed based on he lift equation in light singles.
With that in mind, if I'm coming in with only 25 percent flaps (2nd level instead of full flaps), what should the final approach speed be?
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What does the book say your atall speed changes between 25 degrees (not percent) and 40 degrees flaps? Multiply that by 1.3 (the usually recommended multiple of stall speed to get approach speed) and add it to your weight-adjusted full flap approach speed to get your 25 flap approach speed.
 
stevenhmiller said:
So, basically I should be looking about 200 feet down the runway, instead of the end of the runway. My instructor tells me to look to the end of the runway. I'll try the shorter and see if that helps. Thanks.
Click to expand...
In an Archr with its high glare shield, I'd suggest sticking with the far end of the runway as the point you're trying to hold the nose on during the flare and touchdown. If you only bring the nose up to a point 200 feet down the runway, you're going to smack the nose wheel every time.
 
FastEddieB said:
But as a thought experiment, could one not zoom into ground effect at 100k (given a long enough runway) and still not balloon?
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Yes, but it will be more of a long, slow, gradual pull than a "zoom", and that takes both patience and finesse -- two things pre-solo students generally lack (especially the second, even if they have the first).
 
I used to balloon some because I always carry a little extra speed (unless I'm on a short field) because I hate mushy controls but I have gotten real good at holding the nose up and letting it settle/bleed airspeed off for some really good landings.

I don't mind using runway length as I'm not trying to set any records nor am I being unsafe. It's just my preference
 
stevenhmiller said:
I'm having a little trouble with my landings. I'm flying an Archer II. I balloon on my transition from descending to flying down the runway for touchdown. Any tips on how to stop this? I have close to 40 landings with my CFI and I can't seem to get this part right.
Click to expand...

First, as others have said, slow down. You can't balloon without excess speed.

Second, I would ask my CFI why he/she isn't giving you instruction. What, exactly, are they doing when you balloon? You are paying them to teach you what to do, and this is pretty obvious.

Finally, keep looking at the far end of the runway. If you focus too closely in front of the aircraft, you will tend to bang it down, hard.

And take heart: This is absolutely the hardest thing you will learn to do consistently well. Everyone struggles with finding their own method of greasing a landing. In another thousand or so, you'll just about have it right. :yes:
 
God, I love this forum! The input here is exceptional. If it wasn't overcast, I'd call my CFI and tell him I want to go out and try these now. Tomorrow.... :)
 
+1 on the looking far ahead and slow down.

The dots at Oshkosh for example prove that if you don't look ahead, and you look right at a spot and try to cram it down you'll bounce like a mexican jumping bean every time. I watched this over and over with arrivals.

I'm guilty of it. Now I must go back to OSH and redeem myself. :D
 
stevenhmiller said:
It appears to definitely be a speed issue. I just checked the POH for final approach speed with 40 percent flaps, and it shows 66 KIAS. I've been coming in at between 70 - 80 KIAS. Way too much, obviously.

With that in mind, if I'm coming in with only 25 percent flaps (2nd level instead of full flaps), what should the final approach speed be?
Click to expand...

You are going the wrong way with flap extension. Full flaps = landing flaps.

Bob Gardner
 
For some reason, otherwise stellar instructors sometimes have a tendency to allow students to scream into short final or teach some nebulous final approach speed.

"Around 70 knots is fine, a little extra speed is better than too slow."

Two problems: extra speed is NOT fine for a student, and failing to instruct a target approach speed allows the student to be sloppy. A student usually doesn't have the ability to handle the extra energy. Yes, theoretically you shouldn't balloon even with extra energy, but that requires a fine touch because the controls are more effective.

You've got the 66 knots from the POH. Yes, it's for gross weight, but in absence of an experiment at altitude, that works for an Archer II so let's go with it for now. Absolutely NAIL that approach speed on short final. Accept nothing more or less. See if that doesn't markedly improve your landings.

If you're still having some issues, be sure your roundout is a smooth transition to level, not a dive-and-yank. I don't like the word "flare" because, personally, it brings to mind a yank to level. Your roundout starts well above the ground as you transition to level and hold the plane off just above the runway, and this smooth roundout is important to bleed off some additional energy.

Have fun. Landing is my favorite part of the flight.
 
I'm equally confused as to why airspeed management on final hasn't been a focus point during your flights and during the debriefs.

It's great that you're getting high quality advice here, but when it comes to fundamental issues like this, the CFI should be all over it. Coming in screaming fast is something that should happen 1 time at most before the CFI launches into a well-rehearsed speech about the importance of energy management. It's odd that this hasn't happened.
 
Ron Levy said:
If you only bring the nose up to a point 200 feet down the runway, you're going to smack the nose wheel every time.
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I think that misunderstands something.

When teaching from the back seat of a Citabria, I could see virtually nothing if I tried to look down the runway - really all I could see was the student's shoulders and head. Looking out at an angle about 30' to 50' ahead of the plane was quite manageable and I alwas knew where the ground was and if The student was aligned.

I honestly don't think I ever focus on the far end of the runway. My focus is generally centered on or just beyond my intended point of landing. Maybe it's because at Opa Locka, where I learned to fly, the runway end could be almost 2 miles away.

And my students, in general who were craning their necks to see the far end of the runway, tended to have a heck of a time with balooning or flying into the ground too soon.

Anyway, whatever works. But there are planes out there where the far end of the runway will be obscured in the flare, so being able to judge height by looking at the runway edge some distance ahead can be a valuable skill regardless.

Image and (counter) example to follow.
 
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Jay Honeck said:
Finally, keep looking at the far end of the runway. If you focus too closely in front of the aircraft, you will tend to bang it down, hard.
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Again, not my experience - though I admit one can look "too close". But I think the far end of the runway is "too far", and we should - as the FAA recommends - try to find the "Goldilocks Zone" of "just right".

Take this screen shot of a recent landing video I did in my Sky Arrow*:

15886898229_04e0bf11c7_z.jpg


True confession time: For all this preaching about looking to the sides, to avoid having to look over the nose, it looks like I don't - at least in my Sky Arrow. The GoPro is mounted to my cap at about eye level, and if I were really looking left or right I would almost certainly be moving my head - not just my eyes.

But I'm blessed with exceptional visibility in my Sky Arrow. I would guess I'm focusing pretty much on the "x", though of course my eyes are moving around. Were I in a plane with a high panel, I'd be looking more at "y" or "z", depending on if I were in the left or right seat. And I might add I NEVER bang the nose down hard doing it that way. You'll note in the photo I'm touching down at about 40k IAS, not far from the 39k CAS Vso of the Sky Arrow. No nose banging apparent.

And rewatching the video just now, I noticed there's just enough of a dome in the runway that, truth be told, in the flare I could not see the far end anyway!

But whatever works. I usually only get asked for help when someone is having problems, like this thread's originator.


*full video here: http://youtu.be/zCjjm_Hrmgg?list=UUIRbXga4oZn7XAUSLfkBO7w
 
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I had a hard time learning to land. I don't know how many hundreds of touch and go's I did before I finally felt comfortable landing. I would say I have only had 2 or 3 greasers. The biggest tips I received were to look at the end of the run way. As you flare you will see that you start to sink, pull back on the yoke. Just keep doing this. Your goal here is to stop the decent without climbing.

The trim is your friend. That is one thing that was stressed to me. On final, I was taught to trim the plane slightly nose high to help reduce the for you have to use in the flare.
 
FastEddieB said:
I honestly don't think I ever focus on the far end of the runway. My focus is generally centered on or just beyond my intended point of landing.
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If you're talking about where to look during the approach, I'm with you. But if you're talking about where to look during the flare and touchdown, unless your head is sticking up through the roof of the OP's Archer, you cannot see "just beyond [your] intended point of landing" -- the nose of the plane completely blocks your view of the runway immediately in front of the nose throughout the flare. And if you had the plane in an attitude where you could see "just beyond [your] intended point of landing", the nosewheel would be lower than the mains, and that makes for a really bad touchdown.

That said, what you can see in that Sky Arrow may be quite another story, but for typical light GA Standard category trainers like 172's and PA28's, you must be covering the runway immediately ahead with your nose and looking all the way at the far end with your eyes in the flare in order to land mains-first.
 
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Try some low approaches over the runway and get the sight picture down. Try to hold the plane as close to the ground without touching it. This really helped me when I was doing landings
 
Don't try and land, just see how close you can come to the runway and NOT touch it. Use the SAME approach speed for every landing.
 
I don't look at at spot but instead scan. My scan includes the end of the runway, my aiming point, my expected touchdown zone and the runway edges.

If i focus on one point I want to freeze up and watch but if I scan I stay more active, hopefully with early adjustments.
 
stevenhmiller said:
It appears to definitely be a speed issue. I just checked the POH for final approach speed with 40 percent flaps, and it shows 66 KIAS. I've been coming in at between 70 - 80 KIAS. Way too much, obviously.
Click to expand...

Yes, you're on the right track here. Slow 'er down about 10 knots and I suspect the problem will go away ;)
 
While I won't solo a student until they can hold the appropriate approach speed +/-5kts I don't think ballooning is really a speed issue. I fact it can sometimes be easier to balloon at slow approach speed because you have to more precisely pull back to stop you descent.

I would experiment with looking at different location during the landing, the end of the runway, 1/2 way down the runway or 400 ft ahead until the nose obscures it an then out the side.

As a thought experement cross the runway threshold at 100kt and 10 feet , the plane will be nose down in perfect position to wheelbarrow. Just hold the airplane at 10 feet it will slow until it is still 10 feet and in a level attitude. At this point you will be at about you normal cross the threshold speed and can proceed to let the plane slowly descend to 5 feet as you raise the nose and then 2 feet as you approach the normal climb attitude and you will have reasonably normal landing (a ways down the runway).

I think the main issue is not starting to raise the nose soon enough and then doing it to quickly. At about 100 feet lower the nose about 2 degrees i.e. slightly,This is because most new pilots tend to start slowing down to soon and in reality you will probably just maintain your airspeed. If you lose site if the numbers (aka your aim point) much before you get to them you are probably raising the nose too much.
At 50 to 25 feet change your focus to down the runway, start slowly raising the nose (smoothly pull back) you should end up in about a level attitide floating down the runway within 10 feet of the runway. As the airplane descends pull back slowly (the faster you drop the faster you need to pull back) to stop or slow the descent. If your descent stops, or you start climbing. just stop pulling and wait for the plane to start descending, as it will when it slows down (if you really balloon then you need to add power and go-around or recover).
Once the nose reaches about a normal climb attitude like you use on takeoff just let the plane settle, if it starts dropping faster than you like then pull until it stops or you hit the stop on the elevator.

That is a long way to say pull back smoothly to slow or stop the descent. Keep pulling until the nose is up. If you stop descending or start a slow climb, just hold the elevator until the plane starts descending again. Never push forward on the yoke unless you balloon so bad you need to go around.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
If your coming over the fence at 70-80 , you need, as has been suggested, to spend some time with a CFI. Plus a lot more practice such as stalling the airplane at altitude, slow flight, etc. you must not feel confident at this point. Couldn't your CFI have answered this for you?
 
Remember, the POH stall speed is usually listed as at maximum gross weight. In our 172 at 2300lbs, that is an IAS of 40mph. That converts to a CAS of 49. Multiplied by 1.3 gives you a CAS approach speed of 63. Converted back to IAS, it's 60 indicated for final. And at max gross, that's going to get you right on the mark.

BUT!!! What if you're not at max gross?? Your stall speed goes down. If I'm solo, the plane only weighs about 1800lbs, my stall speed goes from a CAS of 49 to 43. Multiplied by 1.3, and converted to IAS, my indicated airspeed on final should be 51, not 60.

Old Stall Speed X SqRt(New Weight / Old Weight) = new stall speed.
49 X SqRt(1800/2300) for me solo.

And ********, that math actually works. If you're well under the published max gross, you'll be well over the appropriate approach speed if you don't account for it.
 
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