Bad and well some good news

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asgcpa

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Checkride was yesterday. After a grueling almost 4 hour oral with paperwork, l passed that section. DPE had a second ride with another applicant after me.

Flight started fine, proceeded northwest VFR. Somewhat turbulent. DPE played ATC but no biggie. After intercepting a radial, I picked up ATIS at the airport, and he switched to Approach and made the radio call 20 DME from VOR that I was tracking. He was told to stand by. We were then at 18, 15, 10, 8 DME from VOR at airport before they got back to us. Requested full VOR 15 approach. Response- unable. Requested 7L ILS - unable. He said we were in IR Checkride. They said they would give full VOR 15 as we are 4 DME away. Thankfully, I had flown that approach several times before so it was easy to brief but it still takes time to set up GPS, flip nav freq to active, ID VOR, set autopilot etc. Did the full VOR no problem. He asked for the published hold on the missed response was - unable. Seems they had a lot of traffic from a little aviation event called Oshkosh to the north. It was also compounded by the damn parachutists operating by the airport. As an aside, they have interfered with practically everyone of my flights at this airport all summer. I guess that's a good reason to train in winter oh well. He had me request vectors for the ILS 7 L and we informed them we would want a circle to land. Guess what? Unable. He requested a hold over the FAF for the ILS. I was somewhat flustered as this time and blew the hold using the GPS. I recognized it and asked for vectors to attempt it again. I had an issue with the right set up on the 430 as he wanted full automation and not me hand flying the hold. Wanted to try again and he said I was busted. S**t. He said we could do other parts if the ride back so I could get credit. We did a partial panel RNAV back, unusual attitudes, and a circle.

So I failed the hold, and didn't even get to do the ILS because we couldn't do it due to heavy traffic. I got the dreaded pink slip. So I have to go on another ride and of a hold and the ILS approach. I am bummed. He couldn't spend a lot if time debriefing because we were an hour late for the other applicant. He did say that all other aspects other than the hold were within PTS standards. He then looked at my log. 10 days without flying close to your ride he asked. Yup- plane was down, weather bad, other people booked and spent 2 days with my kid at OSH. He said considering everything, he was impressed knowing how I hate turbulence, the monkey wrenches thrown at us, and the experience level I have with instrument flying. He said other than the hold I would have passed, assuming the ILS was the same quality as my other approaches. Kinda like asking Mrs Lincoln, other than your husband being shot how did you enjoy the show at Fords theatre.

Good news is, my friend who is the other applicant, passed. By the time he flew the jumpers had gone home and OSH traffic had subsided for some reason. He got the hold off the VOR and the ILS. But I'm really happy for him as he has been training for 2 years and wrote his knowledge test in July 2012 so yesterday was D Day for him.

Also I have to take with a different DPE as the DPE missed a mandatory FAA meeting as he was out if the country on his real flying job. Its a bummer because although tough, he is fair. Obviously, totally my fault.

Life goes on.....
 
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What I couldn't quite figure out is why the ride didn't break off to another airport after the first round of "unable"s.
 
Henning said:
What I couldn't quite figure out is why the ride didn't break off to another airport after the first round of "unable"s.
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He had another applicant right after me and all the airports in the area had issues. We should have gone south. Instead the Checkride did. Lol.
 
So it goes...

I'd like to hope that you can count this failure as your life's biggest tragedy for 2014.

Not to make light of it, but if you can say that then I'd say you're sitting pretty!

Good luck next time around - better to screw up while being tested by an examiner than to do it in real life!
 
The follow-up ride will be a cakewalk and you'll be rated. This is a minor bump in the road. Congrats on getting 90% there. Another half hour and you'll be done!
 
FastEddieB said:
So it goes...

I'd like to hope that you can count this failure as your life's biggest tragedy for 2014.

Not to make light of it, but if you can say that then I'd say you're sitting pretty!

Good luck next time around - better to screw up while being tested by an examiner than to do it in real life!
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Very true Eddie.
 
Bad timing with the ride being during AirVenture. Like Loren and Henning said, your follow up ride will be a cakewalk, you already did the tough stuff.
 
Be There, Done That.

Hang in there. You will pass the next Check Ride.
 
You'll have no problem on the next go around. You've only got the easy stuff left.

Excuse me while I hijack this thread for a minute. I've now read a couple threads about how people are having a hard time on the instrument checkride because of issues getting the GPS setup. For non-GPS based approaches, can the examiner actually bust you for not using the GPS? I trained in a variety of aircraft with a variety of GPS systems, or none at all. So, if I'm not doing a GPS approach, I generally just tune the radios and fly the approach. I don't completely ignore the GPS, I will generally use it for track/distance information, and use the moving map if available, but actually loading an approach into the GPS seems to me to not give much benefit for the liability it introduces (e.g. the 'pass/fail button').

My examiner didn't say a word about the way I flew the checkride, and I had a 530w in the plane. The only time I loaded an approach was for the RNAV. I have to imagine that if you were to say, "The GPS isn't giving me what I want, I'm just going to hand fly the hold," it would show good judgement on your part. The automation features of the aircraft are supposed to reduce your workload, not increase it.
 
asgcpa said:
C. Kinda like asking Mrs Lincoln, other than your husband being shot how did you enjoy the show at Fords theatre.


Also I have to take with a different DPE as the DPE missed a mandatory FAA meeting as he was out if the country on his real flying job. Its a bummer because although tough, he is fair. Obviously, totally fault.

Life goes on.....
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First, that is an awesome phrase. I gotta remember it. :)
Like others said, the next CR will be nothing.
When is your next CR scheduled? Who are you going to use?
 
LDJones said:
The follow-up ride will be a cakewalk and you'll be rated. This is a minor bump in the road. Congrats on getting 90% there. Another half hour and you'll be done!
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I absolutely agree with this. It should be cake.

One nit I have I you should have gotten the post-flight brief. You paid for all of it. It was his problem, not yours, that he was late to his next ride. I understand being accommodating and not making a big deal of it. But the debrief would have been nice. You paid for it.
 
charheep said:
First, that is an awesome phrase. I gotta remember it. :)
Like others said, the next CR will be nothing.
When is your next CR scheduled? Who are you going to use?
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I would use the same DPE. Insist on it even. Two reasons, 1) familiarity; 2) getting your worth out of it. Also, he would be more likely to spend some time with you post flight. Familiarity goes both ways. The more time he spends with you the more likely you'll discover a gem of knowledge.
 
I don't know if it matters. I think, if you pink slip the ride, you only have to do what you failed on the retake. It's not like a complete retake.
 
So I spoke to him again, other than the hold everything was within PTS. He did tell me I could have paid closer attention to the Cdi needle on the bottom 430 as it appeared I was looking too much as the magenta line on the top 430 when I was doing my partial panel RNAV approach. He did say that I noticed and corrected while still within PTS parameters. He felt bad. He recommended a DPE that he sends his students to for rides who is a member of our club. He said that he doesn't believe this gentleman will retest other parts as they know each other, but, it is fair game, including the oral. He did say he felt bad as he wanted to give me the ticket, and I told him if I were testing me, I would have issued the fail so not to sweat it.

Spoke to the other DPE, and he told me that he will wait until I get back to him after talking to my CFI. He said most likely we will just go over the hold and ILS, but he would ask me a few questions.
 
Bummer.. Good luck next go around! I'm hoping to test later this month. What was the focus of your 4 hour Oral?
 
Richard said:
I would use the same DPE. Insist on it even. Two reasons, 1) familiarity; 2) getting your worth out of it. Also, he would be more likely to spend some time with you post flight. Familiarity goes both ways. The more time he spends with you the more likely you'll discover a gem of knowledge.
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The DPE is out of the loop for a month and I don't want to get rusty.
 
Sorry about the ride. You'll get it next time and it will be a short ride!
 
Wow. Tough ride. I am sure you will do great the next attempt.
 
I did something pretty similar to this flying a LOC with crossing radials for my IFR ride last summer. Forgot to hit the flip-flop and went off course ending in a bust, which my DPE felt bad about. The 2nd ride is a piece of cake, you'll get over the pink slip!

Anyone notice a rash of IFR ride pinkslips lately? Are people just getting more willing to talk about it?

asgcpa said:
So I spoke to him again, other than the hold everything was within PTS. He did tell me I could have paid closer attention to the Cdi needle on the bottom 430 as it appeared I was looking too much as the magenta line on the top 430 when I was doing my partial panel RNAV approach. He did say that I noticed and corrected while still within PTS parameters. He felt bad. He recommended a DPE that he sends his students to for rides who is a member of our club. He said that he doesn't believe this gentleman will retest other parts as they know each other, but, it is fair game, including the oral. He did say he felt bad as he wanted to give me the ticket, and I told him if I were testing me, I would have issued the fail so not to sweat it.

Spoke to the other DPE, and he told me that he will wait until I get back to him after talking to my CFI. He said most likely we will just go over the hold and ILS, but he would ask me a few questions.
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What does it mean "he wanted full automation and not me hand flying the hold"?
 
Sorry about your bust. I agree with someone else who said it's better to screw up with the DPE than for real. Even though I passed my ride, a few weeks later I almost got a PD because of something I didn't understand about my 480. It was only luck that no loss of separation occurred and the controller was in a good mood.
 
The hard part is done ,go out do a couple of practice holds and a few approach's and you will be fine. Good luck
 
asgcpa said:
He had me request vectors for the ILS 7 L and we informed them we would want a circle to land. Guess what? Unable. He requested a hold over the FAF for the ILS. I was somewhat flustered as this time and blew the hold using the GPS. I recognized it and asked for vectors to attempt it again. I had an issue with the right set up on the 430 as he wanted full automation and not me hand flying the hold.
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When you say the DPE wanted full automation, do you mean he wanted the 430 giving GPSS guidance to the AP to fly the hold at the FAF of the ILS?

If so, was the hold published, selectable in the approach?

If the hold was not published, how would you make that hold happen - with full automation to the AP? I wouldn't know how to setup a 430W to fly a hold at some non-published location. I thought only the 480 could do that.

Anxious to learn a new trick for my 530 if I've been overlooking something. Whenever I'm given an arbitrary holding point, I just do Direct-To that point, set and OBS course with a custom radial for whatever direction they want me to hold, and make the turns accordingly like they define. If there's an easier way, that'd be great!
 
Yes it was published and I selected the wrong waypoint. When I realized that it wasn't going to work, I disconnected AP to handfly it.
 
asgcpa said:
Yes it was published and I selected the wrong waypoint. When I realized that it wasn't going to work, I disconnected AP to handfly it.
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Ahhhh... I was reading your account thinking there *was not* a published hold at the FAF - and thought that would be a very sneaky thing to pull in a checkride.

You'll have no problem -- sounds like your 2nd ride won't last 20 minutes...

Good luck!
 
Martymccasland said:
When you say the DPE wanted full automation, do you mean he wanted the 430 giving GPSS guidance to the AP to fly the hold at the FAF of the ILS?

If so, was the hold published, selectable in the approach?

If the hold was not published, how would you make that hold happen - with full automation to the AP? I wouldn't know how to setup a 430W to fly a hold at some non-published location. I thought only the 480 could do that.

Anxious to learn a new trick for my 530 if I've been overlooking something. Whenever I'm given an arbitrary holding point, I just do Direct-To that point, set and OBS course with a custom radial for whatever direction they want me to hold, and make the turns accordingly like they define. If there's an easier way, that'd be great!
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You can fly an unpublished hold in OBS mode on a 430, but I can't off the top of my head think of a way to fully couple it to an autopilot in a way that wouldn't require a lot of manual tweeking, which unless you really know your system would likely increase workload vs. just hand flying the thing.
 
Richard said:
I would use the same DPE. Insist on it even. Two reasons, 1) familiarity; 2) getting your worth out of it. Also, he would be more likely to spend some time with you post flight. Familiarity goes both ways. The more time he spends with you the more likely you'll discover a gem of knowledge.
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Agree 100%. Using someone else would be like getting another CFI during primary training (which I had to do twice.). You'll have to prove to examiner #2 that you are safe and proficient, and I doubt he would be able to satisfy himself if he only flew a hold and an ILS with you.

EDIT: I just read what you said about him being in your club.
 
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GCA319 said:
You can fly an unpublished hold in OBS mode on a 430, but I can't off the top of my head think of a way to fully couple it to an autopilot in a way that wouldn't require a lot of manual tweeking, which unless you really know your system would likely increase workload vs. just hand flying the thing.
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Agree that flying an unpublished hold fully coupled would be difficult with my system (Century IIIc). That said, OBS mode on the GPS and heading mode on the autopilot wouldn't be too tough. The autopilot handles the standard rate, level turn while the pilot chooses the wind-corrected heading. All the pilot has to do is keep the gps in OBS and twist the heading select bug at the end of each leg.
 
Clark1961 said:
Agree that flying an unpublished hold fully coupled would be difficult with my system (Century IIIc). That said, OBS mode on the GPS and heading mode on the autopilot wouldn't be too tough. The autopilot handles the standard rate, level turn while the pilot chooses the wind-corrected heading. All the pilot has to do is keep the gps in OBS and twist the heading select bug at the end of each leg.
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That's exactly what I do -- with a CIIIc was well -- I was hoping the OP had found some really cool way to do an unpublished hold, fully coupled, with a 430/530... 'Was going to be the post of the year in my book.
 
asgcpa said:
Guess what? Unable. He requested a hold over the FAF for the ILS. I was somewhat flustered as this time and blew the hold using the GPS.
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Just reading this checkride recap got me flustered. No worries, you will crush the next one.
 
Clark1961 said:
Agree that flying an unpublished hold fully coupled would be difficult with my system (Century IIIc). That said, OBS mode on the GPS and heading mode on the autopilot wouldn't be too tough. The autopilot handles the standard rate, level turn while the pilot chooses the wind-corrected heading. All the pilot has to do is keep the gps in OBS and twist the heading select bug at the end of each leg.
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True.
 
You will pass the next time. If you learned from it and can take a positive mindset then it will be worthwhile. I am sure you will pass with flying colors next time! With the craziness of OSH traffic it is a tough time to do an IR checkride.
 
no worries. you will definitely be super proficient in holds. However, after flying ifr for several hundred hours I was only asked once to hold in a random dme and radial. The rest of my holds were just to comply with my 6hits. I was just getting established inbound when they vector me to the approach. It seems delaying vectors are more common than holds know a days.:dunno:
 
cirrusmx said:
no worries. you will definitely be super proficient in holds. However, after flying ifr for several hundred hours I was only asked once to hold in a random dme and radial. The rest of my holds were just to comply with my 6hits. I was just getting established inbound when they vector me to the approach. It seems delaying vectors are more common than holds know a days.:dunno:
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Ditto here. Have had my IR for 900 hours -- of which I've been on a IFR plan probably 80-90% of that. In that time, I've been given a grand total of 1 hold: heading into a small airport and 4-5 planes show up at the same time with a low ceiling.

The weird vectors do seem to be en-vogue. i.e. I was coming into my home Class C Monday, heading 315, going straight for the airport and told to expect 36. They want me to turn 270 -- for traffic. No problem, but when I go through the centerline I ask. They want me to now fly 360 -- a little left parallel to the runway. I'm guessing they will let me side step over and land since I'm only 5 miles or so out. Well, I get to about 2-3 miles out and am then given 090 -- and fly back through the center line and into the approach path of 04 L & R at 1500. Then 045 -- WTH? -- I'm lined up for 4L? Then 315 back at an angle for 36, close-in, and am cleared visual approach -- which consisted of little more than putting the gear down and flaring -- the tower can probably read my N-number with cheap Walmart binoculars I'm so close when handed off. A hold would probably have been cleaner for everyone.

FWIW, we seem to get lots of ATC trainees here (KLIT). I may have had one. When things get really strange (like Monday) there's usually a pause then some senior, seasoned voice comes on (kinda like James Earl Jones saying "This is CNN") and starts giving more normal ATC commands... I'm guessing it's the instructor/supervisor taking over. I wish I had a recording of some of the stranger things they've asked me to do.

Conversely, there's a few veteran controllers that I recognize by voice. I hear everything coming in and can see the traffic and wonder how he's going to sequence us without a bunch of vectors. He's a maestro, always sounds so calm, and gives minimum turns. He seems to play the game with speed -- asking me to speed up or slow down, ditto for others. I look forward to getting him each time.
 
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