backing a 172 into a parking spot, probably silly question

My flight school had a "no swing" policy so we always had to park perpendicular to the spot then push it back.
 
I strive for no-towbar back-ins when possible. Sometimes I miss and I have to pull the tow bar out.
 
exncsurfer said:
So, what is the proper way to get into one of these:
View attachment 48661
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But I will tell you what I do personally in that case. Seeing that there are lots of empty spots, I will pull in as close to the edge of the pavement as possible (and even in to the grass if it's flat and hard) so I can pull in forward with little or no push back.

Probably not real wise if the tie downs are ropes, but chains generally are not a problem.
 
Matthew said:
There may be times you'll need to swing it a little bit so the towbar can clear. MAGS OFF and be careful.
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Yes! Sooooooo important and can't be stressed enough. Make sure the key is either in your pocket or visible on top of the glare shield.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I strive for no-towbar back-ins when possible. Sometimes I miss and I have to pull the tow bar out.
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Me too. With a free-castering nose wheel, you have to make small corrections early and often.
 
The other thing you don't do (if there are planes parked in nearby spots) is taxi near the spot and turn the plane with rudder, brake, and power, blasting the adjacent plane(s) with your propwash. I see morons do that all to often. Another thing flight schools don't seem to teach nowadays.
 
Training at a busy airport or most Class Deltas often the FBO deals with handling and fueling the planes. I had a similar learning experience and had to push my CFIs to teach me some of the non-flying stuff regarding aircraft. I still don't feel really comfortable tying a tie-down hitch. I'm knot challenged, I usually end up tying some sort of granny knot.
 
labbadabba said:
I'm knot challenged, I usually end up tying some sort of granny knot.
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Let's not over-think this, guys and gals.
You push down on the tail and shove it backwards to where you want it to be.
 
rolivi said:
You got through your PPL without ever touching a tow-bar? WOW!

And in the diagram you posted you should have been able to approach that spot with 1 wheel very near the grass and swing it in to the spot. Maybe a little straight back push.
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Having witnessed a 182 pick up a wheel chock and ruin an engine, I'll suggest that taxiing over or through a parking space is not a good idea.

It's also rude to start the engine in a parking space unless there is NOTHING behind you. Not even wingtips of derelict airplanes. And there is plenty of clearance on the wingtips to neighboring airplanes.
 
I got to feel like a dumbass here (KUOS): https://www.google.com/maps/@35.2049753,-85.8996841,97m/data=!3m1!1e3

Those are back-into spots, but it wasn't obvious to me the tail was supposed to hang over the grass so I pulled forward. It's not visible from the overhead, but those spots slope down to the grass. And we all know how reliable parking brakes are on planes.

So I got to push my airplane (mooney) uphill far enough to get it stopped, put the towbar on it and then push it back into place.
 
During my flight training I used the tow bar, tied down the airplane, used the self service fuel pump, added oil and other non-flying tasks. I always thought that was the norm.
 
Shepherd said:
Let's not over-think this, guys and gals.
You push down on the tail and shove it backwards to where you want it to be.
Click to expand...
You obviously have not had to repair the forward spar in a 172. Reading the post 42 on the repair is informative as it explains why you do not want to push down on the tail unless you know where to push on a 172 .. The tow bar is a swell tool.
 
MAKG1 said:
Having witnessed a 182 pick up a wheel chock and ruin an engine, I'll suggest that taxiing over or through a parking space is not a good idea.

It's also rude to start the engine in a parking space unless there is NOTHING behind you. Not even wingtips of derelict airplanes. And there is plenty of clearance on the wingtips to neighboring airplanes.
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Did you see the picture in the original post? Nothing but grass behind, two open spaces?

I guess we need OP to tell us if that is the ACTUAL spot or something similar. But that looks like a spin in spot for me.

If it were between planes of course you go for as close to perpendicular to the parked planes and grab the tow bar. I have a castering nose wheel. I don't push or pull without a tow bar.
 
Simple solution. Taxi behind the parking spot in the grass and pull straight in.

It helps to think of these things if you are as lazy as I am.... :idea:
 
rolivi said:
Did you see the picture in the original post? Nothing but grass behind, two open spaces?

I guess we need OP to tell us if that is the ACTUAL spot or something similar. But that looks like a spin in spot for me.

If it were between planes of course you go for as close to perpendicular to the parked planes and grab the tow bar. I have a castering nose wheel. I don't push or pull without a tow bar.
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Unless it is known not to have tiedowns, it is still not a good idea to power into the space. It's ugly when the prop picks something up, and I doubt anyone ever expects it.

There may or may not be something behind the grass. Look behind before starting. Pull it out for engine start if there is any doubt.

The CAP plane I usually fly has a golf course behind it. No other planes, but I doubt the golfers appreciate prop blast very much. So, we pull the plane out EVERY time. And that sucker is a whole lot heavier than a 172. Uphill pushing it into the space, too. Sucks solo, but that's what it is.
 
patrick wentworth said:
You obviously have not had to repair the forward spar in a 172. Reading the post 42 on the repair is informative as it explains why you do not want to push down on the tail unless you know where to push on a 172 .. The tow bar is a swell tool.
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Some (many) pilots are oblivious to how fragile certain parts of airplanes are. Case in point: watch how many people push the plane back via the spinner. Ever actually taken the spinner off your airplane and looked at what holds if on? If you have, you know why it's not a good idea to push a multi-thousand pound airplane back using the spinner as your push point. Based on the prop? No problem? Spinner? Problem.
 
Another great reason to fly a taildragger. Lift the tail, and walk it back into position. If you have a full swivel tailwheel,you don't even have to lift it.
 
MAKG1 said:
The CAP plane I usually fly has a golf course behind it. No other planes, but I doubt the golfers appreciate prop blast very much. So, we pull the plane out EVERY time. And that sucker is a whole lot heavier than a 172. Uphill pushing it into the space, too. Sucks solo, but that's what it is.
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Can't you just yell "Clear" and then turn around and yell "Fore"?

Kidding of course.

We probably agree that safety is more important than convenience during ground operations.
 
I know at least one flight school in our area where they teach a LOT of taxiing and a little bit of flying (out of a Charlie airport) and forget the rest, the line guys take care of that.
That's why I try to take our local student pilots on trips with me to show them the real-world side of aviation, how things work after one gets a license. Planning, briefing, fueling, parking and securing included. Some students are surprised and all so far have been enjoying it.
Now that I think of it, my pilot friends did the same with me when I was learning to fly so I had plenty of input and real-world experience. It was fun too.
 
Personally I used the tow bar before 10 hours of flight time...sitting at 22 hours now. This is probably due to my curiosity but I knew how to use the bar well before I started flight school.
 
Good advice about the tow bar, but with the limitation on turning the nose gear on a 172, you would be way out on the ramp turning and getting lined up. Use the tow bar, but as long as you have an area (like the picture you posted) that doesn't have parked airplanes, come from that direction. Don't taxi fast, but keep moving. Just before you get to your parking position, use your left brake (in your picture example) and turn perpendicular to the parking posisiton, hopefully lined up on the white line (the stem of the "T") of the parking position. Unless you mess up, you won't need a blast of power. Get out and attach the tow bar, then pushing on the top of the cowling just behind the prop, get the plane moving and steer with the tow bar. I do this all the time at our T Hangar (into which you have to back similar to your parking problem). If you do need to turn a 172 by pushing down on the tail, do not push on the stabilizer anywhere. Push on the fin just in front of the rudder, but be very gentle and spread out the contact area by using your forearm. I have been doing it like this for many years now and have never (knock on wood) damaged one of my airplanes. Keep in mind that the sheet metal is very thin and you need to be careful to apply any pressure at points that are reinforced or bent to give them more strength.

You have my $0.02 worth.
 
Ryanb said:
If you push in the correct spot it wont hurt it a bit.
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And finding the correct spot? Most guys will push in whatever spot is handy, and it will be the wrong spot. ANYWHERE on a 172's stab is the wrong spot. I make my living fixing airplanes, and have had to have several stabilizers rebuilt due to spars cracked by being handled like that.

The stabilizer/elevator combination, as a unit, is an airfoil. Its center of pressure is at around 40%, near the aft stab spar. If you take a close look at those spars when the airplane is opened up, you'll see that the aft spar has a lot more structure to it than the forward spar, reflecting the difference in aerodynamic loading. Pushing down on the stab loads that front spar way beyond what it was supposed to take, causing it to flex around its center hole and eventually cracking outward from that hole. Expensive. And the nose rib next to the fuselage gets crushed, too. More expensive.

The stab was designed to take loads in flight. The distance, and therefore the moment, between the CG and CP is small, far smaller than the distance between the CG and the main wheels when they're on the ground. The downforce on the stab to lift the nosewheel off the ground, especially on that forward spar, is way higher than it was designed for.

Generally, most airplanes sustain damage when being manhandled handled on the ground, not in accidents. Too many folks treat them like their cars, failing to realize that to be able to fly, they're made of thin stuff.
 
Ryanb said:
They like to play the conservative parent. What's going to happen when you get out on your own? Learning to fly is more than just being able to fly the airplane.
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The attitude is that they can learn that after they leave. It's to much of an aircraft liability to have the students touch them on the ground.
 
One thing to notice about using a towbar on a 172: The nose gear strut has a centering cam, so that when the weight is off the strut and it is extended, it cannot turn. The purpose of that is to keep the nosewheel centered in flight regardless of rudder deflection.

Therefore, if the nose strut is over-inflated, or if there is a heavy load in the back of the airplane such that the nose strut is fully (or almost fully) extended, you won't be able to steer it on the ground with the towbar.
 
ARFlyer said:
The attitude is that they can learn that after they leave. It's to much of an aircraft liability to have the students touch them on the ground.
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I'm sure glad they don't train surgeons that way.

Education all across the spectrum is being dumbed down. Make it easier to "pass" a course. Keep people from learning stuff they need to know because they might damage something. Teach by rote ("pull the carb heat on downwind") instead of teaching why and what for. Come up with more automatic stuff so they won't hurt themselves. Like ABS brakes that let a driver get into the habit of pushing as hard as he likes, until he hits a road so slippery that the computer can't save him. Dead. Dead because he didn't learn to feel the surface.

Pilots need to know how to fuel an airplane. How to move it around. How to tie it down properly. NONE of that needs to damage the airplane. Not knowing it is dangerous, and sooner or later some relatives will sue a flight school becuse they didn't teach these things and the victim inadvertently damaged something that ended up causing a fatal accident.
 
Dan Thomas said:
And finding the correct spot? Most guys will push in whatever spot is handy, and it will be the wrong spot. ANYWHERE on a 172's stab is the wrong spot. I make my living fixing airplanes, and have had to have several stabilizers rebuilt due to spars cracked by being handled like that.

The stabilizer/elevator combination, as a unit, is an airfoil. Its center of pressure is at around 40%, near the aft stab spar. If you take a close look at those spars when the airplane is opened up, you'll see that the aft spar has a lot more structure to it than the forward spar, reflecting the difference in aerodynamic loading. Pushing down on the stab loads that front spar way beyond what it was supposed to take, causing it to flex around its center hole and eventually cracking outward from that hole. Expensive. And the nose rib next to the fuselage gets crushed, too. More expensive.

The stab was designed to take loads in flight. The distance, and therefore the moment, between the CG and CP is small, far smaller than the distance between the CG and the main wheels when they're on the ground. The downforce on the stab to lift the nosewheel off the ground, especially on that forward spar, is way higher than it was designed for.

Generally, most airplanes sustain damage when being manhandled handled on the ground, not in accidents. Too many folks treat them like their cars, failing to realize that to be able to fly, they're made of thin stuff.
Click to expand...

Common sense and a little knowledge of aircraft, or just general machines.

It's really not that complicated.

Ofcourse you also have the mental midgets who push spinners and kick nose wheel pants
 
patrick wentworth said:
You obviously have not had to repair the forward spar in a 172. Reading the post 42 on the repair is informative as it explains why you do not want to push down on the tail unless you know where to push on a 172 .. The tow bar is a swell tool.
Click to expand...
In 50+ years I have never damaged a plane by pushing down on the tail, even on a Cessna (of any flavor), but then, I never push down on a horizontal stabilizer, of any flavor.
 
exncsurfer said:
So, I get to the destination airport, all the 'easy' tie down spots are taken, all the empty ones are 'back in'. So I pull up to a position where'd you'd use the reverse in your car to back in, and I shut down. Being my first time parking at such a place, I have no idea how to get the plane back into the spot. After some toil and having my kid step on the rudder pedal I get it mostly in position. Needless to say I felt kinda stupid, there was at least one unhelpful onlooker sitting in one of those 'easy' parking spots, probably getting a good chuckle.

I've been spoiled by the line crew at my training airport, and all other places i've been have had a guy on the ground waiving you to your pull-through spot.

So, what is the proper way to get into one of these:
View attachment 48661

I think I found the answer in the baggage compartment after I had done it the hard way. There was a red bar/handle thingy in there, I suspect its made for hooking to the front wheel and would allow you to push/pull/turn it. If that is it, i'll have to get someone to show me how to use that thing. Still the 172 isn't exactly light, maybe I just need to work out, do some weight training.
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You do this. Take 3 twenty dollar bills to a CFI. NOT one from the same school you learned to fly at. Preferably a crusty old coot who looks like he probably should be down at the corner with a "will work for food" sign. Tell him your story and ask what other surprises you might have someday.
 
For those who like to push down on the tail, do you know the cost of re-skinning the horizontal when you dent it?
$3750.00 materials and labor to repair, add labor to remove re-instal paint and new hardware.

Got insurance for the damage you do?
 
Tom-D said:
For those who like to push down on the tail, do you know the cost of re-skinning the horizontal when you dent it?
$3750.00 materials and labor to repair, add labor to remove re-instal paint and new hardware.

Got insurance for the damage you do?
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Insurance does cover that, yes. Insurance covers owner stupidity.
 
Shepherd said:
In 50+ years I have never damaged a plane by pushing down on the tail, even on a Cessna (of any flavor), but then, I never push down on a horizontal stabilizer, of any flavor.
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You fly and push taildraggers, right? :)
 
mtuomi said:
Insurance does cover that, yes. Insurance covers owner stupidity.
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How many student pilots carry that type of insurance?
How many CFI's teach the proper method ?
 
Tom-D said:
How many student pilots carry that type of insurance?
How many CFI's teach the proper method ?
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Non-owned insurance will cover that, so I'd say many many student pilots carry that.
If a CFI doesn't teach how to handle the plane properly in different situations, well, maybe it's time to find a new CFI.
 
mtuomi said:
Non-owned insurance will cover that, so I'd say many many student pilots carry that.
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I see by that your experience is very limited. I see posts often that show the pilot was charged by the flight school for the damage done by them and they have no insurance to cover it.
I no longer have aircraft on the rental line but when I did renters insurance was a requirement prior to lesson one.
 
Tom-D said:
I see by that your experience is very limited. I see posts often that show the pilot was charged by the flight school for the damage done by them and they have no insurance to cover it.
I no longer have aircraft on the rental line but when I did renters insurance was a requirement prior to lesson one.
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Where exactly do you disagree with me? I said: Non-owned insurance will cover that, so I'd say many students have that.
You required that prior to lesson one, and I can say many other schools do too. I don't see the disagreement.
 
mtuomi said:
Where exactly do you disagree with me? I said: Non-owned insurance will cover that, so I'd say many students have that.
You required that prior to lesson one, and I can say many other schools do too. I don't see the disagreement.
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I'm saying many students do not carry this insurance. simply because they believe the CFI has them covered. and remember they are not all in part 141 schools. students do rent other owners aircraft to train in.
 
Shepherd said:
Let's not over-think this, guys and gals.
You push down on the tail and shove it backwards to where you want it to be.
Click to expand...
Where do you place your hands prior to pushing down?
 
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