B407 vs C172
- Thread starter RotaryWingBob
- Start date
ScottM
Taxi to Parking
- Joined
- Jul 19, 2005
- Messages
- 42,530
- Location
- Variable, but somewhere on earth
- Display Name
Display name:
iBazinga!
Any Traffic on the Taxiway Please Adivse
AdamZ
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2005
- Messages
- 14,869
- Location
- Montgomery County PA
- Display Name
Display name:
Adam Zucker
Bob, no way from the video to tell who was at fault probably both are responsible but the speed of the Bell seemed a bit fast. Would that be a standard taxi speed for a helo on skids such as the B407 I know the ones at Wings with retract gear go much slower.
ScottM
Taxi to Parking
- Joined
- Jul 19, 2005
- Messages
- 42,530
- Location
- Variable, but somewhere on earth
- Display Name
Display name:
iBazinga!
Well I don't think was trying to lay blame. But I agree not enough info to tell who was at fault.
The consensus on Vertical Reference was that the 407 was probably fast, but that neither pilot was paying attention. The opposing view was that the F/W was clearly at fault because R/W drivers are always right
There are two forms of taxiing: a normal taxi in congested areas which would be about the same speed an airplane would taxi, and an "air taxi". Air taxis are typically done in the 20-30 kt range, and are used where there is no congestion. ATC will sometimes ask specifically for an air taxi.
ScottM
Taxi to Parking
- Joined
- Jul 19, 2005
- Messages
- 42,530
- Location
- Variable, but somewhere on earth
- Display Name
Display name:
iBazinga!
The consensus on Vertical Reference was that the 407 was probably fast, but that neither pilot was paying attention. The opposing view was that the F/W was clearly at fault because R/W drivers are always right
There are two forms of taxiing: a normal taxi in congested areas which would be about the same speed an airplane would taxi, and an "air taxi". Air taxis are typically done in the 20-30 kt range, and are used where there is no congestion. ATC will sometimes ask specifically for an air taxi.
Was the airport a Class D?
If not I would also say that the person who is already on the taxiway would likely be able to claim right away while the helo should have waited until the taxiway was clear.
It seems as though the high wing did not see the helo at all. Who knows what he was doing. He could have been fooling around with some of the knobs in the airplane and was not paying attention, which is why I don't touch anything until I am stopped at the hold short line.
Pi1otguy
Pattern Altitude
I thought air taxis are done <100' AGL essentially above all ground traffic. Seems like a better idea in this case other then the downwash issue for the 172.
You have the 100' part right, but the FAA Rotorcraft Flying Manual goes on to say: "below 100 feet AGL, and to avoid overflight of other aircraft, vehicles, and personnel."
I can't speak for everyone, but I've never done an air taxi over maybe 15-20 AGL.
Pi1otguy
Pattern Altitude
Hmm... Thats alot different then what I envisioned when I read about air taxi. I always pictured some guy cruising across the field at 50' AGL (upper limit of IGE?) @ 20-30kts while avoiding active runways. Well, add it to the list of things I didn't know about you guys.
If its a towered field, it looks like the ground should have issued a "hold position" to the 172 or tower should have said "exit taxiway ...". The helo was simply clearing the runway. It's a lapse of foresight.
astanley
En-Route
Whoops, I need to change my pants. That's a poop factor 4 video.
Cheers,
-Andrew
who would have been in full on lizard brain, adrenaline mode
Cheers,
-Andrew
who would have been in full on lizard brain, adrenaline mode
K
KennyFlys
Guest
The Skyhawk was continuing on the same taxiway. He was a tad fast but all he could do is look left and right at each intersecting taxiway and runway as he continued.
The helo made one turn rather rapidly and had to be not looking very well to not see the Skyhawk ahead on a parallel taxiway. On top of that, he continued to begin a second turn and narrowly avoided collision. I think a contributing factor is his high pitch which I'd think would affect his view of monitoring instruments and looking far down the taxiway. Along with that, he probably wasn't monitoring the closer areas of the taxiway he was on as well as those nearby.
Does anyone else call out, "Clear right" or "Clear left" before making a turn in the opposite direction during taxi? It should be no different than verifying base and final are clear before taxiing onto the runway for departure.
The helo made one turn rather rapidly and had to be not looking very well to not see the Skyhawk ahead on a parallel taxiway. On top of that, he continued to begin a second turn and narrowly avoided collision. I think a contributing factor is his high pitch which I'd think would affect his view of monitoring instruments and looking far down the taxiway. Along with that, he probably wasn't monitoring the closer areas of the taxiway he was on as well as those nearby.
Does anyone else call out, "Clear right" or "Clear left" before making a turn in the opposite direction during taxi? It should be no different than verifying base and final are clear before taxiing onto the runway for departure.
Teller1900
En-Route
Yup. "Clear right" and "Clear left" are required call outs at any intersection (taxiway, road, runway). "Cleared across" is required if crossing a runway. "Clear right, clear ahead, clear left" for all turns in the pattern.
No matter who screwed up, that helo pilot had a nice save. That can't be an easy maneuver and still maintain control or not hit the stinger on the concrete.
t0r0nad0
Pattern Altitude
Pure speculation here, but I definitely think that the helo pilot couldn't see the Cessna. Contributing to this is the high pitch angle, and the fact that the helo pilot sits on the right side of the aircraft, so there is a lot of airframe in the way of him seeing that Cessna. Now, there's no telling why the Cessna driver couldn't see that helo come in on the runway or turn off on the taxiway.
That one I won't buy. The 407 like most light helicopters has excellent visibilty over a large (greater than 180 degree) arc. Besides, if he couldn't see, then he should have stopped before turning off the runway, done a 90 degree pedal turn to the left, looked both ways, and then continued off the runway. The high pitch angle on the runway is because he was doing a rapid deceleration perhaps coupled with an aft CG. Nothing unusual there and I don't see how the nose up pitch would have contributed -- the panel on a 407 (again like most helicopters) is low enough that it's easy to see over (not at all like an airplane).
Also, even from the right seat, he shouldn't have had a big enough blind spot for that to have been a factor.
t0r0nad0
Pattern Altitude
I stand corrected then. Like I said, it was pure speculation.