Avoiding C90

If you go around to the south I wonder if you should plan on KELSI intersection. What do you regular Midwest pilots think?

Possible, but my guess would be EON and then direct or radar vectors. Direct has her passing west of SIMMN, which seems to be a key point for them. Of course, I'm usually going into or out of 1C5, so my experiences could differ. Kent talks about getting KELSI a lot (and I'm not referring to his fiancée!)'
 
There is no way I'm going to try the southern route IFR, too much chance of a LONG reroute. If I go around the south side it will be VFR over the Bravo, or maybe under it (though I'm not sure that would work since I'd have to talk to C90 to get through the KMDW Class C).

Given the weather lately it would be REALLY lucky if I was even able to do this IFR. More likely it will have to be VFR under or around the Bravo. If it comes to that I'll probably let someone else pick up Peppy in South Bend or thereabouts.
 
If you go around to the south I wonder if you should plan on KELSI intersection. What do you regular Midwest pilots think?
Wayyy too far. V8 JOT V171 SIMMN is more like it.

Liz if you get to KELSI you might as well come to Peoria and I'll drive to lunch.
 
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Possible, but my guess would be EON and then direct or radar vectors. Direct has her passing west of SIMMN, which seems to be a key point for them. Of course, I'm usually going into or out of 1C5, so my experiences could differ. Kent talks about getting KELSI a lot (and I'm not referring to his fiancée!)'

EON direct KFEP enters C90 airspace, anyone going around to the south should expect KELSI.
 
Bruce: I'll consider this, thanks. I absolutely could care less about the extra 15-odd miles. It's the gymnastics to descend 9000 feet from the west side of the Bravo that were bothering me. But after running the math, it isn't as bad as I thought. If I slow to 90 I really only need 30nm to descend at 500 fpm. I prefer to level off a couple times and yawn hard, but I think it's doable.

Steven: how far north?

This time of year you probably don't want to go that high anyway, or your 90 kt descent might actually be 40 kts across the ground.
 
Don't be afraid of EON if coming from the east. That is often given in your clearence as it is the hand off point between Chi-Center and Chi-TRACON. It has always been my experience that when you get it, you don't have to fly to it. Often you will be handed off to TRACON who will start the radar vector dance, you'll most likely get the turn to JOT and then RV up towards SIMMN or even better they'll keep you moving to the west to hand you off as quick as possible to RFD.
 
Not if the goal is avoiding C90.
Correct! She needs to go VFR.

She'll be able to negotiate V8 JOT V171 SIMMN if she stays in contact and negotiates. But 10.5 over the topfrom the south lakeshore to FEB is close to DIRECT. :goofy:
 
Wayyy too far. V8 JOT V171 SIMMN is more like it.

Liz if you get to KELSI you might as well come to Peoria and I'll drive to lunch.
Thanks Bruce, but it will have to be another time. If there's even a CHANCE they'll send me to KELSI I'll go the northern route.

But see post #42. It sounds like they want to do this on Thursday. The handlers even cleared their calendar so they're free the whole day. Looking at the extended, it looks like ICE. So VFR, if at all, and under rather than over.

Is under possible?
 
Actually, the northerly route is worth considering for the return trip. I will need fuel and Airnav shows KBUU at $4.69. KJVL and KEFT are pretty low too.

edit: or maybe not. That's pretty close to the LM shore. Unfamiliar fuel source, followed immediately by open water...

Liz, FWIW I frequently fuel at KBUU. Never had an issue. I know Ted has fueled there as well - It's a very popular fuel stop due to the low prices.

Possible, but my guess would be EON and then direct or radar vectors. Direct has her passing west of SIMMN, which seems to be a key point for them. Of course, I'm usually going into or out of 1C5, so my experiences could differ. Kent talks about getting KELSI a lot (and I'm not referring to his fiancée!)'

:rofl:

Yeah, I was going to suggest that IFR over land, either KELSI or via the A/FD-published preferred routing from South Bend to Rockford - I forget what it is but I've used a piece of it before and not been rerouted.

There is a particular over-water routing they use too, but I don't know what it is, since I've never used it - I only go over the lake via MTW-MBL or FAH-HIC or something else that takes me far enough north to minimize exposure - The lake is quite a bit wider farther south. For me, it's not only the idea of dying, it's also the extreme unpleasantness of doing so via an icy bath that keeps me mostly within gliding distance of shore. (I did hop the lake both yesterday and today - Yesterday direct KSPW-KCAD at 17,000 and today KCAD-MTW-KSBM at 16,000.)

I would suggest you call Milwaukee Approach on the phone and ask them what the over-water routing is - You'll be talking to them at some point and I'm sure they know what it is as they have to hand it out fairly often. I'm sure Madison and Rockford could tell you what it is too.
 
If you go around to the south I wonder if you should plan on KELSI intersection. What do you regular Midwest pilots think?
KELSI always works for me flying from MN to KLAF. If I were flying around the south side of Chicago, I'd expect EON KELSI is about what you'd be assigned altough i things weren't real busy you might get away with CGT JOT KELSI (or nearby URRBS). I have flown the CGT-JOT route IFR in the past down at 3000-4000. The problem with IFR over the lake is that you are likely to get pushed much further north than a direct line from VLL to FEP and therefore will get to spend a lot of time over the middle of the lake. It wouldn't surprise me if they kept you fairly low over the water as well. The southern route is far less likely to provide an opportunity to see how well your airplane handles ice as well.
 
Flew under all the time when I lived there, but seldom used flight following.
Sounds like I need to find a route that avoids the Midway Charlie then.

Kent: thanks for the pirep on Burlington. As to dying in the lake, I don't think there is any pleasant way to die, and there are worse things than death, like quadriplegia or persistent vegetative state. I think that those are a much likelier outcome of engine failure at night pretty much everywhere I fly, as compared with recoverable injury. I fly ~30 hours every year at night, not to mention trips over large areas covered with trees. I consider a half hour additional risk a year to be acceptable. I'll still prefer the shorter crossings and get as high as I can, but I won't go 100 miles out of my way to avoid the lake (e.g. I'd go over it to KATW or KOSH without a second thought).

Here going around the south side doesn't really add that much distance as long as I do it as two direct legs. But that only works if Chicago doesn't reroute me to some place like KELSI. That's why VFR as Bruce suggests or (if IFR) straight over the lake via JVL seem like my best choices. Calling MKE and RFD App is a good idea, thanks. It probably won't come to that though, as I posted above.
 
KELSI always works for me flying from MN to KLAF. If I were flying around the south side of Chicago, I'd expect EON KELSI is about what you'd be assigned altough i things weren't real busy you might get away with CGT JOT KELSI (or nearby URRBS). I have flown the CGT-JOT route IFR in the past down at 3000-4000. The problem with IFR over the lake is that you are likely to get pushed much further north than a direct line from VLL to FEP and therefore will get to spend a lot of time over the middle of the lake. It wouldn't surprise me if they kept you fairly low over the water as well. The southern route is far less likely to provide an opportunity to see how well your airplane handles ice as well.
If they tried to keep me low over the water I'd cancel.

What is "much further north" than VLL direct FEP? Steven suggested BRAVE VEENA JVL, am I likely to get routed even further than that?

Subfreezing clouds are pretty much always a showstopper for me. It doesn't matter to me if they're over the lake or somewhere else, I'll be under them, VFR if necessary.
 
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Correct! She needs to go VFR.

She'll be able to negotiate V8 JOT V171 SIMMN if she stays in contact and negotiates. But 10.5 over the topfrom the south lakeshore to FEB is close to DIRECT. :goofy:

If she goes VFR she has nobody to negotiate with for that route.
 
VFR is the way to do it. 1200 loud and proud, baby. Make those C90 folks reroute traffic around you and keep your head on a swivel.

I understand you want to use your new rating. So do I. But some days and routes the juice just isn't worth the squeeze.

As to the descent after the Bravo - that is more than enough room. While my wife prefers rapid descents because she dislikes the bumps near the ground not everyone agrees. As has been pointed out, trim for 90 knots and 500 fpm just like you're shooting an instrument approach, you'll be down to traffic pattern altitude in 27nm. The folks at Rockford are usually nice to talk to as you transit the TRSA.
 
I understand you want to use your new rating. So do I. But some days and routes the juice just isn't worth the squeeze.
I don't get that. An IFR rating is like windshield wipers on your car. You need it to make travel reliable in varying weather, but why would you use it when it's not beneficial ?
 
I don't get that. An IFR rating is like windshield wipers on your car. You need it to make travel reliable in varying weather, but why would you use it when it's not beneficial ?
Because wipers are the opposite, the less you use them, the better they work.
 
If they tried to keep me low over the water I'd cancel.

What is "much further north" than VLL direct FEP? Steven suggested BRAVE VEENA JVL, am I likely to get routed even further than that?
On a similar flight I've gotten pushed up to MKG and maybe BAE on the Wisconsin side. I think the routing depends greatly on which flow pattern ORD is using. That ripples out to affect traffic into several other airports within about 50 miles and your routing may take you clear of that. In general, I've found that C90 pretty much dictates what center can do within 50-80 miles of ORD, especially for transient traffic and the routes you get over the lake generally don't accommodate the single engine pilot's desires WRT overwater altitudes and distance from shore.

Subfreezing clouds are pretty much always a showstopper for me. It doesn't matter to me if they're over the lake or somewhere else, I'll be under them, VFR if necessary.
Part of the issue is that clouds along the lakeshore are very common. If you can top them (fairly likely in the winter if there's no frontal activity) it's no big deal but if you have to go under that puts you out of dry feet range for a loooonnng time. My earlier point about ice is that when ice blocks your way across the lake it's quite possible that there's an ice free (and maybe cloud free) route around the lake.

FWIW, even the most out of the way routing you'd get circumnavigating ORD over land will only add about 45nm (about 20 minutes in your airplane) to a direct routing and the difference will be even less if you compare it with a longer non-direct IFR route across the lake. If you go north and they push you up to MKG the southern route could actually be shorter. Finally, if there's a stiff westerly wind up high (also pretty common in the winter and not unusual in the summer), that wind can easily eat well into those 20 minutes going high across the lake vs around the south side.

I understand your thoughts on crossing the lake and for the most part agree, especially if you're not hauling passengers who might not really understand the risk and have made the crossing many times in single engine airplanes (a twin reduces the risk significantly but doesn't totally eliminate it either). I do believe that you are entirely correct about the fact that we pilots face similar risks with far less concern all the time.

And while there are indeed worse things than death, IMO freezing to death in cold water has to be one of the worst ways to die. I always tried to reduce the risk to the extent that I could by crossing at one of the two narrow routes and going very high (i.e 13,000 and above, carrying a raft etc).

Personally, I'd probably go VFR around Chicago between 2500 and 3500 MSL staying out of the Class B. Even if you avoid MDW's airspace completely this only adds about 15nm to a direct route and eliminates going high into a big wind. Coming back, going 11.5 (or higher) over the top of ORD might work pretty well if there aren't any clouds to contend with.

Keep in mind that you can go IFR part way in either direction if you want to get a taste of that as well.
 
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VFR is the way to do it. 1200 loud and proud, baby. Make those C90 folks reroute traffic around you and keep your head on a swivel.

Going VFR doesn't make ATC reroute traffic around you. It just requires a traffic advisory or safety alert, as needed, if they happen to observe your target.
 
As to dying in the lake, I don't think there is any pleasant way to die, and there are worse things than death, like quadriplegia or persistent vegetative state. I think that those are a much likelier outcome of engine failure at night pretty much everywhere I fly, as compared with recoverable injury. I fly ~30 hours every year at night, not to mention trips over large areas covered with trees. I consider a half hour additional risk a year to be acceptable.

Well... I hope I go like my grandmother did. Sudden "medical event" and she just dropped dead at age 84, still living on her own and active, but she'd prepared well and left letters to her kids. Boom, done, no suffering at all.

I also fly at night frequently, but I figure that at night there's still a reasonable chance that I'll be able to put down somewhere where my injuries will be survivable and recoverable. Go down in the lake this time of year and you are 99.9999999999% guaranteed to have a horrible death. (The 0.0000000001% is if you happen to go in right next to a Coast Guard boat.)

I probably think about it differently than others because a plane that I have flown went into the lake. Pilot was uninjured in the ditching (he called 911 from the wing afterwards) and got to die via an icy cold bath in the lake. <shudder>
 
Well... I hope I go like my grandmother did. Sudden "medical event" and she just dropped dead at age 84, still living on her own and active, but she'd prepared well and left letters to her kids. Boom, done, no suffering at all.

When I die I want to die like my Dad died; quietly, in his sleep. Not screaming like his passengers.
 
Well the mission has been taken by someone else. I'm a little unhappy with the way it was handled since it seemed that the handlers on both ends were clearing their schedules for Thursday which I had said was my most flexible day. I even told some people at work today that I would likely not be available for anything on Thursday. If I'd known that I was their backup plan and they were really trying to get it done sooner, I would have saved everyone some trouble.
 
Actually, the northerly route is worth considering for the return trip. I will need fuel and Airnav shows KBUU at $4.69. KJVL and KEFT are pretty low too.

edit: or maybe not. That's pretty close to the LM shore. Unfamiliar fuel source, followed immediately by open water...

KBUU is plenty fine for fuel. That is our club's backup fuel when our home field runs out. Pumps are modern and airport is fairly well maintained considering it is mostly GA. I would not hesitate to fuel up there before an overwater flight but I would do a climbing spiral to get high enough before getting feet wet.
 
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