Avionics placement mistakes

iamtheari

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The subject is what I want to avoid. I’m doing a new panel in the 310. When it’s done, I’ll have a G500 TXi (10” with EIS), GI 275, GCU 485 PFD controller, GFC 600 autopilot control head, GTN 750 Xi, GTN 650 Xi, GTX 345 transponder, and GMA 340 audio panel. (And zero dollars.)

The center stack is the blank canvas to work with. I am looking at a couple options for it but I wonder if anyone has opinions or good/bad experiences to help me out.

My first two napkin drawings are:
  1. Line up the tops of the TXi, 750, and 650 and then stack the autopilot below the 750 and the transponder and audio panel below the 650.
  2. Stack the 750 and 650 in the left half and stack the audio panel, transponder, and autopilot control panel to the right.
Placing the PFD controller is a separate mystery. The throttle pedestal where the old autopilot head was will fit, but risks people (mostly me) bumping and breaking the knobs off.

In my RV-14, I have a simpler panel and love it so far. G5 backup instrument on the left, G3X Touch 10” PFD, GTN 650 Xi over autopilot control head in the middle, 10” MFD I rarely look at, and remote everything else.
 
That is going to be an amazing panel.

I'd put the audio panel at the very top, under that the 750, then the 650, then the autopilot. If you have room left at the very bottom put in the transponder, if not put it off to the right. Reason being that after you set the transponder you might touch it once or twice, but the 750, 650, and autopilot are interreacted with a lot and should be in the prime position.
 
IMG_1305.JPG
The subject is what I want to avoid. I’m doing a new panel in the 310. When it’s done, I’ll have a G500 TXi (10” with EIS), GI 275, GCU 485 PFD controller, GFC 600 autopilot control head, GTN 750 Xi, GTN 650 Xi, GTX 345 transponder, and GMA 340 audio panel. (And zero dollars.)

The center stack is the blank canvas to work with. I am looking at a couple options for it but I wonder if anyone has opinions or good/bad experiences to help me out.

My first two napkin drawings are:
  1. Line up the tops of the TXi, 750, and 650 and then stack the autopilot below the 750 and the transponder and audio panel below the 650.
  2. Stack the 750 and 650 in the left half and stack the audio panel, transponder, and autopilot control panel to the right.
Placing the PFD controller is a separate mystery. The throttle pedestal where the old autopilot head was will fit, but risks people (mostly me) bumping and breaking the knobs off.

In my RV-14, I have a simpler panel and love it so far. G5 backup instrument on the left, G3X Touch 10” PFD, GTN 650 Xi over autopilot control head in the middle, 10” MFD I rarely look at, and remote everything else.

I think maybe the AP should between the 750 and 650 since I twist on the knobs on the AP for the heading and altitude even when I am not using the AP. Put it up high where ever you can get to it most comfortably?
 
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IMG_1305.JPG


I think maybe the AP should between the 750 and 650 since I twist on the knobs on the AP for the heading and altitude even when I am not using the AP. Put it up high where ever you can get to it most comfortably?
The GFC 600 control head is different from the GFC 500 you have. My RV-14 basically has the 500 and I, too, twist those knobs a lot. The 600 just has buttons and the little wheel, though. You use the PFD (or the separate GCU 485 controller) to adjust heading, altitude, and so on. The main "gotta find it now" use for the 600 control head is probably just the AP button. So as long as I can find that one, I should be okay.
 
The subject is what I want to avoid. I’m doing a new panel in the 310. When it’s done, I’ll have a G500 TXi (10” with EIS), GI 275, GCU 485 PFD controller, GFC 600 autopilot control head, GTN 750 Xi, GTN 650 Xi, GTX 345 transponder, and GMA 340 audio panel. (And zero dollars.)

The center stack is the blank canvas to work with. I am looking at a couple options for it but I wonder if anyone has opinions or good/bad experiences to help me out.

My first two napkin drawings are:
  1. Line up the tops of the TXi, 750, and 650 and then stack the autopilot below the 750 and the transponder and audio panel below the 650.
  2. Stack the 750 and 650 in the left half and stack the audio panel, transponder, and autopilot control panel to the right.
Placing the PFD controller is a separate mystery. The throttle pedestal where the old autopilot head was will fit, but risks people (mostly me) bumping and breaking the knobs off.

In my RV-14, I have a simpler panel and love it so far. G5 backup instrument on the left, G3X Touch 10” PFD, GTN 650 Xi over autopilot control head in the middle, 10” MFD I rarely look at, and remote everything else.

Save the money and just buy a GTR255 Comm/Nav instead of the 650. Everyone I’ve talked that has a 750/650 combo said the 650 was a waste since they always just use the 750 and use the 650 just as Comm 2.

I have a 650 and GTR225 in my 310. I regret not putting in a 750. I did put in the 350c audio panel and love it.

I’d also put the 345 off to the side out of the way. I never touch mine. It can be controlled through the 750/650. The 350c is also controlled though the 750.

The AP and GCU 85 should go on top of the 500txi on the pilot side. You’ll use those most and want them in front of you. If you don’t have room, then I’d put them on the center stack, left side.

I have a 310Q and waiting for the Garmin STC to hit the Q’s. Glad they got the 310R certified.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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Save the money and just buy a GTR225 instead of the 650. Everyone I’ve talked that has a 750/650 combo said the 650 was a waste since they always just use the 750 and use the 650 just as Comm 2.

I have a 650 and GTR225 in my 310. I regret not putting in a 750. I did put in the 350c audio panel and love it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Makes sense. I would suggest a compromise between a 225 and 650 with a 255 and have nav.
 
No desire to remote mount the audio panel or transponder?
 
I would have audio panel top
AP
Nav comms
Transponder

Or could have the xpdr mounted to the side, it’s not going to get as much use as the other boxes
 
What about a gnc 355 instead of the 650? You get your com 2 and a back up GPS. You loose the second Nav radio which is of marginal value IMHO.
 
What about a gnc 355 instead of the 650? You get your com 2 and a back up GPS. You loose the second Nav radio which is of marginal value IMHO.

If he’s IFR lots of larger airports will still default the ILS
 
What about a gnc 355 instead of the 650? You get your com 2 and a back up GPS. You loose the second Nav radio which is of marginal value IMHO.
Personally, I'd rather have a GNX375/GTR225 combo rather than a GNC355/GTX345 combo. Plus, you can get sub out the GTR-225 for a GNC255 to add back NAV2 (you can't get a ADS-B In/Out transponder with integrated NAV).

@iamtheari I would also think that a GTN750/GNX375/GNC255 combo would get you the same functionality as the GTN750/GTN650/GTX345 combo for a few bucks cheaper, no?
 
Save the money and just buy a GTR255 Comm/Nav instead of the 650. Everyone I’ve talked that has a 750/650 combo said the 650 was a waste since they always just use the 750 and use the 650 just as Comm 2.

No desire to remote mount the audio panel or transponder?

Personally, I'd rather have a GNX375/GTR225 combo rather than a GNC355/GTX345 combo. Plus, you can get sub out the GTR-225 for a GNC255 to add back NAV2 (you can't get a ADS-B In/Out transponder with integrated NAV).

@iamtheari I would also think that a GTN750/GNX375/GNC255 combo would get you the same functionality as the GTN750/GTN650/GTX345 combo for a few bucks cheaper, no?

I've thought long and hard about other radio options as well as remote mounting things. My RV-14 has the GTR 20, GTX 45R, and GMA 245R. I love the panel having less avionics clutter and having the G3X Touch to control all the back-end stuff from one screen.

If there were a GTR 20 equivalent for the TXi system, I would jump on it immediately. But as far as I can tell, the only current Comm radios that the TXi can remote-tune are the GTNs. And being able to do that is a huge workload reduction. Bring up the destination waypoint info on the MFD (TXi or 750), tap the frequency you want, and then tap where you want it to come up. I would go with the 635, but I already have the nav antenna and wiring from the 430W that is coming out of the plane. That's more of a struggle.

In the 310, I really like having physical buttons for PILOT ISO and CREW ISO. I have flown with my sister's whole family: two parents plus three kids age 3, 6, and 9 at the time. They could all visit or soothe the youngest kid while I was talking to ATC, and with just one button push my "co-pilot" could switch between the family conversation and the crew to be my liaison and make sure everyone was doing okay. That's not an issue in the RV-14, so the remote intercom isn't a problem at all.

I already have the GTX 345, otherwise a remote transponder would be on order. But since I already have one, I can't quite push myself into trading it in for a same-functionality remote unit.

That's how I ended up with dual GTN combo. This entire project is an exercise in making the plane safer by reducing the single-pilot workload, so spending "a little" more for a dual GTN setup just to avoid manually tuning ATIS on Comm 2 is okay. It was a struggle, for sure. But I should also get database sync across the entire panel, so there's that as a bonus.

But I am still not quite sure where to put all the stuff. I like putting the PFD controller close to the PFD of course. Above it is fine. In my RV-14, I have the GMC 507 control head and it's below the GTN 650, just above the throttle and flap switch. But I'm sure I can adjust to having the heading and altitude select knobs above the PFD.

Between the 750 on the map page and the 650 on the default nav page, I think I get 11 data fields always on screen. So that's a factor in where I put those two units. I'll probably set the 650 up the same as the one in the RV-14, and then use the 750 to show the data fields that I have on the G3X Touch so both planes have the same information at hand.

I can put the GFC 600 control head above the throttle quadrant so the most important button (the AP button) is handy. I wonder if I can fit the 750, 650, and GFC all in the left column and then just put the audio panel and transponder in the right column. It will look asymmetrical but the audio panel and transponder are the two things a non-pilot right-seater is most likely to be able to help with, and I shouldn't have any trouble reaching the buttons on the audio panel to switch comm radios or hit the ISO buttons. Putting it at the top of the stack makes it easier to find and push a button in turbulence, in my experience.
 
Sitting in the plane to think about this a bit, I think I'm going to stack the GTNs on the left column and the GMA/GTX/GFC on the right. The throttle levers would get in the way of the autopilot control head, and it's an easy reach to at least the all-important AP button if it's in the second column.
 
Audio panels are somewhat thin. Anyway to put that at the top of the GTN750 and 650?
 
Audio panels are somewhat thin. Anyway to put that at the top of the GTN750 and 650?
Maybe. My concern is that that would shift the GTN 650 down and possibly in front of the throttle levers and misalign the top edge of the GTN 750 from the PFD. But maybe it's not a valid concern. With cross-fill, the 650 becomes mostly an auxiliary display from the 750 that I won't have to interact with too often. (Assuming it stays on the default nav page without jumping back to the home menu or the map as they seem wont to do.)
 
The 650 will just be for a second com and will be used often. If it is blocked by the throttles then need to accommodate. But I’m picturing the size of an audio panel and trying to see how that would push something down that far.

BUT - with the 750 I believe you gave the option of driving a remote audio panel that will allow you to keep the 750 and 650 above the throttles .
 
The 650 will just be for a second com and will be used often. If it is blocked by the throttles then need to accommodate. But I’m picturing the size of an audio panel and trying to see how that would push something down that far.

BUT - with the 750 I believe you gave the option of driving a remote audio panel that will allow you to keep the 750 and 650 above the throttles .
I need to go measure things to see where the lower edge of the usable avionics space is, with the throttles all the way forward (where they live most of the time). It looks like I can remote-tune the 650 from the TXi, so as long as the active frequency box is reachable and the data fields are readable I wouldn't have much of an issue in normal operations.
 
But as far as I can tell, the only current Comm radios that the TXi can remote-tune are the GTNs.
That's interesting. I do know the GNC255 can be remote controlled via RS232, but I find it odd if the TXi can't speak its language since I'm pretty sure the G3x can.
 
That's interesting. I do know the GNC255 can be remote controlled via RS232, but I find it odd if the TXi can't speak its language since I'm pretty sure the G3x can.
Out of curiosity, I did a test with the Garmin trainer software on Windows. If you load a GTN and TXi combination, you can remote-tune the GTN from the TXi. If you load a GNC 355 instead of a GTN, the frequency boxes in the waypoint info page on the TXi are just informational, not buttons you can tap to do something with them.

There isn't an option to simulate a GTR 225 or GNC 255. But I've looked at a lot of product literature for the TXi, 225, and 255 and haven't found any reference to remote control from the TXi. The lack of control of the non-GTN GPS navigators seems to confirm that Garmin has not (yet) made it possible to send frequencies from the TXi to anything short of a GTN.

Oddly enough, while the G3X Touch can send VOR/ILS frequencies to the GTN 650 Xi, in the TXi trainer software only comm frequencies are active buttons. The ILS listed in an airport's frequency information and a VOR frequency are both just informational that I would have to dial in manually on the GTN.
 
Oddly enough, while the G3X Touch can send VOR/ILS frequencies to the GTN 650 Xi, in the TXi trainer software only comm frequencies are active buttons. The ILS listed in an airport's frequency information and a VOR frequency are both just informational that I would have to dial in manually on the GTN.
If you load the approach, the GTN puts the ILS/VOR frequency in the Nav standby automagically. All you have to do is flip/flop Nav frequencies.
 
If you load the approach, the GTN puts the ILS/VOR frequency in the Nav standby automagically. All you have to do is flip/flop Nav frequencies.
That’s true but, in lieu of a loaded approach (for example, tuning a VOR or manually tuning the localizer to back up a visual approach), you need to do all the work on the GTN. You can’t (at least in the trainer software) load the waypoint info for a VOR and send the frequency over to the GTN. It’s not going to be much of an inconvenience, it’s just weird since it’s possible on a G3X Touch-GTN combo.
 
More internet stealing for ideas...

View attachment 107750
This one is particularly helpful because he has the prop levers forward. I took a picture in my plane from the pilot seat with the throttles full forward, and then actually flew it a bit, and they shouldn't be in the way of any avionics in the stack. Maybe the bottom right corner of the GTN 650 if it gets pushed that far down, but not if it's just the audio panel, 750, and 650 in the left stack. (The volt/ammeter, selector knob, and alternator failure lights are what you have to reach around the throttle levers to get to.)

That being said, I think that it might be better to have the autopilot control panel on the bottom left. I will be interacting directly with it more often than the 650. While it would be an adjustment in my audio panel muscle memory (mostly pushing COM2 to listen to ATIS and PILOT to stop listening to passengers), I think the best stacks for that arrangement would be: Left: GTN 750, GFC 600; Right: GTN 650, GTX 345, GMA 340. But that's based on keeping the top edges of the two GTNs aligned. Now I'm wondering how it would look to align their bottom edges (and thus their main control knobs) and put the GMA and GTX above the 650.
 
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