Avionics Guys - ADS-B question

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Redneckpilot

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Redneckpilot
I'm not the most avionics savvy guy but I have been trying to calculate how much the ADS-B mandate is going to cost me.
Would appreciate some suggestions on the lesser expensive (aka cheap ) solutions for compliance.

The overwhelming majority of my flying is VFR through Class C and B but I do fly some IFR.

I have a Cessna 182 with the following installed;
2 Narco 12D Nav-Coms
Bendix/King KMD-150 GPS
Narco AT-50 transponder

Not the best stack in the world but it works....
If I understand correctly a WAAS display is required to satisfy the mandate?

I haven't done any shopping but the thought of having to spend $15-20K to upgrade avionics will likely get me out of the game altogether.

A solution where I could utilize my existing equipment would be great.

What do you think?
 
Redneckpilot said:
I'm not the most avionics savvy guy but I have been trying to calculate how much the ADS-B mandate is going to cost me.
Would appreciate some suggestions on the lesser expensive (aka cheap ) solutions for compliance.

The overwhelming majority of my flying is VFR through Class C and B but I do fly some IFR.

I have a Cessna 182 with the following installed;
2 Narco 12D Nav-Coms
Bendix/King KMD-150 GPS
Narco AT-50 transponder

Not the best stack in the world but it works....
If I understand correctly a WAAS display is required to satisfy the mandate?

I haven't done any shopping but the thought of having to spend $15-20K to upgrade avionics will likely get me out of the game altogether.

A solution where I could utilize my existing equipment would be great.

What do you think?
Click to expand...

You should consider one of the UAT ADS-B Out options that include an integrated GPS position source. The lowest cost is probably the NavWorx or FreeFlight unit. Expect to pay $3500 to $5000 installed. All of the rest of the equipment you have would be kept. A WAAS display is not a requirement.
 
(nevermind, i wasn't awake yet)
 
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Garmin has the GDL88. I just installed one w/o WAAS and it was $5700 out the door
 
Do you conduct flight above FL180? Do you conduct flight outside the USA. If yes to either of those, you will need a 1090ES transponder and an approved GPS position source to feed it.

If you stay below FL180 and within the USA, you can use the less expensive and more useful 978mhz UAT. Garmin, FreeFlight, and Navwox make certified UATs. The cost purchasing the UAT and GPS add-on, plus installation, will probably push $6000 - $7000. The garmin GDL88 will only display the free traffic and weather on other garmin devices (GNS, etc). The others have a wifi interface for your tablet apps.

Personally, I would wait to see if the Skyguard portable UAT gets certification. It would be a much more practical option for us little guys. You can permantently temporarily install it yourself with some velcro under the panel or under the seat, put your antennas where you want them, and be done with it. For less than half the cost of a permanently installed system.

John Collins said:
Not sure what you are referring to, but all the ones I mentioned are certified, have an STC, and can be purchased and installed today.
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Ya. I was still asleep I think. I was thinking of the Skyguard,
 
I haven't talked with Don @ SkyGaurd recently. Has anyone heard how the certification mine field is going?
 
This is what Don had to say earlier this year. Sadly the process is that long. This was in March. At the time they were hoping to have a certification in the fall. So hopefully an update will come soon. If the FAA actually certifies this thing, it will be HUGE for us little guys.

About 2 months ago, the FAA told us of some changes they wanted us to make in the ADS-B transmitted message. We did this with some firmware changes and some minor modifications to our hardware. Unfortunately, when any changes are made the FAA requires all testing to be repeated. We are in that phase and should have it completed in a few weeks. Then we must prepare all the reports and documentation again. This will take a month or 2, so we hope by sometime this fall, we will submit our request for TSO certification again. Then it will be up to the FAA to review and respond again. Not sure how long they will take.

Don
SkyGuardTWX​
 
tmyers said:
I haven't talked with Don @ SkyGaurd recently. Has anyone heard how the certification mine field is going?
Click to expand...

There is no way a portable unit can meet the existing mandate requirements in 91.227(b):

b) After January 1, 2020, and unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft below 18,000 feet MSL and in airspace described in paragraph (d) of this section unless the aircraft has equipment installed that--

(1) Meets the requirements in--

(i) TSO-C166b; or

(ii) TSO-C154c, Universal Access Transceiver (UAT) Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast (ADS-B) Equipment Operating on the Frequency of 978 MHz;​
 
Apparently the FAA does not interpret it the way you are interpreting it regarding the word "installed". Because they apparently are indeed working with Skyguard to certify their portable unit.
 
I have seen a compliance report of the Skyguard. It is not pretty. I don't believe the values it is broadcasting for NACp or NIC which indicate the position source is more accurate than my certified WAAS GPS. It does not report pressure altitude. It specifies a SIL and SDA indicating it is certified. It is supposed to set these fields to zero.

When the Skyguard uses the zero for SDA and SIL, it becomes invisible to certified ADS-B In units such as the GDL88. This was pointed out to me by an FAA individual on the ADS-B program and I have since verified it in the TSO details. The reason is that the current GBT treats the unit as a client and does not generate a TISB for the Skyguard so that certified aircraft equipment can see the target. I discussed this issue recently with Excelis, the vendor that the FAA contracted with for the GBT and he said the issue is understood and that a future software update will be implemented to mitigate the issue by processing the zero SIL and SDA. I am not sure if after the software update, the Skyguard will be still treated as a client.
 
Pedals2Paddles said:
Apparently the FAA does not interpret it the way you are interpreting it regarding the word "installed". Because they apparently are indeed working with Skyguard to certify their portable unit.
Click to expand...

The FAA is not considering a portable. If Skyguard submits an installable version, it would be considered.
 
The plan has always been to submit it as a permanently mounted device. If/when it is approved a kit will be sold to those who presently own for Certified installation by an avionics technician. I think the biggest hurdle will be with the plug in GPS puck. I have a hard time seeing it approved without a certified source for the WASS, but I can keep my fingers crossed anyway. If it never gets certified I will turn the transmitter off and use it for my ADS-B in source.
 
Thanks for all the replies....

I looked at the Skyguard website and like the price. Hopefully they can get the certification issues resolved.

I don't fly outside the CONUS or above 18K so the 978 MHz option suits me fine.

I was under the impression that the General Aviation Revitalization Bill passed into law last year would help avionics costs go down since it changes the way parts are certified. Wait and see I guess.....
What am I thinking? The .gov making something simpler?:rofl:
 
Also, L3's website has a product called Lynx. Flying mag says that it will satisfy the mandate and be under $2K! Product announcement is pending but you can go to L3's site sign up for details when they become available.
 
I have heard Garmin has an all-in-one box coming out fairly soon. It will be an installed unit, but less than having to put in a WAAS GPS along with another solution. Not sure about the cost, but I am waiting.
 
somorris said:
I have heard Garmin has an all-in-one box coming out fairly soon. It will be an installed unit, but less than having to put in a WAAS GPS along with another solution. Not sure about the cost, but I am waiting.
Click to expand...

Your information is dated. The GDL88 has been shipping for some time now, pushing two years at this point.
 
Your information is dated. The GDL88 has been shipping for some time now, pushing two years at this point.
Click to expand...

Thanks John. I am easily confused, but my avionics guy told me last week that Garmin was coming out with a new unit in October -- not sure what it is. I am like the OP and not an avionics guru, so hopefully have not steered anyone wrong.
 
coloradobluesky said:
What about the antennas?
Click to expand...
What about them??

Regardless you would need a 978mhz antenna for the UAT. The portable units have them built in, or on the end of a piece of coax you can suction cup to the window. The permanent installs would have the antenna mounted to the belly.

Whatever GPS you use would require an antenna as well. Portable units are built in or with a puck you put on the dash. Permanent ones have a GPS antenna on the roof.
 
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What happens to the current transponder antenna? Will it work for the ADSB? Or does a new one go in its hole and the old antenna thrown away?
 
If you use a 978mhz UAT, it changes nothing with your transponder. You keep it and you keep using it like normal. It is a totally separate system.
 
If you are going to use an old DME antenna, I thought there was a minimum distance between the 1090 and 978 antennas?
 
I don't remember the exact distance apart, but any transponder, DME, and UAT antenna should all be at least 20" away from one another to avoid desensing. If you use an old DME antenna, it should already be far enough way from the xpdr antenna.
 
I just checked out the link posted above and found this iterating tidbit.

"Finally, the report recommends a determination of whether cost savings can be realized for operators if the agency delays payment by users for subscription fees to ADS-B services in locations where users are ADS-B services are not being used. - See more at: http://www.aviationtoday.com/av/topstories/NextGen-Implementation-Prompts-Congressional-Review_83197.html#.VDPXwb42zHi"

This is the first I've heard of a bait and switch where they get GA to install ADSB with the bait being free Nexrad, Graphical TFRs, PIREPs, etc.
 
lolachampcar said:
I just checked out the link posted above and found this iterating tidbit.

"Finally, the report recommends a determination of whether cost savings can be realized for operators if the agency delays payment by users for subscription fees to ADS-B services in locations where users are ADS-B services are not being used. - See more at: http://www.aviationtoday.com/av/topstories/NextGen-Implementation-Prompts-Congressional-Review_83197.html#.VDPXwb42zHi"

This is the first I've heard of a bait and switch where they get GA to install ADSB with the bait being free Nexrad, Graphical TFRs, PIREPs, etc.
Click to expand...

Ok, this warrants additional explanation and doesn't make any sense. There is literally nothing anywhere about future subscription fees for ADS-B.
 
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