Aviation Students Detained for Reading Manuals in Flight

[mikea]

It's official. If you want to learn about aircraft you must be up to no good.

...
A senior government official, speaking on condition of anonymity, told NBC News that a crew member noticed at least one of the men reading “aviation manuals” and notified the pilot of Flight 1874 from Dallas. The pilot then radioed ahead and asked law enforcement officials to meet the flight at Newark airport.

The plane was bound from Dallas Fort Worth International Airport when an air marshal notified authorities of five men he considered suspicious, Marc LaVorgna, a spokesman for the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, told The Associated Press.

Two of the detainees are believed to be of Angolan descent and one may be of Israeli descent, according to a senior government official.

The official also said they may all have been students at a flight school or flight repair school and at least some of them were reading “aviation manuals” of some kind.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/11909506/

 

[mikea]

They were Angolan and Israeli military personel getting helicopter training in the US by the US military.

 

[wbarnhill]

Note to self... leave jepp instrument books at home on next trip...

Ridiculous.

It's going to get to the point that someone on a flight says "I've always wanted to be a pilot" and the air marshall draws on him/her. Hate to think how they'd treat a private pilot who happens to bring up his passion in a conversation on a flight. Sigh.

 

[SkyHog]

Note to self:

Continue as is. Make this a big deal. The TSA can't get away with this crap. We should all follow suit. Make their life miserable.

 

[alaskaflyer]

Note to self:

Continue as is. Make this a big deal. The TSA can't get away with this crap. We should all follow suit. Make their life miserable.

Ummm...I think it was the idiot, paranoid crewmembers that were the problem in this case. Which makes it even more ridiculous.

 

[tom.]

Note to self... leave jepp instrument books at home on next trip...

Ridiculous.

It's going to get to the point that someone on a flight says "I've always wanted to be a pilot" and the air marshall draws on him/her. Hate to think how they'd treat a private pilot who happens to bring up his passion in a conversation on a flight. Sigh.

I've brought it up before, and it usually goes OK. Once I got out charts over a familiar area - my fellow passengers didn't like that, though. I remember thinking, "this is probably not a good idea".

 

[gismo]

Ummm...I think it was the idiot, paranoid crewmembers that were the problem in this case. Which makes it even more ridiculous.

According to the artlcle, it was an onboard air marshal who noticed the "suspicious activity".

 

[Anthony]

I try not to take anything aviation related on commercial airlines. Not worth the hassle and a sad reflection on our current society.

 

[tdager]

Well I travel via commercial air a LOT for work, and I have not had any of these experiences to date.

Hell I almost always introduce myself to the flight attendents as a student pilot and ask if they will see if the pilots will let me into the cockpit before takeoff. So far I am two yes's for two ask's.

Then I pull out my laptop and read the FAA Airplane Flying Handbook, look at charts in PDF format, and a host of other aviation related things.

Again...no issues to date. Of course I am a standard-issue anglo-saxon who, sadlly enough, just does not look all that menacing. LOL

 

[mattaxelrod]

Can I just play devil's advocate here for just a second--don't mean to get flamed, but let's look at it differently for a minute. Hindsight is 20/20, but...

According to reports, you had middle-easternish looking guys, sitting in pairs, but seperately throughout the cabin, communicating to each other through hand signals, and speaking a foreign language that might have sounded like Arabic. I think the "aviation manuals" were peripheral to the whole affair. If a pair of these guys were in 21E& F, and I were in 21D, you can bet this would get my attention.

They were not thrown into Gitmo awaiting trial in 2015, but rather detained by the Air Marshalls, questioned, and let go. Everyone did their jobs. Heavy handed? Yes, perhaps. But a lot more effective to me than frisking old ladies at the security checkpoint.

I remember when I picked up my plane and had to fly commercially to get there, I flew on a one way ticket, with just my backpack that contained sectionals and a GPS. No one gave me a second look. The issue is that these guys fit a profile, and I personally don't have any problem with that.

OK, now I'm in for it...

(p.s. I'm actually going out of town for a few days, so I'll check all the flames when I get back... )

 

[mikea]

The idea we need to get across which we won't be able to do because the public obviously can't get beyond the "If A" part if it requires holding on to two thoughts at once...

If you don't want to allow flight training you will eventually have no one to fly the "real" airplanes.

My own mother asked me after the Bob Collins midair how they could allow a student to fly. Nevermind that it wasn't the student's fault.

The public doesn't get that you don't go from 4 years of book larnin to the cockpit of a 747.

 

[Brian Austin]

The idea we need to get across which we won't be able to do because the public obviously can't get beyond the "If A" part if it requires holding on to two thoughts at once...

If you don't want to allow flight training you will eventually have no one to fly the "real" airplanes.

My own mother asked me after the Bob Collins midair how they could allow a student to fly. Nevermind that it wasn't the student's fault.

The public doesn't get that you don't go from 4 years of book larnin to the cockpit of a 747.

You're ignoring the cultural significance that Matt brought up. From everything I've seen (and I travel commercially a few times a month), people don't have issue with PILOTS so much as groups of foreign people on a plane with apparent pilot knowledge.

Given the circumstances, can you really blame them? If you've been robbed by a black man on a street at night and a few months later, see another black man on a street, wouldn't you be a little more cautious, regardless of the statistical likelihood?

 

[mikea]

You're ignoring the cultural significance that Matt brought up. From everything I've seen (and I travel commercially a few times a month), people don't have issue with PILOTS so much as groups of foreign people on a plane with apparent pilot knowledge.

Given the circumstances, can you really blame them? If you've been robbed by a black man on a street at night and a few months later, see another black man on a street, wouldn't you be a little more cautious, regardless of the statistical likelihood?

OK, so there's a third thought to hold: Should the only commercial pilots in the world be white Americans?

Carry that one more step and we'll say that every military aircraft in the world has to be flown by an American....oh wait.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

They weren't speaking English either. If someone could have just asked them what they were doing (by just starting a conversation) it could have difused the entire situation. Angolians and an Isralie is what the local rag reports. Changing seats, reading flight manuals and making gestures to one another that no one else understood. Some communication would have been great.

Dave

 

[TMetzinger]

I always take my flight gear as carry-on when I ferry airplanes, and since I'm usually on a one-way ticket bought the night before I always get the extra security.

As long as I check the survival equipment and the fuel tester with the screwdriver, I've never had a problem - I get asked what this is for, I tell them I'm a ferry pilot, end of story. Usually one of the crew recognizes the gear as well and asks who I fly for. Sometimes I get a cockpit visit out ot it, sometimes I don't (always on the ground).

I think the reaction to the presence of foreign "teams" on the aircraft was appropriate, and the system worked the way it should.

 

[Brian Austin]

OK, so there's a third thought to hold: Should the only commercial pilots in the world be white Americans?

Carry that one more step and we'll say that every military aircraft in the world has to be flown by an American....oh wait.

I don't see where you're connecting this together here.

From your point of view, we're a few steps closer to requiring any plane to have a white American pilot at its helm.

From my point of view, I see several people acting in a manner that was very similar to published reports of the 9/11 hijackings while discussing flight operations in a foreign tongue.

A prudent course of action would have been as Dave suggested: just ASK them. I think we overreacted in this case but I simply don't see your conclusions out of any of this. It sounds too much like Chicken Little at this point.

 

[flyersfan31]

Now had they been watching hard core porn on laptops, THAT would have been OK...

Maybe, if we hide our Plane & Pilot inside a Playboy, or Sports Illustrated, no one will notice and we won't be detained????

 

[wsuffa]

Now had they been watching hard core porn on laptops, THAT would have been OK...

Maybe, if we hide our Plane & Pilot inside a Playboy, or Sports Illustrated, no one will notice and we won't be detained????

Don't count on it. I remember a recent case where a guy was arrested for watching porn on a TV screen in his car, while the car was being driven down the road.

 

[judypilot]

Don't count on it. I remember a recent case where a guy was arrested for watching porn on a TV screen in his car, while the car was being driven down the road.

Somehow I think that had less to do with the fact that he was watching porn than with the fact that he was watching the TV screen and not the road. He could have been watching Disney films and gotten the same reaction from the cops, I'm sure.

Judy

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I've brought it up before, and it usually goes OK. Once I got out charts over a familiar area - my fellow passengers didn't like that, though. I remember thinking, "this is probably not a good idea".

Really? I always take sectionals with me on airline flights and follow along when possible. It's always good for a conversation starter, and if you end up next to a kid you can point landmarks out to them. Actually, the adults like to know where they are too!

 

[ScottM]

Note to self:

Continue as is. Make this a big deal. The TSA can't get away with this crap. We should all follow suit. Make their life miserable.

On an international flight returning to the US I was stopping off in Florida and was picking up a C182 and then flying over to my sisters house. I had with me my Jepp manuals, charts, etc. Since I was in coach I pulled out my headset and put it on as it is ANR and would help deaden the noise in the cabin. So there I was with my DCs on, doing a Jepp update and planning my flight accross Florida. No one gave me any sh$% except one stewardess who commented that my headset was not allowed in the plane. When I asked he why she said no radio were allowed, I then asked why she thought a headset was a radio and she said because of the antenna. What she thought was an antenna was the mike boom that was put in the vertical position. I explained it to her and she seemed a little more satisfied but I expected more crap once she had seen all the aviation stuff I had spread out. A little later one of the flight officers made a walk through giving me the eye but nothing more came of it. I expect he actually recognized the what I was actually doing.

If these flight crews are going to be responsible for more security they should be better trained instead of having to make knee jerk decisions.

 

[poadeleted20]

I try not to take anything aviation related on commercial airlines. Not worth the hassle and a sad reflection on our current society.

Could be a big problem for me if I fly airlines to go on a PIC trip -- I carry a bunch of instrument training materials, and often review them en route. While I would be polite and cooperative with anyone with a badge and gun who "detains" me, I would be less so with the air carrier that arranged the detention once it was over. Even post-9/11, aviation training materials just cannot be considered "reasonable suspicion" even aboard an airliner.

 

[poadeleted3]

snipOK, now I'm in for it...

snip

Not from me, you aren't. Your post was dead on. We expect "somebody" to provide security, but apparently aren't willing to deal with the expected fall out from that. Some folks, who have no more of a clue when it comes to security than the media does when it comes to aviation reporting, apparently expect air marshals to wave their magic wands to detect who are really bad guys and who aren't.

 

[poadeleted3]

Somehow I think that had less to do with the fact that he was watching porn than with the fact that he was watching the TV screen and not the road. He could have been watching Disney films and gotten the same reaction from the cops, I'm sure.

Judy

If Bill and I are thinking of the same case, the guy wasn't busted for watching TV. He got busted because folks in passing cars complained about the content.

 

[poadeleted3]

Could be a big problem for me if I fly airlines to go on a PIC trip -- I carry a bunch of instrument training materials, and often review them en route. While I would be polite and cooperative with anyone with a badge and gun who "detains" me, I would be less so with the air carrier that arranged the detention once it was over. Even post-9/11, aviation training materials just cannot be considered "reasonable suspicion" even aboard an airliner.

And it does not appear that aviation training materials were the cause, or at least not the sole cause, of the suspicion in this case.

 

[wsuffa]

If Bill and I are thinking of the same case, the guy wasn't busted for watching TV. He got busted because folks in passing cars complained about the content.

That would be the same case I'm thinking of.

 

[wbarnhill]

Some folks, who have no more of a clue when it comes to security than the media does when it comes to aviation reporting, apparently expect air marshals to wave their magic wands to detect who are really bad guys and who aren't.

Actually I expect air marshals to know a little bit more than to think that speaking in a foreign language is reasonable grounds for detention. Because when you boil it down, the language and their skin tone were the only reasons for this incident. Absolutely ridiculous.

 

[wsuffa]

Actually I expect air marshals to know a little bit more than to think that speaking in a foreign language is reasonable grounds for detention. Because when you boil it down, the language and their skin tone were the only reasons for this incident. Absolutely ridiculous.

I cannot speak for the air marshals, but I do know that certain police and security agencies do NOT want front-line folks to think or make judgement calls beyond the alternatives that are discussed in training. A few go so far as to not hire people who score high on intelligence testing just to make sure they will follow orders, not make judgements in the field.

 

[flyersfan31]

A few go so far as to not hire people who score high on intelligence testing just to make sure they will follow orders, not make judgements in the field.

I could make a historical comparison to some jackbooted folks that made some noise back in the 30's and 40's, but I won't...

 

[poadeleted3]

I could make a historical comparison to some jackbooted folks that made some noise back in the 30's and 40's, but I won't...

Good, because there is no accurate comparison.

 

[EdFred]

Actually I expect air marshals to know a little bit more than to think that speaking in a foreign language is reasonable grounds for detention. Because when you boil it down, the language and their skin tone were the only reasons for this incident. Absolutely ridiculous.

You can't be serious. You need to get out in the real world more.

 

[jesse]

If I'm on an airliner...and I have foriegn people in front and behind me speaking in a language I don't understand with aviation charts in their hands...Flashing hand signals at each other.

I don't think I would sit there and not expect something to be done, like, RIGHT NOW.

 

[flyersfan31]

Good, because there is no accurate comparison.

Mayhaps there is, mayhaps there ain't.

You've heard of the "Nuremberg defense" I presume. They were just following orders.

NOW, be clear, I am NOT equating TSA/Homeland Security to Nazi thugs. You can at least see the potential comparison, though, in the earlier post. Don't think, just blindly follow orders...

Still, the whole situation is a very, very gray zone. Someone has an accent -- suspicious or not? My father-in-law had a very thick accent. Greek, but all those Mediterraneans look alike, right? He never broke a law in his life. Tim McVeigh had no accent, served in the military defending our homeland (and Kuwait). He broke several laws.

It would be interesting for our folks (which I'm sure they've done) to compare notes with Israeli security. We can't just willy-nilly investigate people because they wear turbans (note -- they're not Arabs; note -- not all Arabs are terrorists) or talk funny. I think you'll probably agree that what is needed is the Israeli approach, but the American flying public won't put up with that. Still, the Israelis most certainly do NOT hire people who just blindly follow orders. They want their people to think, and I would prefer that here too.

 

[wbarnhill]

If I'm on an airliner...and I have foriegn people in front and behind me speaking in a language I don't understand with aviation charts in their hands...Flashing hand signals at each other.

I don't think I would sit there and not expect something to be done, like, RIGHT NOW.

I don't believe speaking a foreign language and having an interest in aviation is a crime. Feel free to point me to any US Code that says otherwise. Or, we could keep on this "English only" trip people have been on and demand that everyone speak english on our airliners. Would that make you feel safer?

 

[TMetzinger]

You seem to think that being "detained" is a violation of one's rights. It isn't. Being detained means that the law enforcers in question have grounds that they feel are reasonable, and that they feel would survive a judicial review, that requires them to keep a person in custody while they gather enough facts to determine if a crime has been committed or if a threat to public safety exists, or for the person's own protection. And the "detention" is generally limited to a relatively short time, by appropriate statute or procedure.

According to reports, the men in question were taken into custody when they landed (nothing said about handcuffs etc, probably just "will you gentlemen come with me, please"?) and three hours later when their story and credentials checked out, they were sent on their way.

If we had four US military folks behaving the same way on an Israeli flight, I'm quite confident that the Israeli security forces would behave the same way. I'm also sure that as military professionals, the men in question, once they got over their initial emotions, understood what happened and why.

 

[flyersfan31]

Good point -- they were inconvenienced, not arrested. The system worked, and they were on their way. The stupidity is apparent post-facto, but who's to know beforehand? What is suspicious, and what isn't suspicious?

Still, there are detentions and there are DETENTIONS. Having been detained at the East German borders (both the Polish and West German sides) by gentlemen with machine guns and hungry dogs, I'm sensitive to the concept of detention. Of course in those days, a VW microbus with 5 kids in the back and Pennsylvania plates generated a lot of suspicion in that part of the world. But that's a whole 'nother story........

 

[flyingcheesehead]

A little later one of the flight officers made a walk through giving me the eye but nothing more came of it. I expect he actually recognized the what I was actually doing.

Speaking of...

With today's secure cockpit doors... What happens when the first officer (or the captain, doesn't matter which) leaves the flight deck for something like this (or to use the lav) and the captain has a heart attack?

Or do they leave the door open when one of them isn't present, thus compromising security instead?

And just in case you think first-class medicals mean airline crewmembers don't have heart attacks... Listen to Episode 16 of Betty in the Sky With a Suitcase.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Actually I expect air marshals to know a little bit more than to think that speaking in a foreign language is reasonable grounds for detention. Because when you boil it down, the language and their skin tone were the only reasons for this incident. Absolutely ridiculous.

Actually, I'm glad someone knows enough to detain the folks who look suspicious, rather than my grandma.

Let's see, foreign language, flight manuals, skin tone... Where exactly are the clues that this WASN'T the next 9-11? Yeah, a conversation might have helped... Or might have triggered the hijacking. Get on the ground first, sort it out when everyone's safe. A job well done.

 

[ScottM]

Speaking of...

With today's secure cockpit doors... What happens when the first officer (or the captain, doesn't matter which) leaves the flight deck for something like this (or to use the lav) and the captain has a heart attack?

Or do they leave the door open when one of them isn't present, thus compromising security instead?

And just in case you think first-class medicals mean airline crewmembers don't have heart attacks... Listen to Episode 16 of Betty in the Sky With a Suitcase.

On some of the planes I have flown on I have anoticed a keypad near the cockpit door, that keypad I have observed is used to unlock the door when no one is in the cockpit. I would assume it could be used the same way for your hypothesis.

The flight I was tlaking about had a crew of three since it was an international flight from Paris. Soem flights I go on have crews of 4 even due to the their length of time in the air.

 

[tdager]

On the flights I have been on the flight attendents have all put a beverage cart sideways in front of the forward area leading to the cockpit and bathroom. If it is a smaller plane a flight attendent just stands there...yeah she will only slow someone down, but enough to ensure the cockpit door gets closed.

I told one one time that I, and I was sure the other passengers in first class, had her back if someone tried something. She was thankful.