Aviation Ride Sharing

labbadabba

labbadabba

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labbadabba
So, I know FlyteNow and some similar ops got shut down a couple years ago, but I've been thinking about a better way perhaps.

The hang-up with those other operations is that the FAA considered the pilots posting flights for the purposes of splitting expenses to be holding out carriage operations for compensation. This would not only place commercial pilot restrictions on a pilot but may also no longer qualify under Part 91 ops.

So, instead of the pilots holding out for services, what if passengers held out. Let's say, Mr. Doe wants to go to Vegas. Mr. Doe posts the request on a website and pilots can offer to give the guy a ride, proportionally splitting the costs. This way, it's the passenger simply seeking a ride rather than pilots holding out for a fare.

It may be semantic, but the way that I'm reading the FARs, this approach seems to be a better fit within the rules.
 
labbadabba said:
So, instead of the pilots holding out for services, what if passengers held out.
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The rub is the ride among strangers done on a frequent basis. The FAA doesn't want private pilots ferrying strangers around even if the only money exchanged is for half the fuel.

A commercial rating still only allows a pilot to take people no more than 25sm from an airport in their own plane for a fee.
 
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citizen5000 said:
The rub is the ride among strangers done on a frequent basis. The FAA doesn't want private pilots ferrying strangers around even if the only money exchanged is for half the fuel.

A commercial rating still only allows a pilot to take people no more than 25sm from an airport in their own plane for a fee.
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I'm not sure where in the FARs it says anything about transporting strangers vs. friends. If you're flying with someone for a pro rata share and you're not holding yourself out as a service how would that trigger requirements?
 
labbadabba said:
I'm not sure where in the FARs it says anything about transporting strangers vs. friends. If you're flying with someone for a pro rata share and you're not holding yourself out as a service how would that trigger requirements?
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They're going to say no common purpose existed prior to the online post.
 
The common purpose rule is probably the first hurdle. Second, I think the distinction you're talking about IS just semantic and there's not a chance in hell FAA will see that as fitting within the rules. The FAA is going to take a "substance over form" interpretation of the operation and call it what it is: a charter operation. I sure as hell wouldn't risk my certificate for it, as you can be pretty sure that the first person the FAA catches doing this will be made an example of.
 
denverpilot said:
They're going to say no common purpose existed prior to the online post.
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So, by that logic... If I post on Facebook that "I'm flying to Dallas, anyone want to come with? We can go halvsies?" That would be considered illegal due to no common purpose prior to me posting something on Facebook?
 
labbadabba said:
So, by that logic... If I post on Facebook that "I'm flying to Dallas, anyone want to come with? We can go halvsies?" That would be considered illegal due to no common purpose prior to me posting something on Facebook?
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Probably if they wanted to make an issue of it. Welcome to selective enforcement... and who ever said logic was involved? Heh.
 
bradg33 said:
The FAA has specifically addressed Facebook postings before; the answer, of course, is "it depends."

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2011/haberkorn - (2011) legal interpretation.pdf
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Okay, so if I said, "who wants to go to Dallas with me to watch Tony Romo's press conference?" That would be legal since it's a common purpose. But if I offer up, "hey, anyone want to go to Dallas?" That would lack the common purpose and thus may be a violation.
 
labbadabba said:
Okay, so if I said, "who wants to go to Dallas with me to watch Tony Romo's press conference?" That would be legal since it's a common purpose. But if I offer up, "hey, anyone want to go to Dallas?" That would lack the common purpose and thus may be a violation.
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It's, unfortunately, not that simple. The best way to think of it is in terms of the big-picture policy: the FAA does not want private pilot's (or really, anyone without an air carrier certificate) hauling people around for money. This is especially true as it relates to strangers (the "general public"). If you reach out to a small group of family/close friends with your proposal (hey, let's go to Dallas), the FAA likely doesn't care as it doesn't really implicate their policy concerns (nor does it violate the text or spirit of the rules). When you start making broad offers to fly people somewhere in exchange for anything of value, you start crossing the line.
 
Remember that "holding out" is not synonymous with "advertising". The passengers wouldn't be holding out, they'd be actively advertising for someone who is.
 
Bradg33 has pretty much nailed it. Much of what the OP is looking for is not going to be spelled out in regs, but in legal interpretations. The FAA is simply not going to allow private pilots operating under part 91 to fly people for money. Cost sharing is a very limited exception allowed for pilots who have an existing relationship with their passengers (otherwise they'd have to "hold out" to find them). No matter how you slice and dice it, unless you're only flying your friends around, you're probably in violation of the rules. And if by "friend" you mean one of 20,000,000 people you've friended on Facebook, you might still be in violation.
 
bradg33 said:
It's, unfortunately, not that simple. The best way to think of it is in terms of the big-picture policy: the FAA does not want private pilot's (or really, anyone without an air carrier certificate) hauling people around for money. This is especially true as it relates to strangers (the "general public"). If you reach out to a small group of family/close friends with your proposal (hey, let's go to Dallas), the FAA likely doesn't care as it doesn't really implicate their policy concerns (nor does it violate the text or spirit of the rules). When you start making broad offers to fly people somewhere in exchange for anything of value, you start crossing the line.
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Why do you feel the need to risk your certificate to save a little bit of money?
Some of you guys continually re-hash the same old subject of why can't I fly 135 charters with just a private pilots certificate under part 91.
 
champ driver said:
Why do you feel the need to risk your certificate to save a little bit of money?
Some of you guys continually re-hash the same old subject of why can't I fly 135 charters with just a private pilots certificate under part 91.
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Nope, just a daydreamer looking for a different angle.
 
champ driver said:
Why do you feel the need to risk your certificate to save a little bit of money?
Some of you guys continually re-hash the same old subject of why can't I fly 135 charters with just a private pilots certificate under part 91.
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Some people haven't flown with enough bad/scary pilots to realize WHY the FAA doesn't want private pilots (or really anyone not subject to the stringent 121/135 requirements) flying people in exchange for money. Part 91 corporate operations are a unique exception, but those are somewhat tightly controlled by insurance and company policy.
 
bradg33 said:
Some people haven't flown with enough bad/scary pilots to realize WHY the FAA doesn't want private pilots (or really anyone not subject to the stringent 121/135 requirements) flying people in exchange for money. Part 91 corporate operations are a unique exception, but those are somewhat tightly controlled by insurance and company policy.
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Exactly!
 
Even if you could get the FAA to go along, I think the idea is a nonstarter. There aren't that many people interested in flying in one of our airplanes, and I doubt there are all that many pilots who want to take some random stranger with them.
 
Weekend Warrior Charters!! What could go wrong?
 
FormerHangie said:
Even if you could get the FAA to go along, I think the idea is a nonstarter. There aren't that many people interested in flying in one of our airplanes, and I doubt there are all that many pilots who want to take some random stranger with them.
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True dat. Especially when the media reports a "small plane" incident and it turns out to be a corporate jet.

Bob
 
Better question is what would you hope to gain? Have some people you don't know get in your plane, mess it up. spill there drinks and leave crumbs. Non experienced people puking over the first sign of turbulence. Constantly ask you annoying questions like "how fast are we going?"

And you realize this idea has probably been thought up of before. You didn't hit a winning lotto idea.
 
So question....

What if I'm headed somewhere like Wendover for lunch and post on Facebook asking if anyone wants to join me but I don't split the cost?
 
korben88 said:
So question....

What if I'm headed somewhere like Wendover for lunch and post on Facebook asking if anyone wants to join me but I don't split the cost?
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If you pay for the whole flight yourself then there's no issue.
 
TommyG said:
Constantly ask you annoying questions like "how fast are we going?"
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I like getting that question from passengers. If I tell you we're doing 120 kts in a C172 you'll yawn, but if I tell my non-pilot passengers we're doing 140 mph they seem impressed.
 
Bobanna said:
Couldn't one argue that they were advertising for a "common purpose?" Having identified a common purpose, the conversation could then begin about the device (airplane) and cost-sharing, etc. Why anybody would see a reason to do this with a stranger totally escapes me, and I don't even know any strangers!
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One could argue anything one wants. ;)
 
korben88 said:
So question....

What if I'm headed somewhere like Wendover for lunch and post on Facebook asking if anyone wants to join me but I don't split the cost?
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I don't think facebook in itself would necessarily make this questionable. I think it would depend on how you use facebook. Like do you have 100 friends, that you actually know, or are you one of those people with 1000's of 'friends'? I don't get that, but some people do, do they really KNOW most of those people? I doubt it. Do you have strangers in your friend list? I read the link provided by bradg33 above regarding an FAA interpretation of a similar question and it tends to suggest this.
 
exncsurfer said:
I don't think facebook in itself would necessarily make this questionable. I think it would depend on how you use facebook. Like do you have 100 friends, that you actually know, or are you one of those people with 1000's of 'friends'? I don't get that, but some people do, do they really KNOW most of those people? I doubt it. Do you have strangers in your friend list? I read the link provided by bradg33 above regarding an FAA interpretation of a similar question and it tends to suggest this.
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I have plenty of people on my friends list that I don't know.

Hell I have people from POA on there that I've never met in real life.

But I also don't expect any of them to respond.

The people who are local and would be interested in going are all friends and family.
 
TommyG said:
Better question is what would you hope to gain? Have some people you don't know get in your plane, mess it up. spill there drinks and leave crumbs. Non experienced people puking over the first sign of turbulence. Constantly ask you annoying questions like "how fast are we going?"

And you realize this idea has probably been thought up of before. You didn't hit a winning lotto idea.
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Yeah, exactly. And then you get the professional litigators hoping for an easy, big payday because you "scared" them.
 
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