Aviation is closed off to outsiders... and insiders

TangoWhiskey

TangoWhiskey

Touchdown! Greaser!
Joined
Feb 23, 2005
Messages
14,210
Location
Midlothian, TX
Display Name
Display name:
3Green
Seems that way, anyway. That's my observation after a day at Redbird (Dallas Executive).

My daughter and friends attended a Chinese Dance performance at Dallas Fair Park Music Hall today; I drove them down there and whilst they watched the show, I drove over to Redbird to "watch airplanes", listen on my scanner, and read my new book (Greg Brown's Magic Carpet).

Pulled up to the airport, and it's surrounded by barb wire fence with two gates. A service road comes up to the terminal building, nice and new. But the terminal building is locked up tight, even on a weekend.

I drove up to the gate, and called Cutter Aviation (local Piper dealer) on my phone to get them to open the gate. Went up to the building and chatted with them for a bit. I sat there for a couple of hours; four airplanes came in. Tower told a landing 206 that there were three FBOs on field--not one chose Cutter, opting for one of the two Jet Centers.

How do they stay in business? How does GA stay alive?

If you were interested in learning to fly and showed up at that airport, you'd have driven away unsatisfied... other than one small "voting" style sandwich board stuck in the ground advertising flying lessons with a phone number, which I spied while leaving, there was no welcome mat open at the field.

That terminal should be open on the weekends, with people greeting, handing out info, a couple of planes out front giving rides, a static aircraft for the kids and interested people to sit in, a banner out at the street stretched between trees advertising "learn to fly! $25 airplane rides this weekend!".

As Bruce says, we're our own enemy.

Maybe I need to set up a weekend lead-generating, ride-giving operation at my local field (Fort Worth Meacham).
 
Go over to Hudson airport on the southeast side of Dallas sometime. I use to hang out there as a kid during winter and spring when in grade school. I rode over there about 3 years ago on the motorcycle and it was beyond scary. Fences everywhere, the gates were closed and intimidating signs hinting at a one way flight to gitmo. The parking lot looked like a lobster trap to the point I was intimidated to ride into it on the motorcycle. There was a learn to fly here sign at what use to be the old rental office behind the fences. A handful of planes were on the ramp with the tiedown ropes hanging limp. There was absolutely no sign of life or recent activity at all. I wasn't there on a work day either. It was a pleasant weather Saturday afternoon. The last time I was there about 20 years ago, the only risk you faced on a saturday was getting recruited by the local pilots to help get their planes in and out of the hangars all day long.
I'm a pilot that use to fly out of that specific airport some and was intimidated enough that I even I wouldn't get off the motorcycle and go in just to look around..assuming I could get through the gates which probably wasn't likely. Anyone that's interested in learning to fly fly that pulls in there will turn around and go find another hobby.

As a comparison to the intimidation factor; Just 2 miles from where I'm currently setup for winterover is a state prison which is far more open and inviting than that airport was.


IMNSHO, when an airport is more intimidating than a prison, gives every appearance of being completely deserted, no signs of life at all and a pilot who's been around airplanes for 40+ years is intimidated enough to not go in, that airport has slit it's own throat.
 
Yeah and if they do get past security the often chilly reception will finish off the possibility of a new student. It's always been easier for pilots kids, but I'm guessing the next batch of pilots will be overwhelmingly legacy kids, children and nephews/nieces of pilots. Look on the bright side for every thwarted would be pilot a new boat gets sold.:rolleyes:
 
I asked about the terminal being closed; they said "it's only open weekdays". ???????

Oh, and I got past security, too, having Cutter let me in with "I'm a pilot" but they were chilly to me when I got up to the FBO too. I think the line guy who was manning the counter was annoyed that his quiet Saturday afternoon had been disturbed. He'd been collecting $8/hr for doing nothing up to that point.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
Never heard of it. Can't find it on Airnav via search of name "Hudson". ??
Click to expand...

It's been a while, maybe someone bought it or changed the name or something over the years. Maybe it's now under a housing development area.
It was originally Phil L. Hudson airport in Mesquite. It's about 4-5 miles south of the Lake Ray Hubbard dam. Double the distance from the dam to Highway 80 and you're there.


A little pointless trivia: I actually knew Mrs. Hudson. Wonderful lady. They owned the land and built the airport. If you leave the airport grounds via the main entry road and make a left turn on the main road, there is a two story house about 1/10th mile to the West on the south side of the road surrounded by trees. That was their house.


Edit:
Here you go, this is it:
http://www.airnav.com/airport/KHQZ
 
"Hudson" is what is now known as "Mesqute Metro" (HQZ), and it is generally a very friendly field. You may have seen the old tie-down area (where the self-serve fuel is - Troy's been there with me), and there are some sad derelict planes there for sure, but the rest of the field is just fine - inviting and pleasant.
 
Thats really sad to me...I think i decided to become a pilot at around age 3 or 4 AT Redbird watching a jet land and make the ground shake with the thrust revs.My grandfather used to take me there to watch planes..got my first GA airplane ride there and all that later on
 
Not surprised. RBD was more open a couple of years ago (last time I was there), but it was apparent that they were going to "secure" it. Last time I was there on a weekday, the terminal building wasn't open at all.

There are a lot more friendly fields around the metroplex. Even ADS is more friendly, IMHO.

Dallas wanted to make Redbird "more used" - what they did was close it off even more. Compared to ADS, it's not a great 'hood.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
Ah, yeah, been in there once, with Spike, for "cheep-azz-gas" as he puts it. Seemed to be a nice field, if you were flying in! Don't know how it is/was street-side.
Click to expand...

I rode my motorcycle there. I haven't flown in since the early 80's. The aerial picture on airnav makes it look nice though. (Lots of changes since i saw it from the air last)
From the entry road to the parking area, it looked like a prison entrance in 2007.
 
fgcason said:
I rode my motorcycle there. I haven't flown in since the early 80's. The aerial picture on airnav makes it look nice though. (Lots of changes since i saw it from the air last)
From the entry road to the parking area, it looked like a prison entrance in 2007.
Click to expand...

Y'know, I have not arrived at HQZ by land in twenty or more years.

One data point which might be a bad sign - the Rotary Club of Southeast Dallas hosted a fund-raiser at HQZ for several years, Wings & Wheels - had classic planes, classic cars and classic motorcycles, all on the ramp in front of the FBO. the city of Mesquite decided that they did not want to participate any more. Never heard why.
 
I'm starting to wonder if it isn't time for a new breed of private airport. Small, open airports where people can come to watch airplanes take off and land, maybe crunch some numbers with a CFI and take a discovery flight. Put the locks on the hangars, not on the front gate.
 
Jack Spectre said:
I'm starting to wonder if it isn't time for a new breed of private airport. Small, open airports where people can come to watch airplanes take off and land, maybe crunch some numbers with a CFI and take a discovery flight. Put the locks on the hangars, not on the front gate.
Click to expand...

Yup, with a nice long grass strip, little cafe, playground, viewing area, etc.

Sounds like Gastons. Well, except for the hangars part.
 
Jack Spectre said:
I'm starting to wonder if it isn't time for a new breed of private airport. Small, open airports where people can come to watch airplanes take off and land, maybe crunch some numbers with a CFI and take a discovery flight. Put the locks on the hangars, not on the front gate.
Click to expand...

You mean airports like in the old days huh?
Forget locks, nothing says real airport like a hangar without a door.
I never needed to crunch numbers with a CFI to get a ride. All you had to do is sit in the grass near the departure end of the runway with your snack lunch on a busy day and someone would take pity on you.
 
fgcason said:
You mean airports like in the old days huh?
Forget locks, nothing says real airport like a hangar without a door.
I never needed to crunch numbers with a CFI to get a ride. All you had to do is sit in the grass near the departure end of the runway with your snack lunch on a busy day and someone would take pity on you.
Click to expand...

Yeah, if public airports are required to be closed off, then, maybe private airports that are open to the public are the answer.

I don't think tightening security will kill GA, I think GA will squirt out between the fingers of the government fist and find a different way.
 
Jack Spectre said:
Yeah, if public airports are required to be closed off, then, maybe private airports that are open to the public are the answer.

I don't think tightening security will kill GA, I think GA will squirt out between the fingers of the government fist and find a different way.
Click to expand...

I've seen big airports like LGA or JFK in the AFD with rude comments along the lines of "scheduled air carrier operations only from xxxx to yyyy."
GA airports need an equivalent. Something like "air carrier operations not welcome here anytime."

I for one want a piece of land with a grass runway with an old barn for a hangar. It might have a door, probably not. I'm certainly not going to be putting fences up. Security is not much of an issue out in the country for assorted reasons.
 
Jack Spectre said:
Yeah, if public airports are required to be closed off, then, maybe private airports that are open to the public are the answer.

I don't think tightening security will kill GA, I think GA will squirt out between the fingers of the government fist and find a different way.
Click to expand...

It was doing that nicely with fat ultralights, so they went and put a bullet in them with sport pilot.
 
I wish more airports were like Hartford, WI where our glider club is based out of. No fences, friendly people who will talk to you, inexpensive gas provided by the city, and no snooty FBO that scares people off.

Even if I'm not flying my glider I truly enjoy hanging out there, and BSing with the locals. I really miss that when I hop into our club planes in Madison.
 
vontresc said:
I wish more airports were like Hartford, WI where our glider club is based out of. No fences, friendly people who will talk to you, inexpensive gas provided by the city, and no snooty FBO that scares people off.
Click to expand...

I think you hit the nail square on the head -- some airports have a unique culture. just like neighborhoods, schools, and workplaces.

Around here, the difference between KAGC, KFWQ, KVVS, and KWAY are readily apparent to a pilot -- not so much to a newbie that's just "asking around about learning to fly."
 
http://www.tsa.gov/assets/pdf/security_guidelines_for_general_aviation_airports.pdf

It was bad enough that the local FBO has staff that look down on an early 20-something that doesn't look like he makes that much money, but back in 2004/2005 I could still drive right back to the hangars and meet pilots and mechanics that were much more receptive to my presence. I was able to walk around the area and look at the aircraft, wondering who owned them, wishing I could get a ride, and just adding to my desire to fly myself.

Then they went and added a perimeter fence with key code locks. The only reason I knew a code at one time was that I flew down from Greenville to give flights to friends and noticed that there was a note on the gate indicating what the code was. I don't even know if that's changed, but it's just another way of keeping the public out, and how are you supposed to get people interested if you put up so many barriers?
 
fgcason said:
Security is not much of an issue out in the country for assorted reasons.
Click to expand...
I think the problem with "out in the country" is no traffic. I've spent many days waiting around at small town airports. There might not be any security but there isn't much activity either. I've always wondered how these places survive economically.

I'm also trying to remember FBOs where the street side entrance is locked during business hours and the only one I can think of is the BP place at KSTL. I went to KRBD once, about three years ago, and I can only remember it vaguely. I don't remember what FBO we went to but I remember them being friendly, however they sure weren't doing much business.
 
There are a number of those airports around here. The one I'm based out of isn't one of them, but there are plenty where the gates aren't locked (if there are any) and you can go up and enjoy. Of course, they also tend to be in less populated areas, but go to MGJ (Orange County) on a nice Saturday and see what's going on.

That said, I hate going to MGJ on a nice day. It's got too much traffic in the pattern for a non-towered field. But it's exactly the kind of field that's good for GA.

It is hard in large metro areas, but not impossible. To make it happen requires people who will build it. If you build it, they will come. Sadly, not many people have the dedication of the Fredericks to keep an airport open.
 
Jack Spectre said:
I'm starting to wonder if it isn't time for a new breed of private airport. Small, open airports where people can come to watch airplanes take off and land, maybe crunch some numbers with a CFI and take a discovery flight. Put the locks on the hangars, not on the front gate.
Click to expand...

This is a great thread and I would like to add my two cents worth.

Small airports are dissappearing at an alarming rate. The good news is there is a lot of us pilots who know that the future of aviation as 'we' know it needs a shot in the arm. By the posting on here we all know what feeds the need.

1- Small town airports where local families can come down with the kids on a Sat/Sun and watch the planes, picnic and smell, feel and experience the wonders of flight.

2- The kind of airport where neighbors feel free to stop by to chat about every day life, and in those rare cases sometimes when they will need a favor. Farmers that need a look down at their crops or their dog/horse/cattle got loose and a quick loop flying around the area almost always ends up with a very happy human and critter at the end of the day..

3- The local sheriff knows he/she can stop in in case they need a aerial view of something that will help them. Missing kid, washed out roads, etc.

I personally have bought a chunk of land here in Wyoming to create that "small airport". It takes hard work and a vision but I WILL pull it off. I petitioned the county, got a conditional use permit. Applied with the FAA for an airspace study, jumped through all the hoops and was granted their blessings for Haas International" <G> They issued an identifier ID, 2WY.

As a side note, in my opinion another way in trying to keep existing small town FBO's open is to try to spend some dollars with them. If you are flying around the local area or on a cross country pick an airport that has an attended small FBO instead of those self service only fields. You will spend a few cents more per gallon but I have never seen a self serve field offer hangar space at the last minute to hide the plane from an approaching storm or a crew car or even be able to loan you a wrench, screwdriver or hammer:yikes: to fix those little 'issues' that will pop up from time to time. On my trip to Oshkosh last year I purposely chose my fuel stops and overnight stops at just those kinds of small airports... Great people, good service and memories that will last the rest of my life.

Tailwinds fellow pilots.

Ben Haas
www.haaspowerair.com
2WY3
 
Last edited:
fgcason said:
I've seen big airports like LGA or JFK in the AFD with rude comments along the lines of "scheduled air carrier operations only from xxxx to yyyy."
GA airports need an equivalent. Something like "air carrier operations not welcome here anytime."
Click to expand...

It's not the air carrier ops you should shun, what you ought to go for is "TSA not welcome here".
 
N801BH said:
I personally have bought a chunk of land here in Wyoming to create that "small airport". It takes hard work and a vision but I WILL pull it off. I petitioned the county, got a conditional use permit. Applied with the FAA for an airspace study, jumped through all the hoops and was granted their blessings for Haas International" <G> They issued an identifier ID, 2WY.
Click to expand...
That's cool. I've been to Pinedale many times.
 
N801BH said:
I personally have bought a chunk of land here in Wyoming to create that "small airport". It takes hard work and a vision but I WILL pull it off. I petitioned the county, got a conditional use permit. Applied with the FAA for an airspace study, jumped through all the hoops and was granted their blessings for Haas International" <G> They issued an identifier ID, 2WY.
Click to expand...

The problem is that the places where you can buy 'a chunk of land' and actually get a use permit tend to be away from where the population is. The small airports close to cities are the most threatened.
 
weilke said:
The problem is that the places where you can buy 'a chunk of land' and actually get a use permit tend to be away from where the population is. The small airports close to cities are the most threatened.
Click to expand...

If I were rich that is exactly what I would have done....:yesnod:


But,, I am a pilot... So much for being rich.:rofl::rofl::nonod:
 
N801BH said:
If I were rich that is exactly what I would have done....:yesnod:
Click to expand...

At this point, your field is a bit stealthy. Airnav doesn't list it and your website doesn't give up where you are located.
 
N801BH said:
I personally have bought a chunk of land here in Wyoming to create that "small airport". It takes hard work and a vision but I WILL pull it off. I petitioned the county, got a conditional use permit. Applied with the FAA for an airspace study, jumped through all the hoops and was grant
2WY3
Click to expand...

Very cool, Ben. That's a dream I have, too.

How hard were the "hoops"? Did you do it on your own or with some professional assistance?
 
Hey Ben, here's an idea... why not put up a "How to" page that details the process of how you got the FAA approval? I, for one, would have absolutely no clue how to do it, but might be more inclined to if I had a resource that went through the details.
 
gismo said:
It's not the air carrier ops you should shun, what you ought to go for is "TSA not welcome here".
Click to expand...

Exactly. My home field back in Texas, KTYR, used to have this awesome little restaurant right in the middle of the main terminal. On nice warm days, my dad would take my sisters and I there for Sunday breakfast.

Looking out of the window directly to the left was where the carriers would pull up to. Further around to the left was Tyler Jet and storage for larger planes. The best part was to the right though, where all of the smaller GA planes would tie down. You could walk directly out of the restaurant and go interact with plane & pilot. There was a gate, but it was mainly in place to hang prop warning signs, not deter people from taking a closer look at the aircraft.

It really was a great FBO that was very active and entertaining.

Now, the old terminal is a museum and a new one was built FAR away for the carriers. General aviation restaurants aren't allowed because of TSA, the main terminal has safety measures in place that would rival DFW, and the general feel is not pleasant. Of course, when your family owns a plane, you are allowed on the ramp and it is still a great atmosphere. But, onlookers and aviation enthusiasts are separated from the action.

Hopefully there is a solution out there to this obvious problem. I, for one, would love to have another Sunday morning breakfast at a lively FBO.
 
sanforce said:
Hopefully there is a solution out there to this obvious problem. I, for one, would love to have another Sunday morning breakfast at a lively FBO.
Click to expand...

As would I. TYR used to be a great field (I used to have my annuals done there by Richard Blundell).

Unfortunately, TSA would as soon have GA go away, and anything that helps that process along is a good thing. :rolleyes:
 
weilke said:
Well, your original post gave the identifier as '2WY' only, and that one didn't do anything.
Click to expand...


Oops.. Sorry guys.. I am gonna blame it on being a Monday.:yesnod:

Thats my story and I am stickin with it.:rofl::rofl:
 
Hmm.... 3000 ft runway at almost 8000 MSL. I don't think my Aztec will make it out. Maybe in, but definitely not out. Unless I fly off a cliff and take off that way like aircraft carriers. :D
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Hmm.... 3000 ft runway at almost 8000 MSL. I don't think my Aztec will make it out. Maybe in, but definitely not out. Unless I fly off a cliff and take off that way like aircraft carriers. :D
Click to expand...


Yeah.. I was thinking of calling it the "roach motel" Like the commercial of old used to say....

You can check in but you can't check out " ... <GG>
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Hmm.... 3000 ft runway at almost 8000 MSL. I don't think my Aztec will make it out. Maybe in, but definitely not out.
Click to expand...

Oh, you'll be fine. If you loose a couple of pounds and take off with 5 gal in each main.

(isn't the Aztruck one of the better short-field twins ?)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top