Aviation in the bay area

ArrowFlyer86

ArrowFlyer86

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The Little Arrow That Could
I have a career opportunity that may take me out to SF for a year or two. Relo'ing out there isn't a done deal, but it's certainly looking more likely.

Naturally since my life priorities are in the appropriate order the first thing that comes to mind is how that impacts flying :)

I'm curious, what's the GA atmosphere like out there? Are there popular airports out there to keep GA planes at, or ones to avoid that are a headache? I'm guessing like most places there is a shortage of hangar space with year+ waiting lists?
Of course weather is more mild there than out here in the midwest, so I'm wondering if ramp parking isn't as much of a big deal?
 
No shortage of GA friendly airports out here. I did my PPL at Napa County airport (KAPC) and fly to a lot of the Bay Area airports. There is Palo Alto, Half Moon Bay, Concord Buchanan, Petaluma and a few others not far from The City. I've owned two Arrows, and parked them on the ramp. Obviously a hangar is better but they are $$$ here and space is limited.

Housing costs in San Francisco proper are sky high, so most people that haven't owned a house there since the 1950's commute from places like Vallejo or even Fairfield.
 
The Bay Area is pretty big. Flying from one end to the other definitely counts as a cross country flight. I don't think that you want to live in San Jose and fly out of Napa or vice versa. What general area are you looking at?
 
pdonahue said:
The Bay Area is pretty big. Flying from one end to the other definitely counts as a cross country flight. I don't think that you want to live in San Jose and fly out of Napa or vice versa. What general area are you looking at?
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Not sure where I'd be living, yet.
Work would be in financial district downtown.
 
In '90 two friends got their PPL in the San Ramon area so GA was alive and well at least then! :) Seriously, I worked in San Ramon for one year right after the earthquake. My company tried really hard to get me to relocate, but, all my roots were on the east coast. I sometimes wonder where I'd be in life now had I stayed. Oh well. Best of luck to you!
 
Hangar??? :rofl:

I haven't been based out there, but based on what I've seen from visiting my brother out there via GA, there are far more tie-downs than hangars. And those tie-downs probably cost more than your hangar does now.

Storage is expensive. Fuel is expensive. The airports that remain are super crowded.

I do remember that a long time ago there was an article about a pilot who had a Cardinal, lived in the central valley, and flew to work. He had people he'd take with him to split costs, and the cost of housing was so much cheaper that the flights were pretty much paid for by the difference.

Be sure that you're getting a salary that actually makes sense too. Cost of living is stoooooooooooopid out there, so a very attractive salary may end up with less in your pocket. I'd be looking for at least 50% higher pay to go there, at a minimum.
 
I second everything that's been said. Definitely look into your salary:housing cost ratio. It's super, super expensive AND there's a housing shortage. And don't bring your airplane until you have a commitment for a tie-down space. If you're going to be working right in San Francisco, and you can't afford to live there (or can't find housing), you're either going to be taking BART (Bay Area Rapid Transit) from the Peninsula (to the south) or from the East Bay (driving into the city and parking can be a nightmare). If you can find a place to live on the Peninsula, try to get space at San Carlos (KSQL), "try" being the operative word. If the East Bay, your best bet might be Hayward Exec (KHWD), or Concord (KCCR) or Livermore (KLVK). I don't know anything about KHWD or KCCR; I have flown into KLVK and it doesn't seem nearly as crowded as KSQL. KPAO is farther south, but is a nightmare--I doubt you'd find a space there. Hayward and Concord are both on the BART line, San Carlos is not (BART stops well north of San Carlos, but it's not a long drive from there to KSQL). There are other GA airports farther out; if you don't mind driving long distances to fly, you might find places there. I wouldn't recommend Half Moon Bay (KHAF) because of the fog, unless you're IFR capable. The fog is often local, so if you can get in and out, that might be OK (it also is sometimes only a problem for part of the day). Getting to/from KHAF can be a pain, though. Only two ways in and both have a ton of traffic on the weekends.

I've ignored the GA airports in the North Bay (O69, 0Q3, 0Q9, 2O3, KSTS, KAPC) because unless you have no choice, you probably do not want to be commuting across the Golden Gate Bridge. There are buses, but not a lot, and from Santa Rosa, it takes 2 hours.

In summary, good luck finding housing and a tie-down. Seriously, if the commitment is really only a year, I'd recommend leaving your airplane at home and renting for the time being. Actually, unless the opportunity will launch your career into the stratosphere, I'd avoid it entirely. If they provide housing and parking in the city, that's a whole other ballgame, and then all you have to decide is how far you're willing to drive to your airplane.

Full disclosure: I grew up in the Bay Area and, until recently, spent a lot of time there (family). Wild horses could not drag me back there. It's crowded and crazy, but I have to point out that I've been living in rural areas since 1996, and I'm allergic to cities (I also lived in Chicago for awhile). If you are a city person (despite living in the suburbs), none of this will strike you as horrific as it does me.
 
The North Bay isn't necessarily a total no-go. There are ferries that run between V-town, Sausalito and the SF wharf. One of my coworkers in American Canyon lived in the City and commuted to work via the ferry to Vallejo. Obviously you're constrained by the ferry schedule and it's not a lightning fast way to travel, but it can work.

Coming out of school, I applied for a state job for the PUC which was located on Van Ness avenue. Thinking back on it, I probably wouldn't have accepted the job if it was offered to me. The pay wasn't nearly worth it.

Usually when I have a morning meeting in the Bay Area, I make the commute at zero dark thirty in the morning when traffic is light, and work out at a nearby 24 Hour Fitness until meeting time. 9 am meetings don't work - you're still leaving at 4:30 if you have to cross the Bay Bridge.
 
judypilot said:
I second everything that's been said. Definitely look into your salary:housing cost ratio. It's super, super expensive AND there's a housing shortage. And don't bring your airplane until you have a commitment for a tie-down space. If you're going to be working right in San Francisco, and you can't afford to live there (or can't find housing), you're either going to be taking BART (Bay Area Rapid Transit) from the Peninsula (to the south) or from the East Bay (driving into the city and parking can be a nightmare). If you can find a place to live on the Peninsula, try to get space at San Carlos (KSQL), "try" being the operative word. If the East Bay, your best bet might be Hayward Exec (KHWD), or Concord (KCCR) or Livermore (KLVK). I don't know anything about KHWD or KCCR; I have flown into KLVK and it doesn't seem nearly as crowded as KSQL. KPAO is farther south, but is a nightmare--I doubt you'd find a space there. Hayward and Concord are both on the BART line, San Carlos is not (BART stops well north of San Carlos, but it's not a long drive from there to KSQL). There are other GA airports farther out; if you don't mind driving long distances to fly, you might find places there. I wouldn't recommend Half Moon Bay (KHAF) because of the fog, unless you're IFR capable. The fog is often local, so if you can get in and out, that might be OK (it also is sometimes only a problem for part of the day). Getting to/from KHAF can be a pain, though. Only two ways in and both have a ton of traffic on the weekends.

I've ignored the GA airports in the North Bay (O69, 0Q3, 0Q9, 2O3, KSTS, KAPC) because unless you have no choice, you probably do not want to be commuting across the Golden Gate Bridge. There are buses, but not a lot, and from Santa Rosa, it takes 2 hours.

In summary, good luck finding housing and a tie-down. Seriously, if the commitment is really only a year, I'd recommend leaving your airplane at home and renting for the time being. Actually, unless the opportunity will launch your career into the stratosphere, I'd avoid it entirely. If they provide housing and parking in the city, that's a whole other ballgame, and then all you have to decide is how far you're willing to drive to your airplane.

Full disclosure: I grew up in the Bay Area and, until recently, spent a lot of time there (family). Wild horses could not drag me back there. It's crowded and crazy, but I have to point out that I've been living in rural areas since 1996, and I'm allergic to cities (I also lived in Chicago for awhile). If you are a city person (despite living in the suburbs), none of this will strike you as horrific as it does me.
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Thanks for the advice :)!

I've been visiting SF for work/friends for 17 years now, and have generally enjoyed my time there (certainly would prefer to visit SF any day of the week over NYC, which I've also visited probably 50x). It's absolutely not my first choice place to live, but for the right career opportunity it could make sense for a limited time.

I'm familiar with SF prices, which are the most ridiculous of any housing costs I've seen anywhere (maybe a handful of neighborhoods in London would compete). The role would compensate fairly, though I'd still be a net loser compared to midwest living unless the company (a small start-up by people I used to work with in trading) hit a homerun. The risk on that is just something I have to accept as inherent to the career choice.

Having lived downtown Chicago recently for over a decade (only having gone to suburbia in the last few yrs), I'm pretty familiar with city living. And I think Chicago is a heck of a lot busier than SF, so I think that part I can deal with OK. That is despite SF's rather robust hobo crowd (Chicago has its own problems of course, but SF's are... unique).

Re: airports. Thanks for that. Gives me some more stuff to consider.
After googling around last night part of me really does think the best decision would be to leave the Arrow behind or sell it and join a club for the time I'm there. It is a near certainty that I would not stay in that area for more than 3 years (hard max). While I would very much like to have a place out west -- I would prefer it to be quite a bit further from people (MT/ID). And certainly further from the flashy, astronomically priced, non-sensical real estate markets.
 
ArrowFlyer86 said:
Re: airports. Thanks for that. Gives me some more stuff to consider.
After googling around last night part of me really does think the best decision would be to leave the Arrow behind or sell it and join a club for the time I'm there. It is a near certainty that I would not stay in that area for more than 3 years (hard max).
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I will be the outlier here. I lived in Dogpatch, downtown Oakland, and San Jose from 2016 to 2021. Dogpatch was too brief to be remarkable, San Jose was a place to live, and we still miss much about Oakland. I left my airplane behind when I moved to the Bay area but brought it up when I found a place to keep it. Back then it was possible to find hangars if you were willing to travel a bit. I found move-in ready space at Oakland, San Martin, and Byron just by networking and making a few phone calls. The OAK hangar was a ****hole but only 10 mins from home, E16 was very nice and on my way to/from work, but super expensive; and I didn't take the one in Byron because I found the one in San Martin. Manage your expectations but don't rule out the possibility of finding space - if you're willing to pay/drive for it.

Nauga,
back to nowhere
 
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What’s the going rate for a hangar in the area?
 
I always enjoyed visiting SF (and NYC for that matter), but could never afford to live in the places I enjoyed visiting. I had a job opportunity to choose between NYC and SF a few years ago (I think I have a similar post on here from then?), and decided to walk through door C which was to stay in Chicago area. But the palatable options for SF were to commute from Livermore, Concord, or Vacaville and the options on the NYC side was Princeton or Newburgh.

Good luck in your decision. If you decide to keep the plane in the already reserved and paid for hangar here, I'm happy to take goooooood care for it. Did you know I run a plane-taking-care-of service? It's like dog walkers but for planes. I take care of your plane for a nominal fee and your precious plane gets the care, attention, and MOST importantly exercise it needs! yes I promise to run at 65% power :)
 
dans2992 said:
What’s the going rate for a hangar in the area?
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5+ years ago I paid $350/mo for the OAK ****hole and more than double that for a large end tee with an extension at E16.
ETA: At E16 the benefit of not having to deal with the Oakland port authority was worth just as much as the extra space and amenities. :mad2:

@schmookeeg probably has more current gouge.

Nauga,
and the first rule of ****holes
 
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kaiser said:
I always enjoyed visiting SF (and NYC for that matter), but could never afford to live in the places I enjoyed visiting. I had a job opportunity to choose between NYC and SF a few years ago (I think I have a similar post on here from then?), and decided to walk through door C which was to stay in Chicago area. But the palatable options for SF were to commute from Livermore, Concord, or Vacaville and the options on the NYC side was Princeton or Newburgh.

Good luck in your decision. If you decide to keep the plane in the already reserved and paid for hangar here, I'm happy to take goooooood care for it. Did you know I run a plane-taking-care-of service? It's like dog walkers but for planes. I take care of your plane for a nominal fee and your precious plane gets the care, attention, and MOST importantly exercise it needs! yes I promise to run at 65% power :)
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65% power in cruise, perfect!
Can I get you to also promise no hard landings? Or is that part of the Kaiser AirCare Plus+ plan that costs extra?
 
nauga said:
5+ years ago I paid $350/mo for the OAK ****hole and more than double that for a large end tee with an extension at E16.
ETA: The benefit of not having to deal with the Oakland port authority at E16 was worth just as much as the extra space and amenities. :mad2:

@schmookeeg probably has more current gouge.

Nauga,
and the first rule of ****holes
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OAK North field, we are still "fleas on the dog" and the port is still as absurd and disinterested in us as ever.

I'm at the port-a-ports, though, my first condo hangar, so my rent is comparatively cheap for a very large (52' wide) hangar. $327/mo ground rent. I had to buy the box from the last owner though. I think this size hangar would be ~$1k/mo elsewhere. I spent a lot of time patching it up. I had to install a solar/battery/inverter setup to get lights and outlets. It's my own personal little prepper shack and it's fun for me. If I was renting I'd be furious at the situation.

The hangars that the port rents out are sad, flooded, soggy disasters in a state of utter neglect, bordering on "crumbling edifices we imported from Pripyat on the cheap"

I liked being based at Hayward better. I am on some sort of blacklist at Concord. After I ended my tiedown agreement there (to reloc to HWD) I asked if I could keep my gate card since I do Bonanza/Baron instruction with some of their tenants, and apparently I was supposed to register and pay a secret $25 friendship/permission fee -- something I still can't find anywhere in their bylaws. They were jerks about it all.

I actually like being based at the class C. It confers low wait times and high service. The gas prices are still eye-watering though. I think we're at $8. It took me 18 months to get on the "tenant" list to get waived from a $50 or $70 "landing fee" that the FBOs were required to collect to sell me gas. Double laugh on them, I just tankered in from elsewhere.

$0.02 with no particular rhyme. :)
 
I’m sure you’ve already compared cost of living and found it’s not that much different than Chicago. I live in San Jose and previously lived in Chicago (Damen and waveland, go cubs). GA is alive and well in Bay Area. Great places to day trip or overnight along the coast. Then there is mountain flying, which is great. Since you’ve been visiting regularly you know there are very different areas of the Bay Area, I found the differences to be greater than differences in Chicago. I would suggest thinking about other interests when looking for place to live. Caltrain runs from South Bay to SF and is better commute option than the L, in my opinion. For instance are you a beach person, skier, mountain biker, into music, wine enthusiast, like hiking, or want to play beer png till 2am, etc, all of those are easy access on the weekends but, after work depends on where you live.

Another thing people don’t always account for is the weather can have an impact on how big of place you need. For instance, 9 months of the year we spend more time on our patio than our living room. In Chicago, due weather, I needed more indoor space.

The biggest issue is everyone who doesn’t live here hates California and they feel the need to tell you every chance they get.
 
NoBShere said:
The biggest issue is everyone who doesn’t live here hates California and they feel the need to tell you every chance they get.
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I lived in Santa Cruz for 38 years, now in Florida for the last seven years. In all my travels, and in internet conversations, I have found that the overwhelming majority of people who hate California and are quick to expound on its ills have never lived there. Most haven’t even visited.
 
ArrowFlyer86 said:
After googling around last night part of me really does think the best decision would be to leave the Arrow behind or sell it and join a club for the time I'm there. It is a near certainty that I would not stay in that area for more than 3 years (hard max).
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Not a bad idea.

One nice thing about the Bay Area is the West Valley Flying Club. They have a massive fleet (59 airplanes right now), with lots of planes (22) for advanced pilots in addition to a handful of Citabrias that you could use for tailwheel and aerobatic training. It would give you a chance to try out some new types and then once you leave CA you'd have, shall we say, an "upgrade opportunity".
 
I commuted into the financial district for years from Petaluma. I had a spot in a fairly new T-hangar at O69 for about $500 a month. I usually took the Golden Gate Transit bus in, but sometimes took the ferry from Larkspur in Marin.
 
No shortage of GA friendly airports out here. I did my PPL at Napa County airport (KAPC) and fly to a lot of the Bay Area airports. There is Palo Alto, Half Moon Bay, Concord Buchanan, Petaluma and a few others not far from The City. I've owned two Arrows, and parked them on the ramp. Obviously a hangar is better but they are $$$ here and space is limited.

Housing costs in San Francisco proper are sky high, so most people that haven't owned a house there since the 1950's commute from places like Vallejo or even Fairfield.
 
dans2992 said:
What do hangars run that are for sale?
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I see the smallest port-a-ports for sale at OAK every once and awhile around 25K. The main issue with them is the 13' tailspan (they don't fully "mesh" with their aft neighbors, there is a large rectangular gap -- I assume for highway transport as a "single wide"). V-tail Bonanzas can fit nicely. Debs less so. Smaller planes do fine in them. I don't know what their land lease is, I assume somewhere in the low-mid $200s/mo.
 
dans2992 said:
What do hangars run that are for sale?
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There are generally few private hangars for sale as the general practice in California is for any hangars built to revert to the aircraft owner after a period of time. The ones that are privately owned and generally much older hangars that were privately owned without the rider in the original ground lease that triggered the reversion.
 
Around Phoenix and Salt Lake areas, hangars (with 30+ years on the ground lease) remaining, are running around $300-$400k.

I assumed CA hangars would be much worse.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Not a bad idea.

One nice thing about the Bay Area is the West Valley Flying Club. They have a massive fleet (59 airplanes right now), with lots of planes (22) for advanced pilots in addition to a handful of Citabrias that you could use for tailwheel and aerobatic training. It would give you a chance to try out some new types and then once you leave CA you'd have, shall we say, an "upgrade opportunity".
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I've never heard of such a massive flying club. That's nuts.
I'm not loving the fact they consider a 182 and a Dakota an "advanced" aircraft though...
 
ArrowFlyer86 said:
I've never heard of such a massive flying club. That's nuts.
I'm not loving the fact they consider a 182 and a Dakota an "advanced" aircraft though...
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WVFC is cool. Plus One in San Diego is cooler. I'm sort of amazed all of the large metros don't have something like these.
 
ArrowFlyer86 said:
PoA really needs to introduce the "vomit" emoji reaction. Those prices are intense...
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I’m talking about heated/air conditioned hangars with power, water, etc. that fit something with a 43-foot wingspan - a bit better than a city T-hangar, but not “corporate hangar” grade.

Also, that’s pretty much what they’re costing to build once you consider all the permit issues like firewalls, etc.
 
dans2992 said:
I’m talking about heated/air conditioned hangars with power, water, etc. that fit something with a 43-foot wingspan - a bit better than a city T-hangar, but not “corporate hangar” grade.

Also, that’s pretty much what they’re costing to build once you consider all the permit issues like firewalls, etc.
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Whatever happened to being able to slap up a few walls and some corrugated aluminum roofing and calling it a day?

That's crazy though. I would have thought 1/3 the price of construction, on the high end.

Edit: power/water/climate control too, yeah I get it.
 
ArrowFlyer86 said:
Whatever happened to being able to slap up a few walls and some corrugated aluminum roofing and calling it a day?
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Oakland has an impressive pile of that too, just not at the airport :/ Some of the favelas here are ... architecturally impressive. I think we'll rival the former Kowloon walled city if we continue at this pace. :D
 
schmookeeg said:
Oakland has an impressive pile of that too, just not at the airport :/ Some of the favelas here are ... architecturally impressive. I think we'll rival the former Kowloon walled city if we continue at this pace. :D
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Saw them for the first time a couple of weeks ago.
 
schmookeeg said:
The main issue with them is the 13' tailspan (they don't fully "mesh" with their aft neighbors, there is a large rectangular gap -- I assume for highway transport as a "single wide").
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That's the private bathroom.

Nauga,
and his corrosion problem
 
ArrowFlyer86 said:
I've never heard of such a massive flying club. That's nuts.
I'm not loving the fact they consider a 182 and a Dakota an "advanced" aircraft though...
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What difference does it make what they call it? I never had any trouble getting a checkout in one. The prices are primarily set according to each owner's expenses.
 
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