"authorized" instructor overseas?

[kath]

Hi, all,

Here is a question from a friend of mine. He had a pilot's license in Switzerland once (long since expired), and rather than trying to transfer the license he is starting fresh on a U.S. PPL. He's already a good pilot, with lots of hours logged in Switzerland. His words:

The FAR 61.109 states that for a PP license you need at least 20 hours of flight training from an *authorized* instructor. And apparently authorized really means authorized in the US... My flight instrtructor offered me that, once he thinks I reached
proficiency, he will come along for a few fun cross-country flights without instructor charge, but I still would like to have a second opinnion. Do you mind asking one of the senior flight instructors on Merrill Field about whether they think this is indeed correct meaning of "authorized"?

So whaddaya think folks? Can dual time with an instructor overseas count towards the required dual for a U.S. PPL?

--Kath

 

[wesleyj]

None of his overseas time will count for anything, unless he obtains a PPL based upon his License from Switzerland.

FAA is quite specific, if his foreign license is expired, then he will have to meet all of the requirement for a PPL under part 61.

Sorry

 

[poadeleted20]

If the instructor from whom he received the training had an FAA CFI (quite a few overseas instructors have one), and the instructor endorsed the entries with that certificate number, the time counts as training time towards a US PPL. If not, it doesn't.

 

[kath]

FAA is quite specific, if his foreign license is expired, then he will have to meet all of the requirement for a PPL under part 61.

Agreed that he needs to meet all the requirements for a PPL "from scratch"... things like checkrides and written tests taken overseas count for nothing. But surely the flight hours count? Solo time for instance. When the FAR's talk about stuff like "minimum of xx hours of solo flight time in airplanes" and it doesn't say that this has to be in the U.S. Just in an airplane. Hours are hours. No?

--Kath

 

[wesleyj]

Once his foreign cert expired, the hours no longer exist, unless they were done in this country, he made his mistake in letting his foreign cert expire.

If his CFI in switzerland, happened to be FAA certified and was working under an FAA management program in an ICAO country, then the dual hours could be counted, otherwise none, nada, zip of his previous hours can be used.

Went through a similat situation with a fellow from Switzerland that bought a company from us a few years back, he went back to Switzerland, renewed his cert, came back here and turned it in for one of ours. Took less time and cost less that what it would have to make the feds happy.

It makes no sense to me, but that was the way Mr, Lynch at the FAA splained it to us then.

 

[poadeleted20]

While the FAA can say the dual hours don't count unless they were flown with an FAA-certificated flight instructor, PIC time is PIC time is PIC time -- 14 CFR 61.51 doesn't limit the time to US-registered aircraft. I don't see how the FAA can refuse to count solo or other post-PPL PIC time towards FAA certificates/ratings.

 

[Areeda]

I have a student in the same situation. Expired Swiss license wanting to get a US PPL. I got the same info from Capn Ron over at AOPA and verified it with the LA FSDO.

If your friend is like my student he will have little or no night flight and instrument flight experience. All the solo requirements are complete.

After TSA vetting he will need 20 hrs of dual containing:

• 3 hrs dual cross country
• 3 hrs night including 10 take offs and landings and night cross country
• 3 hrs of flight by reference to instruments (hood work)

Note things can be combined but I don't see much reason to work hard to do it.

Then we plan to go over every maneuver in the PTS (about 3 hrs), work on anything that needs it.

After that I see a few good cross countries so he knows the airports with good restaurants in SoCal.

I'm still trying to figure out what 61.41 means in this situation besides another call to the FSDO on Monday.

§ 61.41 Flight training received from flight instructors not certificated by the FAA.

top
(a) A person may credit flight training toward the requirements of a pilot certificate or rating issued under this part, if that person received the training from:
(1) A flight instructor of an Armed Force in a program for training military pilots of either—
(i) The United States; or
(ii) A foreign contracting State to the Convention on International Civil Aviation.
(2) A flight instructor who is authorized to give such training by the licensing authority of a foreign contracting State to the Convention on International Civil Aviation, and the flight training is given outside the United States.
(b) A flight instructor described in paragraph (a) of this section is only authorized to give endorsements to show training given.

Joe
ps. your friend isn't a post-doc at Cal Tech is he?

PM me if I can be of any help. My guy got his TSA approval to start training Friday so he may be a bit ahead.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

doesn't limit the time to US-registered aircraft. I don't see how the FAA can refuse to count solo or oWhile the FAA can say the dual hours don't count unless they were flown with an FAA-certificated flight instructor, PIC time is PIC time is PIC time -- 14 CFR 61.51 ther post-PPL PIC time towards FAA certificates/ratings.

Mention John Lynch and I could believe anything. FWIW, I could imagine Mr. Lynch arguing that a foreign pilot is neither a "student pilot" nor a "private pilot" per FAA regulations and therefore unable to legally log flight time.

 

[kath]

ps. your friend isn't a post-doc at Cal Tech is he?

OMG, you are Stefan's instructor??? What a small world it is!

Well, heck, I thought I was consulting "independent sources" for information, hahaha... Well, tell him hi. He's an excellent pilot. I was riding along in the back seat when he took his "re-introductory" flight here out of Merrill Field...

--Kath

 

[Areeda]

OMG, you are Stefan's instructor??? What a small world it is!

Well, heck, I thought I was consulting "independent sources" for information, hahaha... Well, tell him hi. He's an excellent pilot. I was riding along in the back seat when he took his "re-introductory" flight here out of Merrill Field...

--Kath

Yep, first lesson is Wednesday. Got his TSA "approval to begin training" in 4 days from intial contact.

I'll point him to POA.

Joe

 

[Areeda]

I just got off the phone with the Van Nuys FSDO. The ops officer said 61.41.a.2 does apply and we would be able to count his Swiss training towards the 20 hr minimum. He did say to look over the logbook carefully and make sure the required items were spelled out.

Now my question is how to resolve the conflicting information?

Any help is appreciated.

Joe

 

[RogerT]

Mention John Lynch and I could believe anything. FWIW, I could imagine Mr. Lynch arguing that a foreign pilot is neither a "student pilot" nor a "private pilot" per FAA regulations and therefore unable to legally log flight time.

Haha. I have it on reliable source that his misinterpretation of many
things is why the FAQ was removed.

 

[Areeda]

Well, tell him hi.

He said he already traded email with you.

He's an excellent pilot. I was riding along in the back seat when he took his "re-introductory" flight here out of Merrill Field...--Kath

I agree. If I was doing a FR or a club checkout he'd be signed off now.

It is now a matter of what are the minimums here? This guy is better than most people who have a PPL.

He must do the PPL checkride, the only thing that matters is the PTS.

Kath, are you a physics {uh..} peron also? If so, WTF are gravity waves?

Joe

 

[flyingcheesehead]

So whaddaya think folks? Can dual time with an instructor overseas count towards the required dual for a U.S. PPL?

Just came across this while perusing part 61:

§ 61.41 Flight training received from flight instructors not certificated by the FAA.

(a) A person may credit flight training toward the requirements of a pilot certificate or rating issued under this part, if that person received the training from:

(2) A flight instructor who is authorized to give such training by the licensing authority of a foreign contracting State to the Convention on International Civil Aviation, and the flight training is given outside the United States.

So, it would seem that his training counts as long as the instructor he had overseas was authorized to give that instruction there and it wasn't some rogue state or something. Don't know where to find which countries qualify.

EDIT: It seems Joe posted this already... Joe, what did you find out from the FSDO?

 

[Areeda]

Well Stefan is now a licensed US Private Pilot.

Kent - I'm sorry I didn't see your last post until now.

61.41 did apply. I talked with a few more FSDO people about it and the final determination was that training in another ICAO country by an instructor of that country counts towards the training required. The final word is the DPE examining the logbook as copies are not sent with the license. He gave me the name of the person at the FSDO who he trusted to answer the question.

The big recommendation was to bring a map of Switzerland to prove any cross country time you want to count was more than 50 nm.

Joe