Audio Panel install cost

hkyplr18

hkyplr18

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Hey All- I have decided to install a PSE 8000Bti or 8000G and got a quote from a well known avionics shop for install. They want almost $4,000 just for Labor! That's roughly twice what the unit is going to cost. The labor would include replacing my existing 4 place jacks and wiring with new ($300 in parts), removing my current KMA20 and installing the PSE. Removing the existing stand-alone intercom and installing a cover plate. I would like to hear from others that have recently had an audio panel installed and what you paid for Labor. I just can't see how it would take over 40 labor hours for this install.

Thanks!
 
Installing an audio panel is quite a bit of very tedious work. Aside from having to put in the unit itself and the tray, the harness has to be wired to all of the radios (a fair amount of work). Depending on your panel layout, that may require a lot of disassembly to get to the appropriate harnesses, connectors, etc. And then replacing the intercom wiring will require pulling out a lot of your interior to get access to run the new wires. So in short, yes, it seems like a lot of time, but it's in fact a lot of work.
 
hkyplr18 said:
Hey All- I have decided to install a PSE 8000Bti or 8000G and got a quote from a well known avionics shop for install. They want almost $4,000 just for Labor! That's roughly twice what the unit is going to cost. The labor would include replacing my existing 4 place jacks and wiring with new ($300 in parts), removing my current KMA20 and installing the PSE. Removing the existing stand-alone intercom and installing a cover plate. I would like to hear from others that have recently had an audio panel installed and what you paid for Labor. I just can't see how it would take over 40 labor hours for this install.

Thanks!
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I received a similar quote in June for pulling my KA24 and separate intercom, and installing a Garmin 340. Long story short, I took a pass. Like you I had a hard time understanding how it takes somewhere around 40 hours for this installation but maybe because I simply don't understand the complexity of the work.
 
Audio panels (with internal intercoms) have more wiring in them than any other system. Each airplane has different equipment so they'll have to research interfaces for hard data to work with, hopefully they would create drawings that they give you at the end. Then they'll likely have to fight squawks, these airplanes are old and its easy to break something when doing this stuff. Then they pray there are no warranty claims afterwards.

How much of the interior has to be R&Red to run wiring?

I can't imagine doing one on something like a Grumman Tiger. Wedge your body under the panel on that? No thanks. A Cessna 150 isn't much better.
 
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At the risk of preaching the Avionics Gospel once more ...

Your salvation may be "intermediate connectors", which will do absolutely nothing for you in this particular installation, but will do wonders for any future changes.

EVERY wire from EVERY piece of avionics does NOT get hardwired anywhere but to an intermediate connector like a terminal/barrier strip connector. You know, the one that uses either spade or ring crimp connectors to attach to a machine screw. Then when the time comes to replace that particular piece of equipment, you simply unscrew the wires to that radio from the terminal strip, run the wires from the new radio to that strip, and you are back in business. An audio panel is a BIT more work as its wires go to each of the terminal strips, but even there, if it is a two day job you are WAY money ahead. Both Boeing and MickeyD aren't stupid and they do it this way.

Another way to proceed is to take the connectors from your current panel, buy the mating connectors for them and wire the new panel into the old panel's wiring through these mating connectors. That keeps you from rewiring the whole airplane.

And just a word to the wise ... you don't have to be a radio shop to install avionics. Lots of mechanics and technicians specialize in sparky work, and this time of year, lots of them like weekend work to make Christmas money. Problem is to find a good one.

Jim
 
weirdjim said:
And just a word to the wise ... you don't have to be a radio shop to install avionics. Lots of mechanics and technicians specialize in sparky work, and this time of year, lots of them like weekend work to make Christmas money. Problem is to find a good one.
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There's a guy here locally I met just this year who specializes in troubleshooting avionics and his day job is ferrying stuff across the big ponds. But he has his A&P and won't do anything else but troubleshooting. The catch is, he'll only do it in "interesting" airplanes and he gets paid in getting to go up in them. He doesn't need the money but he likes oddball stuff in his logbook.

This is, of course, why he looked at me funny when I asked if he ever does GPS installs in Cessnas, for cash even. :) (The look said, "Not a chance in hell.")
 
In our old 172, we replaced a KMA24 and a Sigtronics 4-place intercom with a PMA-7000.
The avionics shop quoted $1,800, based on the assumption that it will take them around 20 hours to install it. The connector to the radios was plug and play, all the intercom related connections however had to be re-wired.

At that time, I thought that the quote was a rip-off, so I decided to do it myself and have our mechnaic sign it off. :rolleyes:

Well, it took me weeks(!!) to finish the job and I think that I put between 30 and 40 hours into it. It was a big job and not exactly enjoyable. In hindsight, the shop's offer was a bargain, and I think that we should have just accepted it.

The wiring itself is easy - the problem is that much of the work has to be done in the cramped cockpit, behind the hard to access panels and that it needs to be integraded into an existing installation. I also had to pull both sides of the instrument panel and most of the instruments, in order to get sufficient access.
Depending on the plane and how much of the wiring needs to be re-done, I can easily see that the installation of an audio-panel takes even pros, who do this on a daily basis, 40 hours or more.
 
I can do stuff like this in my sleep, and I think I paid my avionics guy $2,500.00 (and that was using existing wires for the headset jacks). Glad to pay it.

It is a LOT of work.
 
Also keep in mind that old wiring in many aircraft is like a rats nest that needs to be cleared out and replaced with new wiring which adds to labor and cost.
 
When I added a second radio and an audio panel, I moved the whole thing to a work bench with the trays mounted in an angle iron rack. The great majority of the wiring goes between these pieces. When you are done and put it all back in the plane, you have a few wires to deal with that go elsewhere.
 
I'd get a PS Engineering 8000 series or a PMA450 series. There are 6 or so audio panels that use that tray and base wiring harness so many many options to choose from if you want to swap later, or need a loaner for any reason.

Plus, I'd rather use the sub-D contacts than the edge card ones.
 
Thanks for the replies fellas. This is why I like to post on here!
I'm going with an 8000 series for sure. I've opted against the 450A for now.
 
I just picked up my 182 from Georgia Avionics in Winder, GTX345 and GMA350, $5320 labor, $6375 for equipment. They basically pulled the radio stack and rewired a lot of it. Changed and moved all the headset jacks, the back seat jacks were under the seats, now they are on the upper sidewalls behind the seats. I also added an Air Gizmo dock for the 496 as a back up GPS and for XM music, that was a separate item of course. But, I figured, while they have it apart, I might as well get it all done. :D My son flew it home yesterday and LOVES having the traffic display from the 345!
 
Having done an installation of an audio panel supporting multiple comms, nav, etc. I can say it is not a small amount of work. Removing a KLN89B and KX155 then replacing it with an IFD540 was *much* less work than the audio panel. Seems backwards, but there it is.
 
hkyplr18 said:
Thanks for the replies fellas. This is why I like to post on here!
I'm going with an 8000 series for sure. I've opted against the 450A for now.
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I got the 450, not the "A". I would really recommend getting the 450A. The "copilot as passenger" mode is nice; my 450 doesn't have it. I do have a USB port in the audio panel, and that is really nice to have. The 450A has the newer port (USB-C ??). Anyway, any PS Engineering panel will be nice. BTW, my 450 install was a little under $2k, and that was replacing a KMA24.
 
hkyplr18 said:
Thanks for the replies fellas. This is why I like to post on here!
I'm going with an 8000 series for sure. I've opted against the 450A for now.
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Why? You really want to install old gear that is already obsolete? Kinda the retro-look?
 
The PSE 8000G just came out in September so not sure it's obsolete yet.... The 450A does more than I really need. I just want a clear intercom, simplicity and Bluetooth. The added USB charger in the G makes sense as well.

Unit74 said:
Why? You really want to install old gear that is already obsolete? Kinda the retro-look?
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How much is it?

I would suggest before you buy, give a call to Chase at Avionics Source. I got my 450A for a little over dealer cost. He also has network installers across the US. If you are on Beechtalk, send him a PM. He will respond tonight or to,or row AM. Guaranteed. Plus he's an active member. Or, goggle them and get the number.

Just an option for better gear at not much more than what you will pay for that 8000G
 
Graueradler said:
When I added a second radio and an audio panel, I moved the whole thing to a work bench with the trays mounted in an angle iron rack. The great majority of the wiring goes between these pieces. When you are done and put it all back in the plane, you have a few wires to deal with that go elsewhere.
Click to expand...

I really like the idea of moving the radios with trays to a work bench, doing all the wiring and reinstalling it in the plane. So how hard was it to remove all the existing wiring? Did you reuse any of the connectors or go with all new?

I have been thinking of adding and audio panel, currently I have two NAV/COMS, but they are interfaced with switches not a true audio panel.

Comments please. Thanks
 
Nice! Thanks for the info, I'll give him a shout. I'm on BT do you know his username?

Unit74 said:
How much is it?

I would suggest before you buy, give a call to Chase at Avionics Source. I got my 450A for a little over dealer cost. He also has network installers across the US. If you are on Beechtalk, send him a PM. He will respond tonight or to,or row AM. Guaranteed. Plus he's an active member. Or, goggle them and get the number.

Just an option for better gear at not much more than what you will pay for that 8000G
Click to expand...
 
He is Chase Larabee. There is a huge PMA450A thread in Avionics he is all up in. Or he just posted unless some stuff in classifieds.

I'll bet he has a used PMA450. I traded mine in when I got the 450A, but that's been about 2 months. If you are set on the 8000, it's highly likely he has one, or will very shortly with all the 450A upgrades pilots are doing. It's a slide in replacement and a some AP book entry.
 
Unit74 said:
He is Chase Larabee. There is a huge PMA450A thread in Avionics he is all up in. Or he just posted unless some stuff in classifieds.

I'll bet he has a used PMA450. I traded mine in when I got the 450A, but that's been about 2 months. If you are set on the 8000, it's highly likely he has one, or will very shortly with all the 450A upgrades pilots are doing. It's a slide in replacement and a some AP book entry.
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would you mind PM'ing me with how much the swap was? Was it a straight swap in the tray or was rewiring required?
 
rbridges said:
would you mind PM'ing me with how much the swap was? Was it a straight swap in the tray or was rewiring required?
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I had a GMA340 and it was a one Allen screw job. Unscrew 340, slide out. Slide in 450A, screw down Allen. Fired it up, checked the functions, AP made a small log entry and I was done. 5 min job.

My swap was kinda convoluted because I traded in the GMA340 for a $750 credit. Paid $1100 on top of that. No sooner did I get the 450 that PSE announced the 450A. Chase took it back no questions, I wrote another check for $200 or so and he sent me a 450A as soon as Mark started shipping them. So I was actually one of the first kids on the block with a flying 450A in the US.
 
Thanks. I got the 450 about a year ago, but I really want the "copilot as passenger" function. We end up putting my wife on ISO so she can stream music uninterrupted. I know it's a first world problem, but I may look into swapping.
 
rbridges said:
Thanks. I got the 450 about a year ago, but I really want the "copilot as passenger" function. We end up putting my wife on ISO so she can stream music uninterrupted. I know it's a first world problem, but I may look into swapping.
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Sell your 450 to HK and buy a 450A! What will Chase give you on trade for the 450?
 
hkyplr18 said:
What are the main differences between the 450 and the 450A ?
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the only two I know are the power port and the isolation modes. The 450A has the newer USB-C connector on the front. It also allows you to isolate the copilot as a passenger. Nothing ground breaking but nice features to have.
 
hkyplr18 said:
What are the main differences between the 450 and the 450A ?
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https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...o-panel-that-will-do-this.98097/#post-2138724

The PMA450A new feature "Co-Pilot as Passenger" mode does exactly this. It makes the co-pilot seat behave like a passenger allowing intercom between ALL parties (including pilot) yet isolating all passengers from any radio communications so the only thing passengers hear is music & intercom chatter. The pilot hears intercom, radios, music (if desired) and intercom/music mutes (if desired) when radio communication is happening. I just installed a 450A and have it set up as co-pilot (wife) as passenger to do what the OP is desiring (if I understand correctly).

You could easily work around this on the 8000 series and probably others, if you only have a 4 place airplane, by wiring up an unused passenger circuit to the copilot position. Could be clever and add a switch allowing a single mic & phone jack set to do both or you could put two mic and two phone jacks at the copilot seat.


Or in my case, if the passenger in the copilot seat is annoyed by the ATC chatter, I'll just have them plug into the passenger jacks behind them. I almost never have all seats full of people so that should rarely be a problem.
 
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