ATC - When you issue - turn right heading 270 on climbout

WannFly

WannFly

Final Approach
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Priyo
scenario:

VFR Practice approach, i requested stop and go after my MAP and was granted with my initial missed instruction - fly runway heading and climb to 3000 (by approach controller)

on climbout at about 300 AGL i was issued - turn right heading 270 climb and maintain 3500

i did not initiate my turn until 500 AGL, thats typically my minimum before i do any yank and bank operation. usually i get a "when able" after a instruction like that, this time i didnt.

so the Q is, when you guys issue turn right ... during a clibout and there is no conflict with other aircrafts, do you expect us to turn immediately? upon reaching safe altitude?

i am sure if there was a conflict the message would have been a little different.
 
Per the FAR/AIM :

“Unless specified otherwise, required obstacle clearance for all departures, including diverse, is based on the pilot crossing the departure end of the runway at least 35 feet above the departure end of runway elevation, climbing to 400 feet above the departure end of runway elevation before making the initial turn, and maintaining a minimum climb gradient of 200 feet per nautical mile (FPNM), unless required to level off by a crossing restriction, until the minimum IFR altitude.”
 
well, i wasnt at the departure end, in fact had more than a mile of runway under me when i was issued the turn, but i guess the above applies in normal operations, but in this case, i think it would fall under "unless specified otherwise"
 
My first CFI drilled into me to not turn until 500 AGL. Departing a Class C recently, I obtained VFR FF on the ground and was instructed to fly a heading of 270. At ~300 AGL, tower, with some tone, reminded me of the 270 heading. I thought, wow, when did they expect me to start the turn?
 
that how i was trained too. while a shallow back at 300 AGL wont hurt, i would have flown right over the tower. may be next time i should just take the opportunity to buzz them
 
"Unable" ?

It's generally negotiable. If I don't like something I let them know, politely, generally with another option.

Several years ago when I started flying a Baron 58 the Tower at PDK gave me the shorter runway. I asked for the longer runway and said that if they needed vector me or have me extend to fit in that was fine. They just immediately gave me the longer runway. Later when I was more comfortable with the plane I took whichever runway they gave me.

I've had ATC ask me to descend over Lake Okeechobee in Florida to the point where my glide range wouldn't get me to land. I let them know that I needed to stay high enough to be able to glide to shore. They just needed me down by a point later, which was fine. I just have something against being eaten by an alligator. :eek:

If you feel it's a safety issue, let them know.
 
RyanB said:
Per the FAR/AIM :

“Unless specified otherwise, required obstacle clearance for all departures, including diverse, is based on the pilot crossing the departure end of the runway at least 35 feet above the departure end of runway elevation, climbing to 400 feet above the departure end of runway elevation before making the initial turn, and maintaining a minimum climb gradient of 200 feet per nautical mile (FPNM), unless required to level off by a crossing restriction, until the minimum IFR altitude.”
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For some reason, people think this says, "you must turn at 400 AGL and no later." I've actually been looking for something which says that. So far, haven't found it.
 
MICHAEL MAHN said:
My first CFI drilled into me to not turn until 500 AGL. Departing a Class C recently, I obtained VFR FF on the ground and was instructed to fly a heading of 270. At ~300 AGL, tower, with some tone, reminded me of the 270 heading. I thought, wow, when did they expect me to start the turn?
Click to expand...
At a towered airport, if they need you to turn right away, you'll hear that.
 
MICHAEL MAHN said:
My first CFI drilled into me to not turn until 500 AGL. Departing a Class C recently, I obtained VFR FF on the ground and was instructed to fly a heading of 270. At ~300 AGL, tower, with some tone, reminded me of the 270 heading. I thought, wow, when did they expect me to start the turn?
Click to expand...

Sometimes they expect what they didn’t ask for. Wouldn’t worry about it too much.

WannFly said:
that how i was trained too. while a shallow back at 300 AGL wont hurt, i would have flown right over the tower. may be next time i should just take the opportunity to buzz them
Click to expand...

I’ve done that. Reply with “early crosswind approved?” They say yeah, they know they’ll get a little show. Haha.

midlifeflyer said:
At a towered airport, if they need you to turn right away, you'll hear that.
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I’ve seen them forget to ask. Either in plain English or the more proper “expedite”, phraseology-wise.

However you slice it, I’m not turning at super low level until both ends of the radio know that’s the plan. Or there’s traffic barreling at me and the poor controller is just having a bad day. Which... also happens.

There’s always room for making a judgement call for safety when the pattern is a zoo.
 
In our Part 135 operation, we are actually prohibited from making the turn below 500’ AGL under normal circumstances. We can if necessary for ATC, weather, terrain or other unusual circumstances.
 
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midlifeflyer, this actually happened to me in your back yard...KRDU. I understand. There was a turbine-something departing behind me for which I believe they were wanting me to clear the airspace.
 
denverpilot said:
Sometimes they expect what they didn’t ask for. Wouldn’t worry about it too much.
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This, exactly!

The 400' reference from the AIM establishes a normal expectation.

That 400' comes pretty quick in jets and turboprops, though, so there may be situations where a controller expected the turn to start sooner, time-wise, in a slowly climbing G.A. airplane. Often, they are departing faster traffic behind you and need to establish a diverging ground track. In such a case, start a slow turn when speed and altitude permits, so that they'll see your ground track diverging from the runway centerline, until you reach ~400' and can continue with a normal rate of turn.

Generally, though, if they need something other than a turn starting at 400', and the far end of the runway, they should probably say so.
 
RyanB said:
Per the FAR/AIM :

“Unless specified otherwise, required obstacle clearance for all departures, including diverse, is based on the pilot crossing the departure end of the runway at least 35 feet above the departure end of runway elevation, climbing to 400 feet above the departure end of runway elevation before making the initial turn, and maintaining a minimum climb gradient of 200 feet per nautical mile (FPNM), unless required to level off by a crossing restriction, until the minimum IFR altitude.”
Click to expand...
midlifeflyer said:
For some reason, people think this says, "you must turn at 400 AGL and no later." I've actually been looking for something which says that. So far, haven't found it.
Click to expand...

And the quoted AIM advice to climb to 400 feet "before" making the turn implies that "after" is OK, I would think.
 
MICHAEL MAHN said:
midlifeflyer, this actually happened to me in your back yard...KRDU. I understand. There was a turbine-something departing behind me for which I believe they were wanting me to clear the airspace.
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same here. some big iron behind me was in a hurry to go to vegas
 
wayne said:
"Unable" ?

It's generally negotiable. If I don't like something I let them know, politely, generally with another option.
Click to expand...
yah unable is always an option. i said something like "turning to 270 in about 200 feet"
 
Palmpilot said:
And the quoted AIM advice to climb to 400 feet "before" making the turn implies that "after" is OK, I would think.
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That's why I'm wondering. At some point extending the runway heading could conceivably cause a traffic separation issue - the diverse departure area is 25 miles - so there's at least some "reasonable" limitation, but I've never seen anything about it. What if you are departing a nontowered airport when the conditions are VFR and wait until 800 or 1000 AGL in deference to pattern traffic ? Truthfully, it's probably one of those strange questions my weird brain sometimes comes up with.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Truthfully, it's probably one of those strange questions my weird brain sometimes comes up with.
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dce9cef9d009e502a8a260b84e70c134.jpg


LOL!
 
I just always turn as soon as practical after reaching 400 for diverse departure. I do it in the single, and it’s SOP at both airlines I worked for... not sure the downside, ask if in doubt what they want... I suppose it’s more of an issue on a vfr day at a towered airport. But usually they will say “flying runway heading...”


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gsengle said:
I just always turn as soon as practical after reaching 400 for diverse departure. I do it in the single, and it’s SOP at both airlines I worked for... not sure the downside, ask if in doubt what they want... I suppose it’s more of an issue on a vfr day at a towered airport. But usually they will say “flying runway heading...”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Yup, we turn at 400 ft if it's VMC, 1000 ft if IMC (unless performance data otherwise says).
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
Yup, we turn at 400 ft if it's VMC, 1000 ft if IMC (unless performance data otherwise says).
Click to expand...

We turn 400 in IMC unless instructed otherwise. Callout is either “FMS NAV” or “Heading”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I had this same thing after departure at LAS around 300’ agl... he asked me to turn, so I did.
 
I fly out of a non-towered airport and usually climb to 400' agl before turning. However, if there is someone behind me waiting to takeoff, I will turn a lot sooner. Of course, that is when flying VFR, so the diverse departure requirements, etc. are not necessary since I can see the terrain and obstructions.
 
Typical initial climb out instructions out of RDU are climb to xxxx turn to 160 or whatever. There are towers to the south and southeast of the airport they keep you away from.

If you are IFR, the climb out instructions get you to the MVA in the area then once you pass that altitude onward per your filed route (or direct).

I have been asked to turn as soon as practical when taking off to the south at RDU on 23L.
 
When I'm IFR, I am turning at 400' and the end of the runway, unless there is something big that just took off in front of me. Then I'm the one asking for an early turn.
 
I think original question was based on VFR, but the AIM referenced refers to a departure, which is IFR procedure and based on TERPS (criteria used in USA for designing IFR stuff like departures, airways, arrivals, ect., which figures in obstacle clearances, thus minimum 400 ft before turns per TERPS....can be lower and noted at certain airports takeoff page). Same for ICAO airports, but their criteria is called PANOPs.

I don't recall a hard min alt for turns after VFR departure, but turning too low can really affect your alt reached and lower glide distance if you pop an engine. I would suggest the PIC to make that min alt based on circumstances. If anyone has ever done a simulated engine failure after takeoff at 500 ft, you would likely see a loss of over 400 ft in the 180 turn, and would likely want to hold off dumping vertical lift in a turn too soon.
 
In training, I was taught to generally turn VFR 300' below TPA
 
AlphaPilotFlyer said:
I don't recall a hard min alt for turns after VFR departure,
Click to expand...
AIM 4-3-2

“Departure. The flight path which begins after takeoff and continues straight ahead along the extended runway centerline. The departure climb continues until reaching a point at least 1/2 mile beyond the departure end of the runway and within 300 feet of the traffic pattern altitude.”
 
jordane93 said:
AIM 4-3-2
Click to expand...
“The following terminology for the various components of a traffic pattern has been adopted as standard for use by control towers and pilots.”
jordane93 said:
“Departure. The flight path which begins after takeoff and continues straight ahead along the extended runway centerline. The departure climb continues until reaching a point at least 1/2 mile beyond the departure end of the runway and within 300 feet of the traffic pattern altitude.”
Click to expand...
Note that the part that you skipped says the definition is about terminology, not operational requirements.
 
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