ATC "Straight-In" & Wide Downwind Positioning Question

76777

76777

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76777
Hello Gentlemen,

Kind of embarrassed to ask this question (<2hr time solo) but: Today going into a Class D i was told to "make straight in" by ATC, so I headed Direct-To the airport via GPS....should I have lined up instead on extended centerline first, then made straight in (like 10-15 mile final)? I was *NOT* given any clearance to land, so should I have started to descend from Pattern Altitude? Eventually when I was getting too close & low for comfort, I called stating "Tower, sorry sir student pilot, is N# cleared to land or would you like us to go elsewhere?" which was met with cleared to land. Otherwise what would I supposed to have done? Did i do this wrong?

Second, a week ago I was coming back and ATC told me 'start your downwind turn now & do it wide' to which I did, flying @ 45deg to midfield pattern-altitude... it was a long diagonal. ATC came back when I was established on the downwind abeam the tower yelling at me that he instructed 'do it wide way back there long ago because i wanted it for traffic spacing' (there was 1 other guy in pattern doing a practice IFR missed approach) - they wanted me to do a downwind about 5-6 miles away from the airport apparently... I mean like, downwind practically skirting outside the Class D.... How do i know when tower wants me to turn EARLY, but make a reasonably spaced downwind, vs making a TURN, and immediately going downwind. Am i unreasonable here?

Some guidance on issue #1 & #2 would be greatly appreciate from my seniors :) thank you
 
My answers, also a low-time pilot:

#1: In my experience, a straight-in approach means along the extended centerline of the runway to which he has directed you. Beyond that, your descent to pattern altitude, speed, etc., should be as needed for the landing. You're not yet cleared, so you can't actually land, but you can fully proceed with the expectation he will clear you unless you hear otherwise from him. You made a great decision asking for your landing clearance. It's not at all uncommon for the controller to "forget" about you, so if in doubt, always confirm.

#2: I'm as confused as you are. "Start it now" and "do it wide" are conflicting and fairly non-standard instructions in my mind. If he wanted you wide, why would he direct you to start the downwind right away? Maybe he just wanted a slooowww, wide downwind turn? That's just a guess.

[EDIT] - Welcome to POA.
 
Yeah, you should have lined up with the extended centerline, or at least close to it. And downwind means parallel to the runway.

When in doubt, ask. You did OK under the circumstances.

Those are some pretty weird conditions to throw at a student pilot. I'm asked to do straight ins and extend downwind all the time, but I don't think I've ever been asked to fly a B-52 pattern.
 
76777 said:
Hello Gentlemen,

Kind of embarrassed to ask this question (<2hr time solo) but: Today going into a Class D i was told to "make straight in" by ATC, so I headed Direct-To the airport via GPS....should I have lined up instead on extended centerline first, then made straight in (like 10-15 mile final)?...
Click to expand...

When I get an instruction like that, I don't regard it as requiring me to line up on the final approach course 10-15 miles out. I take it as meaning that I can intercept the final approach course at whatever distance is comfortable for me. I would have used the moving map feature of the GPS to estimate a heading that would accomplish that. The "straight in" instruction just means that you can skip the downwind and base legs of the pattern, in my opinion.
 
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Welcome to PoA! Good questions.

Where were you in relation to the threshold (range & bearing) when you were cleared "straight in"? The instruction wouldn't make much sense if you were more than about 30 deg. off the centerline.

First, you should ask your CFI. After all, instruction is what you're paying him for.

The straight in instruction means the controller does not want you to fly a rectangular pattern. However, you still want to set up for a stabilized approach. If it were me, when I was flying a 172, I would probably steer to be about 1 mile off the threshold on the centerline before leaving pattern altitude. I pick that altitude because most patterns are 1,000 AGL, and I used to plan for 1 mile glide per thousand feet of altitude in an emergency situation. On a normal approach, you'll probably use some flaps, so losing 1,000 ft in a mile is not excessive. As for asking for confirmation of your landing clearance -- absolutely nothing wrong with that. The controller may have been working the ground freq. as well, or talking on a land line to approach to get a departure clearance for someone else. He just may have plum forgot about you for a minute. You did the right thing.

As for the downwind, yeah, tower was asking you to fly a B-52 pattern. "Do it wide" is a little unclear (did he mean make the turn wide or the pattern?), but he wanted you to turn before you might have otherwise, told you to turn, and you kept on motoring towards the airport. In the grand scheme of things, no one hurt, no bent metal; and I'm sure you'll do better next time.
 
And when you have any doubt about the intent of an ATC instruction, never hesitate to ask for clarification.
 
76777 said:
Hello Gentlemen,

Kind of embarrassed to ask this question (<2hr time solo) but: Today going into a Class D i was told to "make straight in" by ATC, so I headed Direct-To the airport via GPS....should I have lined up instead on extended centerline first, then made straight in (like 10-15 mile final)? I was *NOT* given any clearance to land, so should I have started to descend from Pattern Altitude? Eventually when I was getting too close & low for comfort, I called stating "Tower, sorry sir student pilot, is N# cleared to land or would you like us to go elsewhere?" which was met with cleared to land. Otherwise what would I supposed to have done? Did i do this wrong?

Second, a week ago I was coming back and ATC told me 'start your downwind turn now & do it wide' to which I did, flying @ 45deg to midfield pattern-altitude... it was a long diagonal. ATC came back when I was established on the downwind abeam the tower yelling at me that he instructed 'do it wide way back there long ago because i wanted it for traffic spacing' (there was 1 other guy in pattern doing a practice IFR missed approach) - they wanted me to do a downwind about 5-6 miles away from the airport apparently... I mean like, downwind practically skirting outside the Class D.... How do i know when tower wants me to turn EARLY, but make a reasonably spaced downwind, vs making a TURN, and immediately going downwind. Am i unreasonable here?

Some guidance on issue #1 & #2 would be greatly appreciate from my seniors :) thank you
Click to expand...
1 to 2 mile final is good for a straight in. It just means don't join on the 45, how you get there is up to you.
As for the 'do it wide' it is the controller who requires education, not you.
I will always try to accommodate ATC when they ask me for a non-standard join for traffic purposes. 'Keep your speed up' or 'make a 2 mile final' or 'I will call your base' are good examples but 'do it wide'? I don't think I have ever heard that one... yet !!!
You did OK.
Stephen.
 
Aha, I didn't read the second part closely enough. In my mind I saw the OP doing pattern work, on the crosswind leg, preparing to turn base. But as I re-read, I see he was approaching the airport. Still, that's a somewhat confusing instruction that I am not surprised he had trouble interpreting.
 
"Start your downwind turn now" means start downwind, not start a 45 towards downwind. But, as others have said, don't assume, just ask for clarification. It was definitely an uncommon request.
 
May as well learn this right now. ATC exists to serve you, not the other way around. You're the guy in the airplane and there is no reason at any time for a traffic controller to yell at you.

Too many people watching "Pushing Tin" I suppose :rolleyes2:
 
Wow thanks guys for 10 great replys so quickly! After reading each I feel in better spirits it makes sense now.

LOL @ the 'B-52 pattern' term, yes that is a PERFECT descriptor!
 
I remember watching those B-52s doing pattern work at KDYS.
They needed the elbow room!
 
Just remember that controllers are people too. They'll get distracted or occasionally forget about you. More likely, they won't forget about you but you'll think they did. Either way, a quick call on the radio like you did is usually all it takes to get them back to you.

And if you get an instruction to "do it wide" that you don't understand, the "Student pilot, say again?" will help.
 
Welcome to PoA and congrats on being solo already!

Great responses here. Instead of repeating what others have said here, I can advise the same: do not hesitate to ask/clarify. And the 2 magical words "student pilot" can help and if a controller is having a bad day, it might actually remind him that we are all human and calm him down.

As for wide downwind, I flew one just last weekend. I was approaching the airport on the DW side and the (always cool) tower controller asked me for a wide downwind and pointed out an MU2 on the close DW. And then there was a 3rd aircraft off of my wingtip, doing a ... I guess ... "double-wide" DW. :) It was a very busy day, gorgeous weather, everybody and their brother flying. :)

Now go fly and have FUN!
 
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