At what point could you feel subtle uncoordination?

On the one hand, when paying attention, I can definitely feel and hear slips and skids, especially when flying with a student.

Then again, when distracted or not paying attention, I can get quite out of kilter and not notice it.

Example:

7425385928_94480d99a0.jpg


It's a screen shot from about 3:30 into this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjlU_JlvDIQ

Of note is that I did not notice it at all in flight - I was paying attention to the approach into a tricky airport. Pretty obvious when watching the video, though!
 
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FastEddieB said:
Then again, when distracted or not paying attention, I can get quite out of kilter and not notice it.
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I think that is how a lot of stall/spin accidents happen in the pattern. Distraction. Everybody is fully coordinated and everybody does their GUMPS check and everybody nails their airspeed... when everything goes as usual in the pattern. It's when your mind gets fixated on a problem that it takes priority over the basics and things go amiss.

The number one thing that distracts me is traffic that I know from the radio is out there, but I can't find them. My fear of a mid air causes me to lapse in my regular pattern duties. I know I have this tendency, so I really have to slap myself to remember to fly the plane in these situations!
 
First, congratulations on at least trying to become coordinated. Most folks these days learn to fly in aircraft that have been designed to minimize any adverse yaw. Who knew that would be the end of stick and rudder pilots forever, but, that's kind of what happened. To properly learn well the art of stick and rudder it's essential to fly an airplane that really requires their use. In other words, one that makes the person flying it look like a complete nincompoop -- unless the rudder and ailerons are used correctly. Cub, Citabria, Champ Luscombe, Taylorcraft, Stearman, etc, work well. Note: A good instructor helps. For a primer, go to Airbum.com and poke around for an article about "Rudder, what's it for?" It takes a while, but once you learn, no pilot who flies with you will doubt your skill set.
 
Problem is that we sit so close to the CG of the airplane that it is difficult to feel "subtle" incoordination. You can feel it much easier in the back.

So one of the things I like to do with a student is have a spouse, partner or significant other come along on a flight and sit in the back with instructions to hit the pilot in the back of the head whenever they can feel their butts sliding. :idea:

Much, much more effective than any other teaching technique I've seen or heard of :yesnod:
 
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After so much time in a glider, I can feel the slip or skid after a few seconds in the 150. It just doesnt feel or look just right.
 
I experimented with this a little and found that I can sense the slip in the torso first. My butt is typically buckled in too well. Still, even so it has to be a significant slip. Worse, it has to be a significant skid too, outside of safe envelope for turns in many airplanes.

I mentioned it in a comment at Brent Owens' blog and he said that his butt used to be more sensitive when he was younger, too. He is an experienced CFI, although not sure if he does acro.

I learned to get over it in the end. In a familar airplane, I know the right amount of rudder for any common maneuver. I only learned to verify that I'm not skidding once banked and turning, by a quick glance, just in case, even if busy with looking for other airplanes in pattern etc.
 
I was really concentrating on feeling the slip today when I was doing pattern work. I could feel the difference and well as when I kicked in more rudder. What I also noticed was I could feel the slip before the ball gave any indication of being outside the limit marks.
 
j1b3h0 said:
First, congratulations on at least trying to become coordinated. Most folks these days learn to fly in aircraft that have been designed to minimize any adverse yaw. Who knew that would be the end of stick and rudder pilots forever, but, that's kind of what happened. To properly learn well the art of stick and rudder it's essential to fly an airplane that really requires their use. In other words, one that makes the person flying it look like a complete nincompoop -- unless the rudder and ailerons are used correctly. Cub, Citabria, Champ Luscombe, Taylorcraft, Stearman, etc, work well. Note: A good instructor helps. For a primer, go to Airbum.com and poke around for an article about "Rudder, what's it for?" It takes a while, but once you learn, no pilot who flies with you will doubt your skill set.
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I never, ever really figured it out until I was flying with my tailwheel instructor - John. The work we did really helped. That and flying a J-3 around that didn't have a ball. I could tell a student what rudder they needed by feel and it frustrated them because they didn't have a ball to look at. Usually, by being better coordinated, I could get to pattern altitude about half a mile faster than the average student.
 
While you can 'feel' a lot of uncoordinated motion, you can't fly it accurately by 'feel', no matter how much you practice. And by 'feel' I mean without some kind of visual reference. Of course, that's the basis for instrument flight but it's not completely obvious unless you try to actually do it.

If I feel that uncoordinated sensation and take a critical look at the picture outside, I can get coordinated pretty accurately without instruments... that is except for the nose and the horizon.

If you think you can accurately feel what's happening in the seat of your pants, try it again in some turbulence.

The TW time is a good thing. The Maule needs rudder input to do practically everything. Getting the plane straight and coordinated becomes 2nd nature without the ball or anything else... as long as you can see the horizon.

To find out just how misleading the feelings in your body can be, try blind flight with only a ball and slip indicator or just a yaw string along with some turbulence. It can be accomplished by freezing the rudder pedals and keeping things coordinated with the ball or yaw string. You can stay level or in a constant turn despite the turbulence as long as you ignore what your body is telling you. The minute you don't, say bye.
 
whifferdill said:
Skid balls are prone to misindications, which is why glider folks use yaw strings. But a yaw string with an engine in front will not read realiably. Unless the skid ball is mounted precisely on the roll axis of the airplane (they never are), it'll never indicate properly while the airplane is in the process of rolling...which is the time when you must be using the right amount of rudder with the ailerons rolling in and out of a turn. They'll typically only indicate fairly acurately when the airplane is a steady state bank angle, level or otherwise.

I would make an effort to forget about the ball. You don't need it. Take someone along in the airplane as a safety pilot, and close your eyes while rolling the airplane back and forth. Closing your eyes will remove the visual distractions. You will feel yourself sliding around in the seat if you don't use the rudder properly. Use more rudder in the direction you feel yourself sliding. If you make a conscious effort to pay attention to this feeling as you fly, you'll develop good coordination, which will eventually become second nature. But as with any skill, you must make the effort and not be lazy.
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Feel your butt. Become your butt. Haha.

Zen. LOL.
 
I think it comes with good instruction and building time. More time solves a lot of this but only if a good instructor goes along from time to time. Taildraggers make one much more aware of rudder inputs and provide an excellent foundation for aircraft control. This becomes obvious if you have some time in one, or better yet learned in one.
 
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