Aspen OAT probe - major issues

peter-h

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peter-h
A friend of mine is on his 3rd system (the last one failed totally) and all three have shown OAT measurement errors.

His latest one, latest firmware, shows an OAT of +14 against +8 for the known-good Davtron probe, and this is during a 95kt IAS climb so negligible aerodynamic heating. In cruise the difference reduces to 3C but that is still too high; +1C versus -2C is everything when it comes to managing one's vertical profile for icing risk.

I don't think there is any easy way to calibrate out the errors, because AFAIK the Aspen probe uses a thermistor. The well known GTX330 OAT probe errors are easier to deal with (in an uncertified situation, anyway...) because that uses the AD590-based Davtron probe which draws a current in uA equal to the temp in K.

However it seems that there is a more basic issue, caused by heat conduction through the aircraft ceiling.

I wonder if Aspen will one day offer a proper remote probe, like the Davtron one?
 
Peter,

For a variety of reasons, the install manual recommends that the RSM be installed aft of the cabin bullkhead.
 
John,

Do you believe there is going to be a significant difference in the airflow temperature, anywhere over the roof?

I don't think so, at piston GA speeds.

IMHO, and looking how many reports I have seen so far, this looks like a misguided bit of design, with a way too excessive OAT sensor tolerance. And the error is in the A-D conversion; the thermistors (I remember looking up the actual component used) are accurate to about 0.2C (pre-linearisation).

It looks like the GTX330 business all over again, except this time the pilots notice it, whereas few went for the OAT probe option on the 330 and even fewer would have bothered about the accuracy of it. Mine was 3C off.

However there could also be a big self-heating issue here. What else is inside that module? A GPS antenna should be ~ 5V 30mA i.e. 0.15W which is nothing but I recall there is other stuff there.

Peter
 
A similar issue was identified in the RV forum back in April 2009. That time the Aspen indicated 10 C low compared to a calibrated gauge.

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=28625&page=3

The Aspen Installation Manual indicates the RSM OAT I/O is "proprietary digital".

The recommendation to place the RSM aft of the cabin bulkhead is to minimize magnetic interference from cabin equipment. The RSM includes the magnetic flux sensors which is why it is important to locate the RSM as far away from the cabin and baggage (or “hat rack”) compartment as practical.

I think your suggestion of "heat conduction through the aircraft ceiling" got lost in translation. I'm not sure what you meant by that (two countries separated by a common language, maybe?).

 
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Compared to a standard under-wing OAT probe, I would expect the Aspen one to be reading high when on the ground, for a number of reasons

- the temp in the cockpit is higher due to solar gain, and this gets conducted through the aircraft roof ("ceiling" in English?)
- solar radiation arriving on the aircraft roof

The spec I saw was +/- 4C which is far too broad anyway for OAT usage.

Temperature measurement needs a lot of care to get it right.

In flight, I would expect the airflow temperature to dominate, but a lot depends on where in the module the thermistor actually is. If it is near the top surface, that might work OK. If OTOH it is mounted on the mounting plate, then again you will be picking up the cockpit temperature, which this time is likely to be a LOT higher than the OAT.

I don't think this will ever work properly. They need a separate OAT probe, which needs to be mounted under the wing if you are expecting a reasonable reading on the ground. And it is reasonable to expect this to be accurate on the ground, because checking the OAT probe is one of the preflight checks. Without an accurate OAT probe, you cannot contemplate flight in potentially icing conditions.

IMHO Aspen have dropped the ball on this badly and are working hard on damage limitation; the usual aviation business of telling everybody that nobody else has the problem. They are stuck because there is no easy solution they can do for $10 or even $1000; not if they have a digital interface to the rooftop module i.e. the A-D conversion is done up there. Unfortunately for them (and many others) there is the internet.......
 
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Peter,

The OAT probe is inside the RSM, it gets access to the airstream via a hole on the rear of the RSM and therefore is not oriented into the slipstream.
 
I'm beginning to think the honeymoon is over with Aspen.

I have an Evolution PFD 1000 Pro. Today during an attempted software update the unit would not accept the file transfer. Apparently there is a fault in the unit that causes it to "think" it is moving at 33-35 kts while sitting on the ground, which is above the threshold for locking out configuration changes (it doesn't want you to change certain internal system configuration settings/values in flight). This fault is also suspected where the unit started switching to internal battery automatically rather than shutting down upon de-energizing the avionics bus during normal aircraft shutdown a few weeks ago. I've been made aware that I am not the only owner to experience this latest problem. Apparently there's no means available to re-calibrate the unit to correct this fault in the field.

The fix from Aspen...either purchase an exchange unit outright for $995 or put in an Extended Service Warranty claim and get an exchange for $695. Aspen allowed me to purchase an Extended Warranty and apply for an exchange even though the "original warranty" had expired. I think they may have taken into account this will be 5th unit they've supplied me since original purchase in 2008, each with its own defects. The low exchange prices are probably due to a glut of refurbished early units they have in stock.

I'm not happy that a sensor/computational module fault of this nature prevents a software update nor am I happy such a fault occurred in a unit with less than 200 flight hrs and 14 calendar on it (this particular unit was installed in April 2010) and that the only fix is to replace the entire unit. In-flight performance seems to be nominal but I believe I've entered the "what next" realm. Despite approaching 5 years in the market the device is still exhibiting unanticipated failure modes.

I posted in this thread to keep an emergent Aspen issue collected with previous reports. Thanks for the vent and you may now return to your regular program.
 
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A friend of mine, here in Europe, has just had his (approx) third total failure of the panel mounted unit.

Aspen are replacing the unit but as the last one lasted just over 1 year they are not paying for the replacement labour, which is a significant amount - 4 figures.

Aspen told him the failure may have been caused by flying in an area where there was a thunderstorm :mad2:

I know a number of Aspen owners but don't actually know anybody who has not had major problems.

In keeping with aviation tradition, most are trying to keep quiet about these things because they want to protect the aircraft resale value (**), and also they would lose the support of the Aspen dealer who installed the unit. I found this behaviour very prominent on the KFC225 autopilot, which has suffered a ~ 100% servo failure rate.

Also, few pilots like to drag out problems into the open because Aspen is one of the few (apparent) GA avionics success stories, so they ride on a lot of goodwill.

The indications are that Aspen have always had major QA (software, hardware, or production) issues, and have never solved them.

(**) How this actually works, beats me, because the issues are going to be written up in your airframe logbooks, which any prospective buyer is going to look at. Unless you get logbook inserts done instead (which is quite common) and dispose of them...
 
Aspen are replacing the unit but as the last one lasted just over 1 year they are not paying for the replacement labour, which is a significant amount - 4 figures.

Something is fishy here. Replacing the Aspen unit is as simple as replacing any steam gauge. It should only take an hour our so. All aircraft specific data is stored on a card that gets swapped out of the old unit. Even if you did go through the full set-up and check flight you're only looking at 3 or 4 hours.
 
In-flight performance seems to be nominal but I believe I've entered the "what next" realm. Despite approaching 5 years in the market the device is still exhibiting unanticipated failure modes.

As we just got our Aspen installed, it'll be interesting to see what its reliability is like. Of the two people not on PoA I know personally who have them installed (both with well over 200 hours on their units), neither of them have had any issues. It's interesting to read about them on here.

I seem to recall that you've had a few other issues with your Aspen, Steve, but maybe I could be recalling incorrectly. I prefer not to be a first adopter of any technology, simply to give it a few years for them to work at least some of the bugs out. That said, most of what we're using in aviation has over 20 years of service history on it. At 5 years, it doesn't surprise me that they still have some unanticipated issues popping up, and if the replacement unit was $700, that's pretty cheap in the world of avionics repair. Not saying that it's good, but I'm not sure that this is really a sign that the unit is problematic.

DO-160 and DO-178 testing that the Aspen had to go through does typically give you a good baseline for a quality product. However, by no means does it ensure that every possible scenario has been accounted for.
 
So you're saying in electronics, the certification process adds little value? ;) ;) ;)
 
So you're saying in electronics, the certification process adds little value? ;) ;) ;)

Not at all. It adds a good amount of value. My cell phone, for instance, couldn't pass DO-160 or DO-178 certification for a lot of reasons. Of course, it wasn't intended to, either.

However, there is no certification process in the world that will account for every conceivable situation. That is important to remember.

Whether the cost of certification is appropriate to the value it adds is another question. Personally, I know how I'd do a plane I built from scratch - and it wouldn't involve any certified components. However, it would involve enough redundancy to allow for failures.
 
I seem to recall that you've had a few other issues with your Aspen, Steve, but maybe I could be recalling incorrectly. I prefer not to be a first adopter of any technology, simply to give it a few years for them to work at least some of the bugs out.

I knew going in there would be some teething problems (I was told I got one of the first 200 units installed). The company did delay delivery after their initial product announcement. I optimisticaly expected that time was used to refine the product prior to release and were given assurances by the company that was the case. Up to this point the company had been willing to address the issues identified in the field with a "we'll make it right" attitude. With this latest issue I get the impression they now are taking a different approach, one which will erode customer loyalty (at least mine). In my opinion the failures I've experienced, including this latest one, are directly related to design and construction, not end use, which indicates the item is still in development and for which the company should be responsible for correcting, not the end user. It shouldn't take 5 units in 4 years to arrive at a long term solution. I wouldn't guarantee more recently acquired units are exempt from this latest problem (the indicated airspeed at rest). I've been working through my avionics shop as the issues have been identfied and they have been extremely supportive. I should also say they probably don't need carry the Aspen product to be profitable as they have a large client base which they serve well and the Aspen is a but small fraction of their business. I respect their patience in dealing with the continuing problems the Aspen units exhibit.

Sure the replacement costs are not enormous, but I spend at least an additional 3 hrs flight time and $250 in fuel costs, plus a day downtime for a shop visit to get each problem resolved (and in my situation a replacement unit takes two trips to the shop). That adds up over time and for a retail customer it is quite burdensome. The acquisition cost for the Aspen was lower relative to other offerings of similar capability, but they weren't exactly giving the units away either.

In fairness, most of the problems identified with my Aspen unit have been discoverd on the ground. I did have an earlier unit black out in flight, but with at least 2 levels of redundacy on my panel for airspeed, altitude, and heading the impact was minimal (one of reasons I had less concern about being an early adopter). I don't know if I could say that for a less well equipped airplane.

As far as hiding problems affecting re-sale value, I think that is dishonest and would rather accept the consequences of full disclosure. I can only discuss my own belief. Others may have adifferent opinion. I would not knowingly sell something that was misrepresented. A wink and a nod does not get problems fixed nor does it protect one from the consequences of failure.

Good luck with your installation, Ted. I'd like to see in person one day. It is a useful device in flight. I sincerely hope you do not have a similiar experience. I do know I'm not alone in mine. Maybe my expectations were set too high.
 
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Sadly these are not the only such reports I've heard from Aspen owners which is one of the reasons I went ahead with the Garmin for the extra dollars. That and the extra display real estate per display.

I never really cared for the design, it had heat issues from day one. You can only "Do what it takes" for so long. If you don't get the product squared away, you'll go broke servicing the old stuff for free.
 
We have had ours for about a year now, about 150 hours worth. We have had no real issues, other than the OAT readout, which I just compensate for. I had thought that the magnetic heading was off depending on which direction we were headed, but have since decided it is my whiskey compass that's erroneous. It works perfectly and is a great addition to the 430W and STEC 30 autopilot. The three of them work very harmoniously together.:D
 
However, there is no certification process in the world that will account for every conceivable situation. That is important to remember.

No but we're talking about an OAT gauge here. Not exactly rocket science to build one of those that works in the well-documented environment of a light aircraft... Or to "certify" it.

The other scenario given was "flight near lightning". Nope, no electronics engineers out there have any experience with that. Never been done. No possible way the FAA engineers could have any documentation about certifying something like that. ;)

See what I'm getting at here?

Certification is already adding orders of magnitude in costs to avionics these days and the FAA personnel are "free" in the process, so where does the cost come from?

Labs that are utilized raping the users of the certification system? What is it?

Someone's making a bloody fortune.

Whether the cost of certification is appropriate to the value it adds is another question. Personally, I know how I'd do a plane I built from scratch - and it wouldn't involve any certified components. However, it would involve enough redundancy to allow for failures.

Same here. Why doesn't the FAA allow non-certified in certificated aircraft as long as certain redundancy/system's planning and flight test requirements are met, just like Experimentals?

As I mentioned in another thread, the Experimentals are the beta testers. They have far more real-world hours behind the non-certified gear than any lab can ever hope to accrue.

Both Garmin and Aspen have had enough panel failures the NTSB said, "We now require you to tell us about those." What is NTSB finding and has FAA amended the certification process to cover the most common failures of this supposedly already-certified gear?
 
As we just got our Aspen installed, it'll be interesting to see what its reliability is like. Of the two people not on PoA I know personally who have them installed (both with well over 200 hours on their units), neither of them have had any issues. It's interesting to read about them on here.

.

fwiw, just checked the aircraft logbook

the first unit went in at 704 on the hobbs

4 units later i'm now at 1093 on the hobbs

i guess i should take solace in noting that the time in service for each unit increased for each succeeding installation---0, 25, 160, 204 (the first one was DOA at installation) maybe someone good a bayesian analysis can predict the next unit's expected service life
 
Certification is totally unrelated to reliability.

At the GA avionics level, you can get anything certified if you tick the right boxes, and anyway the box ticking is done by ... guess who .... the applicant ;)
 
Sadly these are not the only such reports I've heard from Aspen owners which is one of the reasons I went ahead with the Garmin for the extra dollars. That and the extra display real estate per display.

Interestingly, there was a survey (informal, but a good user base) at Beechtalk, and the failure rate on the G500 / G600 was not trivial, either. Hardly statistically-valid, but it appeared to me that a presumption that the Garmin boxes were more reliable might bear scrutiny.
 
I knew going in there would be some teething problems (I was told I got one of the first 200 units installed). The company did delay delivery after their initial product announcement. I optimisticaly expected that time was used to refine the product prior to release and were given assurances by the company that was the case. Up to this point the company had been willing to address the issues identified in the field with a "we'll make it right" attitude. With this latest issue I get the impression they now are taking a different approach, one which will erode customer loyalty (at least mine). In my opinion the failures I've experienced, including this latest one, are directly related to design and construction, not end use, which indicates the item is still in development and for which the company should be responsible for correcting, not the end user. It shouldn't take 5 units in 4 years to arrive at a long term solution.

Actually, I would say that at 5 years in the field, the unit is probably still in development for "getting it right." You're talking about a new unit by a new company, whereas Henning's Garmin cost more, but Garmin's been doing this stuff for a lot longer with many more units and therefore much more time in service.

Part of the reason why I'm comfortable adopting at this point in time is that, after ~5 years, I'd expect them to probably have most of the initial issues out. Your hobbs time with your units indicates that is probably true. And clearly not all units and installations have issues, given the experience of my friends.

I can't blame Aspen for their current attitude. I agree that it will erode customer loyalty, especially with the early adopters like you who have suffered through a lot with it. However, they have to keep their doors open.

I wouldn't guarantee more recently acquired units are exempt from this latest problem (the indicated airspeed at rest).

It would be interesting to see what happens with that. Mine indicates 0 at 0.

Sure the replacement costs are not enormous, but I spend at least an additional 3 hrs flight time and $250 in fuel costs, plus a day downtime for a shop visit to get each problem resolved (and in my situation a replacement unit takes two trips to the shop). That adds up over time and for a retail customer it is quite burdensome.

Absolutely. For me to go back to the avionics shop that installed mine is 4 hours round trip, so figure $1200 for fuel and maintenance costs, unless I can tie it in with a trip in that direction.

The acquisition cost for the Aspen was lower relative to other offerings of similar capability, but they weren't exactly giving the units away either.

While that is true, we evaluated the various options when we chose the options. To get the AI and HSI overhauled would end up costing probably about the same as it would cost to purchase the Aspen. In aviation money, it's pretty darn cheap.

In fairness, most of the problems identified with my Aspen unit have been discoverd on the ground. I did have an earlier unit black out in flight, but with at least 2 levels of redundacy on my panel for airspeed, altitude, and heading the impact was minimal (one of reasons I had less concern about being an early adopter). I don't know if I could say that for a less well equipped airplane.

I always believe redundancy is important (hence my preference in aircraft). The 310 has enough redundancy that I'm not worried about the Aspen going out. I'll still be able to complete my trip just fine.

As far as hiding problems affecting re-sale value, I think that is dishonest and would rather accept the consequences of full disclosure. I can only discuss my own belief. Others may have adifferent opinion. I would not knowingly sell something that was misrepresented. A wink and a nod does not get problems fixed nor does it protect one from the consequences of failure.

Agreed fully.

Good luck with your installation, Ted. I'd like to see in person one day. It is a useful device in flight. I sincerely hope you do not have a similiar experience. I do know I'm not alone in mine. Maybe my expectations were set too high.

I'm sure you'll see it in person at some point, Steve. I don't intend on that plane going away anytime soon.

These sorts of things are difficult to deal with. We want new technology, but the costs of it include us being beta testers. Having seen the OEM side, it is quite literally impossible to replicate the millions of hours of testing by the end users that have allowed products to improve in our industry over the course of decades. Although I personally like steam gauges for a lot of reasons, the reality is that glass is the way of the future. As we are still in its early years relatively speaking, we can expect more growing pains. I can't speak for Aspen, but I know that in my OEM experience, every effort is made to make a quality product. But there is only so much you can do.
 
No but we're talking about an OAT gauge here. Not exactly rocket science to build one of those that works in the well-documented environment of a light aircraft... Or to "certify" it.

That is correct. But we're not actually talking about an OAT gauge, we're talking about a unit that is OAT, IAS, ALT, VSI, HSI, AI, etc. all in one. That entire unit is being certified.

The other scenario given was "flight near lightning". Nope, no electronics engineers out there have any experience with that. Never been done. No possible way the FAA engineers could have any documentation about certifying something like that. ;)

Lightning tests are part of the DO-160 (environmental/electrical/fire) testing that the Aspen went through.

See what I'm getting at here?

Not really.

Certification is already adding orders of magnitude in costs to avionics these days and the FAA personnel are "free" in the process, so where does the cost come from?

Primarily DO-160 and DO-178 testing, writing test plans, writing test reports... there's a lot that goes into that.

Labs that are utilized raping the users of the certification system? What is it?

Someone's making a bloody fortune.

You clearly don't have any experience with the testing that is required for certification. I would recommend that you take a look at what is involved. It is very extensive, and requires some equipment that is typically very expensive to acquire or rent.

As I mentioned in another thread, the Experimentals are the beta testers. They have far more real-world hours behind the non-certified gear than any lab can ever hope to accrue.

Actually, all of us are the beta testers. Don't believe that, ask Steve.

Both Garmin and Aspen have had enough panel failures the NTSB said, "We now require you to tell us about those." What is NTSB finding and has FAA amended the certification process to cover the most common failures of this supposedly already-certified gear?

Remember that when something new is certified, the FAA has to learn about how to make a better product as well. I worked on DO-160F. Well, that means there was DO-160A through E previously. Each one had improvements over others, based on experience in the field.

You can think certification is worthless. I disagree, it has value. But, experimentals exist so that you can build something yourself if you believe that what's out there isn't to your liking. That may happen for me someday. Now where's my welder...
 
I understand all of those platitudes regurgitated from modern engineering test theory.

PFD failures are commonplace enough that there's special effort to document them by the NTSB.

Accomplishments talk. Labs full of expensive test gear that do tests that didn't actually add to the quality or reduce the failure rate of the product, walk.

You're arguing that the process works while regaling us with stories of hardware failure. Do you not see that? Have we all lost our ability to think critically?

Assume I've never tested electronic products in a "must not fail" environment, if you like. I've done it. No stranger to expensive shake-and-bake machines here. What I found by getting OUT of the labs and in front of customers in the real world, was that the tests were expensive and often flawed.

What I also learned was that certification tests often were significantly flawed but required by bureaucracy, not because they added any real value to the product, but because they added *perceived* value.

An example might be NEBS compliance for telecom gear. Sounds great on paper, it'll keep an un-manned Central Office from burning to the ground in theory. In practice, the gear fails and shuts down long before concrete blockhouse buildings and their contents burn.

But everyone had to have it and it adds significant cost to the products and takes time and resources away from actually making the product better in almost all cases.

Apparently since PFDs are failing quite regularly, whatever FAA tests make one "Certified" vs. "Non-Certified" are similar.
 
You're arguing that the process works while regaling us with stories of hardware failure. Do you not see that? Have we all lost our ability to think critically?

No, but perhaps we've lost our ability to read. I didn't say it worked perfectly, I said it has value. I also said that if I were to build my own plane, I wouldn't place a big value on certified products in my plane.

So I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion that I think the current certification process "works" by your definition, which I take to mean "ensures no failures in use." No test will do that.

What I found by getting OUT of the labs and in front of customers in the real world, was that the tests were expensive and often flawed.
Absolutely correct. Which is why I say it has value, but isn't be-all-end-all. And no test is going to be. To say that it has no value because it's not a be-all-end-all I think is pretty foolish, though.

What I also learned was that certification tests often were significantly flawed but required by bureaucracy, not because they added any real value to the product, but because they added *perceived* value.
And this is a surprise to you how? The FARs are written in blood, remember.

Apparently since PFDs are failing quite regularly, whatever FAA tests make one "Certified" vs. "Non-Certified" are similar.
What it tells me is that there are some meaningful tests that are missing at this point. This doesn't surprise me, given the fact that the certification tests have evolved over decades for the sorts of equipment that have gone through that testing.
 
So I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion that I think the current certification process "works" by your definition, which I take to mean "ensures no failures in use." No test will do that.

Absolutely correct. Which is why I say it has value, but isn't be-all-end-all. And no test is going to be. To say that it has no value because it's not a be-all-end-all I think is pretty foolish, though.

I've never said "no failures" nor have I said (other than in jest -- trying to get a rise out of folks) "no" value.

My concern is that it's LITTLE value right now. Which seems to be proven by this statement...

What it tells me is that there are some meaningful tests that are missing at this point. This doesn't surprise me, given the fact that the certification tests have evolved over decades for the sorts of equipment that have gone through that testing.

Now little value would be FINE with me, as I've also stated, if it were CHEAP. But when manufacturers are hollering that FAA Certification adds 10X costs to their processes...

Something's not right.

As far as the FAR's being written in blood, yup... and anti-collision lights are brighter and designed to be left on almost all of the time in modern Certificated aircraft... but you go looking for an LED light to put in an older aircraft and the manufacturer says $230. For a light bulb. When you say "Why?" they say, "FAA Certification".

Somehow that doesn't seem to match the overall goal of higher safety.

The thread actually started by asking if maintenance should change. I think we covered that one... as long as the INSPECTION process stays intact, turning a wrench can be done by anyone. They'll have to choose if they want to do it, or pay someone with training to do it, but the aircraft must still be INSPECTED when they're done.

The side-topic we went down is the replacement part issue. FAA offered me a checkbox on my FAA e-mail preferences to get "Alerts about illegal parts" or something like that. They're taking the PMA process very seriously -- I can see that. I'm questioning on these older aircraft where the original part was a piece of trash from the farm supply store a few miles outside of Wichita, whether the process is getting newer tech into older airplanes to add to their safety and reliability, or if it's thwarting that effort by making it hideously expensive to purchase that new tech.
 
Interestingly, there was a survey (informal, but a good user base) at Beechtalk, and the failure rate on the G500 / G600 was not trivial, either. Hardly statistically-valid, but it appeared to me that a presumption that the Garmin boxes were more reliable might bear scrutiny.
Correct.

The G500 had a slightly lower level of long-term unresolved issues than the Aspen, but this could be due to various factors not surveyed e.g. the much higher average spend on the G is going to make the owner get a lot more pro-active (nasty, perhaps :) ) with the installer, and insisting on a resolution.

Or, the higher spend might be a motivation for the owner to keep the issues private, because few want to publicise problems on something they spent so much on.

But to be fair to Garmin, they probably have a lot more experience building this stuff than Aspen. The G1000 has - to date - proved considerably more reliable than old-style EFIS avionics (e.g. the Honeywell EFIS-40).

The difficulty of getting a G500 issue sorted out when you are miles from nowhere, relative to separate instruments, is another matter..... and not one that bothers most American pilots, most of whom seem to have a G dealer pretty close :)
 
The difficulty of getting a G500 issue sorted out when you are miles from nowhere, relative to separate instruments, is another matter..... and not one that bothers most American pilots, most of whom seem to have a G dealer pretty close :)

Perhaps, however I've noticed that a lot of avionics shops have their clients come from a long ways away here in the states. The shop that did my Aspen install was about 400 nm away from home base. It's not uncommon for people to fly several hours to go to their preferred shop vs. the closest shop.
 
I don't know if this is universal but I was looking at some Garmin AML STCs the other day and all were restricted to an installation by Authorised Garmin Dealers only.

The FAA now checks STC ownership, too, on 337 applications where an STC is included in the Approved Data.

I guess they don't check whether the avionics shop submitting the 337 is an authorised Garmin dealer also, which is just as well.

Here in Europe, this practice would IMHO be illegal - if anybody ever raised it to a high profile to be noticed. Because Garmin can entirely arbitrarily appoint (or de-appoint) their authorised dealers, it amounts to being able to set up sole agencies for your products, which has been illegal in the EU for many years.

Why do people in the USA travel so far for avionics installs? Is it because most installers are substandard? I have no idea, but that is definitely the case in Europe. Here in the UK, there are only 1 or 2 who I would trust to do any major work, and even then I would carefully check that specific individuals are closely involved.

The impression we get here is that the USA offers far more choice of competent installers than Europe, and anybody importing an airplane from the USA is most strongly advised to get every possible piece of work done in the USA, before the transport flight out of there.
 
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I don't know if this is universal but I was looking at some Garmin AML STCs the other day and all were restricted to an installation by Authorised Garmin Dealers only.

The FAA now checks STC ownership, too, on 337 applications where an STC is included in the Approved Data.

I guess they don't check whether the avionics shop submitting the 337 is an authorised Garmin dealer also, which is just as well.

Here in Europe, this practice would IMHO be illegal - if anybody ever raised it to a high profile to be noticed. Because Garmin can entirely arbitrarily appoint (or de-appoint) their authorised dealers, it amounts to being able to set up sole agencies for your products, which has been illegal in the EU for many years.

Why do people in the USA travel so far for avionics installs? Is it because most installers are substandard? I have no idea, but that is definitely the case in Europe. Here in the UK, there are only 1 or 2 who I would trust to do any major work, and even then I would carefully check that specific individuals are closely involved.

The impression we get here is that the USA offers far more choice of competent installers than Europe, and anybody importing an airplane from the USA is most strongly advised to get every possible piece of work done in the USA, before the transport flight out of there.
Avionics installation costs vary considerably from shop to shop as does the quality of work. There are three avionics shops at my home base but they are all quite a bit more expensive than the places (50-200 nm away) that I ended up going to. In one case (major upgrades) the difference was more than $10,000. I do often end up using two of the local shops for avionics maintenance and smaller installation jobs (e.g. transponder replacement) because the potential cost savings of a remote shop aren't worth the cost and hassle of a long distance relationship.
 
Why do people in the USA travel so far for avionics installs? Is it because most installers are substandard? I have no idea, but that is definitely the case in Europe. Here in the UK, there are only 1 or 2 who I would trust to do any major work, and even then I would carefully check that specific individuals are closely involved.

Lance hit it, but that's pretty much how it is. There are a lot of people who are authorized to do something, but finding the combination of good cost and high quality is difficult. Even spending $1,000 a trip on a lot of avionics work can be well worth the savings.

The impression we get here is that the USA offers far more choice of competent installers than Europe, and anybody importing an airplane from the USA is most strongly advised to get every possible piece of work done in the USA, before the transport flight out of there.

That is probably the case, as there is much more GA activity here, and there are more shops. But that doesn't mean that you can just go to any shop and get good work done for a reasonable price. I'm fortunate that I can get my airframe work done locally for a good price, but the avionics work I have to travel to another airport for no matter what. I have one shop I go to for my autopilot work, and another one for other avionics work. The two shops are (sadly) in opposite directions.
 
The thread actually started by asking if maintenance should change. I think we covered that one... as long as the INSPECTION process stays intact, turning a wrench can be done by anyone. They'll have to choose if they want to do it, or pay someone with training to do it, but the aircraft must still be INSPECTED when they're done.

There is no change required for the above scenario. It has been that way for decades, I don't think it was ever not that way. It's called "Working Under the Supervision of" and it's how owner maintenance happens right now. You do the work and an A&P inspects it and signs it off.
 
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