Asking for input - thinking of a flight

[Everskyward]

I bet they would be required to report it to TSA though.... Then some moron decides to put you on the "No Fly" list...

They check you out before you ever set foot in their classroom. Non US citizens have even more paperwork to go through. They get many foreign customers. Sometimes the non-US customers outnumber the US customers in class.

 

[Henning]

I read the OP and only a few of the replies. If I had to be at the conference on time (maybe presenting), and I didn't have my IFR rating, I'd plan to travel on a commercial carrier, maybe not the last flight possible.

My personal rule as a VFR pilot was never count on getting anywhere at any particular time.

Even the notion of a scheduled airlines is something of a misnomer. If I book a flight on the 2:48 PM flight out of XYZ, that means a late afternoon/early evening departure if you get to the airport a little after lunch. Beween 2 and 3 may have some relevancy, the 8 minutes is a joke.

He is not at high risk of having bad weather, but you are correct, which is why he already has a round trip ticket on the smoker in his pocket. At this point though, we're coming into the best "flying weather" part of the year between the coast and the mountains, and you can always go down underneath and fly out into the the desert through the passes. That's what's nice in most of California and the SW, you run into very few days that aren't flyable outside winter, and even that's mostly flyable.

I say do it even if it isn't practical. You have a commercial ticket in you pocket, so the worst you have to be out is some money and inconvenience fetching the plane later. But hey, that's part of the risk we sign up for when we sign up on GA. If you don't take a chance, then you will find little utility in having a pilots license. Most likely you'll make this just fine and you will figure out, "Damn, I need a faster plane with two engines." and do I have the girl for you...

 

[onwards]

He is not at high risk of having bad weather, but you are correct, which is why he already has a round trip ticket on the smoker in his pocket. At this point though, we're coming into the best "flying weather" part of the year between the coast and the mountains, and you can always go down underneath and fly out into the the desert through the passes. That's what's nice in most of California and the SW, you run into very few days that aren't flyable outside winter, and even that's mostly flyable.

I say do it even if it isn't practical. You have a commercial ticket in you pocket, so the worst you have to be out is some money and inconvenience fetching the plane later. But hey, that's part of the risk we sign up for when we sign up on GA. If you don't take a chance, then you will find little utility in having a pilots license. Most likely you'll make this just fine and you will figure out, "Damn, I need a faster plane with two engines." and do I have the girl for you...

We are lucky for the weather. And yes, that's sort of why I was thinking about it - just try it, you know? sounds like an interesting flight (for me), a bit of a challenge but not too much of a stretch considering the time of the year when I'll be trying it, thus providing a perfect learning opportunity. I wouldn't dare to do it in November! it sort of seems like the "perfect excuse" to do something pretty cool.

I do know for certain that I want someone to go with me. I need the company along the way, and another pair of eyes surely won't hurt. So if my friends bows out, I am definitely not doing it this way. But if he does come... could be a terrific experience.

And Henning, I saw your plane and that it was for sale, and boy, do I wish I could afford it! but I can't. I could maybe buy a $50K plane (well, OK, I could), but not this.

It is a very nice plane, though.

 

[Artiom]

I'm planning trip to Vegas next month and choose this route KRHV L05 KHND. It is only 18nm longer then direct flight but puts me over inhabitated area with a lots of airports along the route. There are some restricted areas but most of them are Mon-Fri and I'm planning weekend trip. For the rest I hope to get cleared cleared to cross or will have to fly around. KCCR KHND direct is 353nm and dogleg over L05 is 381nm. Something to consider IMO. 28nm extra to avoid high terrain and dessert. Another thing to consider is if the place where you rent has C182 get high performance checkout and fly 30nm/h faster
Takes only hour or two to get it done.

 

[Henning]

We are lucky for the weather. And yes, that's sort of why I was thinking about it - just try it, you know? sounds like an interesting flight (for me), a bit of a challenge but not too much of a stretch considering the time of the year when I'll be trying it, thus providing a perfect learning opportunity. I wouldn't dare to do it in November! it sort of seems like the "perfect excuse" to do something pretty cool.

I do know for certain that I want someone to go with me. I need the company along the way, and another pair of eyes surely won't hurt. So if my friends bows out, I am definitely not doing it this way. But if he does come... could be a terrific experience.

And Henning, I saw your plane and that it was for sale, and boy, do I wish I could afford it! but I can't. I could maybe buy a $50K plane (well, OK, I could), but not this.

It is a very nice plane, though.

You will find that if you want to fly, you will spend 90% of your time solo (unless you have captives like children lol). I started flying an Arrow with 41.5 the day I got my PP. The next day I finished my checkout and flew it from Long Beach to St. Louis & Fort Wayne IN Solo. I lost both Nav radios over the Grand Canyon and the ADF was INOP. I called ATC and told them "Hey, I've lost my nav radios. I'm fine to find Alamosa without them, but if it looks like I'm gonna bust somebodies airspace and have a problem would you give me a shout?" "Sure, we can do that. Would you like vectors to Alamosa?" "Sure" "Come about 5 left and we'll start there..." When I stopped in Alamosa for fuel they told me to keep my squawk and call them when I was airborn and they took me all the way in to Spirit of St. Louis. Just go. Go... You ain't gonna have any fun if you don't just go. The only way possible to justify having the license is use it as frequently as possible. There is no better way to travel. It's so relaxed. Solo is nice because you have no one else to be responsible for, you can kick back and suck in the view, and it is a view. That is the only thing that makes GA worth the money to me, the views I get.

 

[onwards]

I'm planning trip to Vegas next month and choose this route KRHV L05 KHND. It is only 18nm longer then direct flight but puts me over inhabitated area with a lots of airports along the route. There are some restricted areas but most of them are Mon-Fri and I'm planning weekend trip. For the rest I hope to get cleared cleared to cross or will have to fly around. KCCR KHND direct is 353nm and dogleg over L05 is 381nm. Something to consider IMO. 28nm extra to avoid high terrain and dessert. Another thing to consider is if the place where you rent has C182 get high performance checkout and fly 30nm/h faster
Takes only hour or two to get it done.

That is excellent feedback - and I like that route. Seems like I may want to take the more challenging route on the way there, when I have plenty of buffer on daylight, and take the more relaxed route through Kern on the way back, when time is of no concern but I will likely fly partly at night. Plus this way I get two different routes!

 

[Henning]

That is excellent feedback - and I like that route. Seems like I may want to take the more challenging route on the way there, when I have plenty of buffer on daylight, and take the more relaxed route through Kern on the way back, when time is of no concern but I will likely fly partly at night. Plus this way I get two different routes!

Why would you choose a 'more challeging" route? You always take the safest route available, especially if the difference is time spent over unsurvivable terrain. 172s do not stand up to to much "challenge" in the mountains.

 

[Artiom]

I second Henning. Why take a chance if you have safer alternative?

 

[Artiom]

Especially if you are planning to fly back at night I think it is better to fly the same route during the day to get familiar with it.

 

[Henning]

Especially if you are planning to fly back at night I think it is better to fly the same route during the day to get familiar with it.

Doesn't help, not unless you are intimately familiar with the area. Maybe if you spend the flight inputting the exact waypoints of landable spaces.

 

[Artiom]

Doesn't help, not unless you are intimately familiar with the area. Maybe if you spend the flight inputting the exact waypoints of landable spaces.

I like to fly during daytime over the area I will be going over at night. Im not a digital recorder but I can get an idea of the terrain below and what to expect in case I loose thrust in flight. I haven't done much night flying because I believe it should be done in twin. Single engine leaves you not too many options when it quits at night.

 

[Henning]

I like to fly during daytime over the area I will be going over at night. Im not a digital recorder but I can get an idea of the terrain below and what to expect in case I loose thrust in flight.

Still doesn't do a heck of a lot of good because it's the details that get you "Where was that tree?" "I know there's some powerlines here somewhere..." If you can't reference where they all are, it's not much help to have a glancing familiarity.

 

[onwards]

Why would you choose a 'more challeging" route? You always take the safest route available, especially if the difference is time spent over unsurvivable terrain. 172s do not stand up to to much "challenge" in the mountains.

Well, I mean, um... you see... it's the whole thing about being, ah...

Male.

*huge grin*

More seriously, I'd simply like to try the Fresno route too (for the views if nothing else), just not when I have a danger of darkness or bad winds to add stress to the situation. On the way out there, I expect to hit it early evening on a midsummer day, which would seem like a good time to give it a shot. If I end up not liking it, I can always turn back, refuel at Fresno, then head down to Bakersfield and cross there.

On the way back, having a route with no danger whatsoever of running into something at 12K feet makes me very happy. The Shafter VOR would appear to come in handy for this purpose, even if the GPS dies (like it did on another flight I took over unfamiliar mountain territory).

 

[onwards]

Doesn't help, not unless you are intimately familiar with the area. Maybe if you spend the flight inputting the exact waypoints of landable spaces.

I will in fact attempt to use GPS in exactly this manner. Not too many would be required, either. On the Fresno route, I'll need Fresno, Mammoth, and then Las vegas. On the way out maybe Shoshone, Trona, and Bakersfield.

 

[onwards]

Still doesn't do a heck of a lot of good because it's the details that get you "Where was that tree?" "I know there's some powerlines here somewhere..." If you can't reference where they all are, it's not much help to have a glancing familiarity.

Yeah. I second that. At this point in my flying life, if I have an engine failure at night, and I can't find a runway within striking distance, I honestly think my chances of emerging alive are very small. Such is life; I'm sure it will get better over time if I manage to stay alive.

it's also why flying at 12K feet at night over the route from Fresno or Bakersfield to CCR is comfortable; if I experience failure then, I have about 20 minutes to get somewhere at 68kn, or about 15-18 sm. There will very likely be a runway within striking distance.

 

[Henning]

Yeah. I second that. At this point in my flying life, if I have an engine failure at night, and I can't find a runway within striking distance, I honestly think my chances of emerging alive are very small. Such is life; I'm sure it will get better over time if I manage to stay alive.

it's also why flying at 12K feet at night over the route from Fresno or Bakersfield to CCR is comfortable; if I experience failure then, I have about 20 minutes to get somewhere at 68kn, or about 15-18 sm. There will very likely be a runway within striking distance.

Once you clear the western ridge, there are more runways than you can shake a stick at, east of there, things are different....

If it's all gone wrong and you're gliding into into the dark, you trim it all the way up, slow down to final approach speed, turn on the landing lights and be ready to think quick. It's not an impossible situation, just an extremely bad one. Minimize your energy, keep flying it till it stops and try to minimize the angle at which you quit flying.

 

[onwards]

If it's all gone wrong and you're gliding into into the dark, you trim it all the way up, slow down to final approach speed, turn on the landing lights and be ready to think quick. It's not an impossible situation, just an extremely bad one. Minimize your energy, keep flying it till it stops and try to minimize the angle at which you quit flying.

And be ready to turn off the battery and shut off the fuel just before impact, let's not forget that... I do know the theory, but I'd much rather never have to put it to practice, yaknow? that's a good tip about minimizing the angle on impact.

 

[Henning]

And be ready to turn off the battery and shut off the fuel just before impact, let's not forget that... I do know the theory, but I'd much rather never have to put it to practice, yaknow? that's a good tip about minimizing the angle on impact.

DON'T YOU DARE!!! Do not become distracted with trivial matters. If you haven't secured fuel yet, f- it. Don't kill the master because you'll kill the landing and taxi light and you need that to crash the plane best you can. The only thing you do is when the lights start hitting something, crack your door, that's it. From that point on you have one concern and one concern alone and that is putting the machine you are operating exactly where you want it and at the energy state you want it, that's it. Oh yeah, look where you want to go, do NOT look at what you want to avoid, just where you want to go. Once you know where the object to avoid is, ignore it.

Also, never try to "save the airplane". Don't try to stretch a glide to make a runway. Every year there's several people die stalling out trying to stretch it when they had survivable options. It's amazing how survivable small airplanes are as long as the energy is managed properly and the plane is kept under control and impact angles are minimized.

 

[onwards]

DON'T YOU DARE!!! Do not become distracted with trivial matters. If you haven't secured fuel yet, f- it.

When should I do it, then? it's what my instructor told me to do - hit the shutoff switch before impact.

Don't kill the master because you'll kill the landing and taxi light and you need that to crash the plane best you can.

Yeah, I failed basic grammar... I meant the battery after I land to minimize the chance of fire...

The only thing you do is when the lights start hitting something, crack your door, that's it.

Cool. I'll remember that!

Also, never try to "save the airplane". Don't try to stretch a glide to make a runway. Every year there's several people die stalling out trying to stretch it when they had survivable options. It's amazing how survivable small airplanes are as long as the energy is managed properly and the plane is kept under control and impact angles are minimized.

That is, again, very valuable advice. I appreciate it all. Thank you Henning!

 

[Henning]

When should I do it, then? it's what my instructor told me to do - hit the shutoff switch before impact.

When you secure the engine, any time but the last minute. Last minute has only one concern and do not become distracted or deluded by hope. Stare at the clearest smothest spot you can find, of the densest most even set of tree tops, or whatever it is that you picked out and you keep everything nice and stable and smooth all the way into and through that spot.

That is, again, very valuable advice. I appreciate it all. Thank you Henning!

You learn a few things when you clean up wrecks, especially your own.

 

[Artiom]

Henning, he is not planning to crash as far as I know. Stop scaring s-t out of fresh pilots like onwards and myself .

 

[pericynthion]

Henning, he is not planning to crash as far as I know. Stop scaring s-t out of fresh pilots like onwards and myself .

It's useful, potentially lifesaving advice. Flying is about taking informed risks and hedging against them where you can, not sticking your head in the sand! :wink2:

 

[Henning]

Henning, he is not planning to crash as far as I know. Stop scaring s-t out of fresh pilots like onwards and myself .

Well, you can stick your head in the sand, or you can have a plan. S-t happens, so it's good to be a little scared..., it helps keep ideas in your forethought.

 

[onwards]

Thanks again everyone for the input.

So let's say you drilled some sense into me, and I am revising my plan to go south and head east a bit north of Bakersfield. Maybe fly along and over lake Isabella (sure to be a pretty sight) before heading pretty much straight east to Vegas.

This brings me to the following question, directed at those of you with experience flying in, under and over MOA and restricted airspace: any tips? looks like I'll be crossing multiples of them - either Porterville or Bakersfield MOA, then Isabella MOA, then R-2505 or R-2506, possibly R-2524, Panamint MOA, and Shoshone MOA before getting there.

 

[pericynthion]

You can often get cleared through those R-s. Opinions differ on whether it's a good idea to plough through an active MOA - if you do, keep your head on a swivel. But they may not be active, so check with flight service beforehand and center / Joshua Approach in flight. Last time I went that way they let me go right through most of those restricted areas, and on the way back I got to fly directly overhead Edwards. Pretty cool.

 

[dell30rb]

Thank you. Do you mind giving me a bit more info on your comment? it would seem to me that I would be past the mountains around 8:30PM - more or less the beginning of civil twilight - and into pretty flat terrain (and also one that I am familiar with, having flown it at day and night). Where am I going wrong?

EDIT: just double-checked - it's more like 2 hours. So I'd have to leave 630PM instead of 7PM to make the above valid, I think.

There is a book called "night flying in single engine airplanes" by paul garrison. Printed in the early 80's. The author flew in that area alot and had some good stories/ advice on the topic. You can find the book used, online for about 6 bucks.

Another one by the same author is "VFR flying in marginal weather"

Good books with very practical advice.

Buying refundable tickets (or ticket insurance that covers you) is an excellent idea. Takes some pressure off the go/no go decision.

 

[onwards]

You can often get cleared through those R-s. Opinions differ on whether it's a good idea to plough through an active MOA - if you do, keep your head on a swivel. But they may not be active, so check with flight service beforehand and center / Joshua Approach in flight. Last time I went that way they let me go right through most of those restricted areas, and on the way back I got to fly directly overhead Edwards. Pretty cool.

So... let's assume I'm on with oakland center leaving CCR, and ask for following. At some point they will presumably hand me off to LA center. Obviously they will know that I intend to head to Vegas. Presumably they will accompany me through the MOA's, since the chart says they are the controlling agency for those.

But looking at the chart further, I have to ask Joshua approach for clearance through (say) 2505. How is that handled in flight? do they hand me off to JoshApp like they would on flying through non-special-use? I've never flown through restricted airspaces, and while I think I know what to do, I'd love practical hints and tips on what to expect.

Also, and this is a really dumb question, but what is the proper way to ask for clearance through an R? is it like going through a class bravo?

 

[Sac Arrow]

So... let's assume I'm on with oakland center leaving CCR, and ask for following. At some point they will presumably hand me off to LA center. Obviously they will know that I intend to head to Vegas. Presumably they will accompany me through the MOA's, since the chart says they are the controlling agency for those.

But looking at the chart further, I have to ask Joshua approach for clearance through (say) 2505. How is that handled in flight? do they hand me off to JoshApp like they would on flying through non-special-use? I've never flown through restricted airspaces, and while I think I know what to do, I'd love practical hints and tips on what to expect.

Also, and this is a really dumb question, but what is the proper way to ask for clearance through an R? is it like going through a class bravo?

You will be with Oakland Center until you get in to the mountains and leave their radar picture, at which point they will drop you, and there won't be anyone to hand you off to. You probably won't get radar service until you approach Vegas.

Planning a route through a restricted area is normally a waste of time in my experience. You can call the controlling agency and request transit but they may not give you one unless you called them and obtained prior permission. Which, you may or may not get depending on the activities going on in the restricted area. The phraseology would be something like this:

"Joshua Approach, Cessna XXXX is a C172 slant golf approximately 25 NM East of Porterville Airport, level 10,500 feet, request transit through restricted area 2505 to VGT."

 

[pericynthion]

You may or may not get handed off to Joshua, depending on your route and altitude. Ask whoever you're talking to about transiting the restricted airspace somewhere around 50 miles beforehand - they may say yes, no, or give you another freq to ask on.
And yes, treat it pretty much like Bravo. Need a clearance to enter, obey instructions while within.
I wouldn't rely on penetrating any restricted areas that you don't know to be inactive. Treat it as a bonus. But you usually won't get it unless you ask.

 

[onwards]

Fair enough. So that means that route is out too, unless...

How hard is, in reality, to slot between 2524 and 2505? head east to Koehr lake (Im sure its pretty visible), then straight line NE to Searles lake (also appears that it would be quite visible), north when you're over the lake to Trona, then east. Is there a particular reason to think this is not doable?

 

[pericynthion]

Very doable. I would recommend a GPS though if you're not very comfortable with your pilotage. With a GPS that depicts the airspace, it's a no-brainer. If you have a GPS that doesn't show the airspace boundaries then program it with some carefully checked user waypoints to guide you through the gap.

Last time I went that way, I turned east around Eckert (1Q1) and crossed the Sierras there, and was about to go north, all the way around R-2505 and pass by Trona, when I was unexpectedly cleared through R-2505. I think I was with Joshua Approach at the time, not sure. I'm not saying that route is any better than the one you're proposing - the hills are higher - but it's the one that I took.

Don't overthink it too much. Allow yourself extra fuel and time, and be adaptable.