Ask for ID

[sba55]

I think it's just funny that people feel happy if some clerk quickly glances over their ID. What is that supposed to do? They're not qualified to check IDs, and they're not supposed to ask. And you - as the customer - isn't liable for fraud. All the CC companies talking about how some onerous policy is "for your protection" are lying to you. It's for their protection and it inconveniences me.

In this particular case, just fill out this quick form here:

http://www.mastercard.us/support/merchant-violations.html

and check the "The merchant required ID" box. It's amazing what that can do!

 

[Dr. O]

There I was, happily bopping South down I75 in February watching the icicles on my nose melt off as I pass below the freezing line and buying lots of diesel fuel because I am pulling 11,000 pounds of boat... I am at a gas station in the middle of nowhere florida, pumping diesel and the pump shuts off after a couple of gallons... Puzzled I ask the clerk what is going on - she looks at her console, shrugs, and says the credit card company is denying the charge...
I laugh, 'really!'...
She glares at me - I don't even manage to look look guilty, which only makes her more unhappy... "Whut cha gonna do?", she growls...
Oh, I've got more credit cards, I say... I give her one, she swipes it through and I go back to pumping... After I am back on the road I call the credit card company... Well, I try to call but the phone acts funny and suddenly I am talking to a guy named Ron right while I am trying to dial out...
Who's this, I say?
This is Ron at xxxx credit card company...
Hey, I was just trying to call you guys...
Well, I was just calling you, he says...
Hey Ron, my card shut down right in the middle of pumping gas, I say... (figure of speech)
Actually, it was diesel, he says, and yes the computer just did an emergency shut off on your card... The girls brought the shut down to my attention a minute ago... Is that really you, doc?
Yup, tis I Ron, the one and only...
Lets see, we show diesel charges from Michigan to Kentucky, to Georgia, then West coast Florida, then East coast Florida, then Miami, and now moving North up the center of the state...
I laugh... So, why is that suspicious?
Hey, you have been a card holder since 1980 (he gives me the thanks and grateful speech) and you have never had that pattern of purchasing... As soon as I saw it I thought some dude had nabbed your card and was on the run... The girls should have showed it to me a couple of days ago before the computer went spastic...
Nope, it's me Ron... I'm retired and you are going to see a lot of 'never before' patterns of charges...
OK doc, well I'm going to tell the computer that it is OK but if you decide to take off for Bermuda or something we would appreciate a heads up so we can give the computer a valium before it has another nervous breakdown...
Good deal Ron and thanks for looking out for me...

So, I don't have a problem showing ID to some clerk and I don't get religious fervor over my credit card - mostly because the card is not mine (read the fine print)... And I am happy that a Ron is watching the charge patterns... If I want anonymity I'll pay cash...

denny-o

 

[roncachamp]

I think it's just funny that people feel happy if some clerk quickly glances over their ID. What is that supposed to do?

It may stop someone other than the cardholder from using the card.

They're not qualified to check IDs, and they're not supposed to ask.

What are the qualifications for checking IDs?

 

[ron22]

What are the qualifications for checking IDs?

TSA Training of course

 

[jesse]

It may stop someone other than the cardholder from using the card.

They cannot refuse payment based on the card anyways, so it's a waste of time. It's also *highly* unlikely the clerk is going to get in a confrontation with someone because they think they don't look like the ID. Really it's just not effective. A *lot* of people look nothing like their IDs and clerks don't care.

Instead it suddenly requires that you might have to carry your ID along with your credit card which is ridiculous since that isn't required. It opens you open to additional identity theft. It delays the checkout process. etc. etc.

 

[roncachamp]

They cannot refuse payment based on the card anyways, so it's a waste of time.

They can refuse the card.

It's also *highly* unlikely the clerk is going to get in a confrontation with someone because they think they don't look like the ID.

Correct, refusing the card does not need to be confrontational.

 

[jesse]

They can refuse the card.



Correct, refusing the card does not need to be confrontational.

They cannot refuse a Visa, Mastercard, or American Express because the purchaser did not show them ID. If they choose to do so they're violating contract and will be fined. They'll also lose my business. I'm not the only one.

 

[roncachamp]

They cannot refuse a Visa, Mastercard, or American Express because the purchaser did not show them ID.

Don't be silly, of course they can.

If they choose to do so they're violating contract and will be fined.

By whom?

They'll also lose my business. I'm not the only one.

So they lose you and your ilk while gaining those that are glad some merchants are on the watch for fraudulent use of credit cards. I think they'll come out ahead.

 

[jesse]

Don't be silly, of course they can.



By whom?

Their merchant account provider for violating the terms of their contract. Not accepting a card because the customer won't show an ID is a violation of the contracts with Visa, Mastercard, and American Express. The credit card companies provide convenient forms for consumers to file complaints about merchants doing this. They can be fined. Or they might just jack their rates up as a penalty.

Have you not read any of this thread?

So they lose you and your ilk while gaining those that are glad some merchants are on the watch for fraudulent use of credit cards. I think they'll come out ahead.

I really doubt someone is going to choose to use a merchant because that merchant asks for IDs versus another merchant that doesn't. Instead that merchant will just be violating their contracts, ****ing off those that care about privacy, and costing themselves more money.

If I stole your wallet I have your card and your ID. If I didn't steal your wallet and I was capable of fabricating a credit card with your number then I can easily print an inkjet temporary drivers license like most states issue now. If I'm really afraid of a clerk asking me for an ID I'll just use your card on the internet or at gas pumps and steal your money anyways.

This is why the credit card companies prohibit it. It's fake security - like the TSA.

You feel that you should have to carry an ID to use your credit card even though the credit card companies say you do not have to do so? Our drivers licenses are not meant to be cards for anyone in the world to use for whatever purpose.

 

[EppyGA]

i'm pretty sure my credit union is that in name only. they have plenty of fees for crap and the interest rates ar no better than any other bank as best i can tell

I've belonged to the same credit union here in the Atlanta area for over 20 years and do not pay a cent in fees to them. I have three checking accounts, share account and a money market account as well as my home mortgage (10 year at 4 5/8), current rates are 3 3/8 for 7 or 10 years and a HELOC at 4%.

 

[AggieMike88]

This thread reinforces one of the many reasons why this guy's teachings are dead on...

 

[jesse]

This thread reinforces one of the many reasons why this guy's teachings are dead on...

I use credit cards for almost all my spending but I don't carry any debt on them. I pay them off fully each month.

There is no way Dave Ramsey is going to change my mind. Carrying cash around for everything is a hassle and a security issue. Paying for things with debit cards online is insane, IMO.

I lost my wallet. American Express sent me a new one next day air, had a new one in my hands the next morning. My Wells Fargo visa debt card took almost two weeks to get a replacement. No thanks. I'll use my American Express.

Dave Ramsey's teachings are not one size fits all. It works well if you've allowed yourself to get severely in debt. But those that think his teachings are the best for everyone are delusional.

And yes. I've bought his books and have read them.

 

[weilke]

Their merchant account provider for violating the terms of their contract. Not accepting a card because the customer won't show an ID is a violation of the contracts with Visa, Mastercard, and American Express. The credit card companies provide convenient forms for consumers to file complaints about merchants doing this. They can be fined. Or they might just jack their rates up as a penalty.

They also allow the merchant to ask for ID if the merchant believes that there is an elevated risk of fraud.

I really doubt someone is going to choose to use a merchant because that merchant asks for IDs versus another merchant that doesn't. Instead that merchant will just be violating their contracts, ****ing off those that care about privacy, and costing themselves more money.

Actually, it won't cost them money. It will save them on chargebacks from fraudulent transactions with shady characters. Most stolen ccs are used within hours of the theft, few crooks will go through the hassle of forging a matching ID.

 

[tonycondon]

This thread reinforces one of the many reasons why this guy's teachings are dead on...

Does his website still accept credit cards?

 

[jesse]

They also allow the merchant to ask for ID if the merchant believes that there is an elevated risk of fraud.

They are allowed to ask, but they are not allowed to refuse the transaction if the customer refuses to show them the ID.

Actually, it won't cost them money. It will save them on chargebacks from fraudulent transactions with shady characters. Most stolen ccs are used within hours of the theft, few crooks will go through the hassle of forging a matching ID.

It may or may not save them on charge backs, but it is most defiantly a practice that will cost them money as per their contract.

But what do I know...back to working on the PCI DSS.

 

[roncachamp]

Their merchant account provider for violating the terms of their contract. Not accepting a card because the customer won't show an ID is a violation of the contracts with Visa, Mastercard, and American Express. The credit card companies provide convenient forms for consumers to file complaints about merchants doing this. They can be fined. Or they might just jack their rates up as a penalty.

Ah, you meant "penalized", "fined" implies a penalty imposed by government for an offense or dereliction.

Have you not read any of this thread?

I must admit that I ignored most of the nonsensical input.

I really doubt someone is going to choose to use a merchant because that merchant asks for IDs versus another merchant that doesn't. Instead that merchant will just be violating their contracts, ****ing off those that care about privacy, and costing themselves more money.

I assure you, a merchant on the watch for fraudulent use of credit cards will not **** off any rational customers.

If I stole your wallet I have your card and your ID.

Yup. But you don't look like me, so you could only use my credit card with merchants that don't ask for the ID. Now, look above your head, is the light bulb starting to glow a bit?

 

[jesse]

Yup. But you don't look like me, so you could only use my credit card with merchants that don't ask for the ID.

The average cashier asking for credit cards is not paying enough attention to IDs. Where do you draw the line? Many people look *nothing* like their ID. Minors are constantly using older friends duplicate drivers licenses to buy alcohol. It works more times then it doesn't.

Now, look above your head, is the light bulb starting to glow a bit?

This is an area and an industry I know quite well. So if you could refrain from being yourself (I couldn't come up with a worse word) and possibly read a thread before you try and bash me with a comment like that, I'd greatly appreciate it.

 

[roncachamp]

This is an area and an industry I know quite well.

Many people believe they know a subject far better than they actually do. That appears to be the case here with you.

So if you could refrain from being a dick and possibly read a thread before you try and bash me with a comment like that, I'd greatly appreciate it.

Why is it some people cannot engage in discourse without resorting to name-calling? When you reach that point it's best to say nothing at all, just move on.

 

[jesse]

Many people believe they know a subject far better than they actually do. That appears to be the case here with you.



Why is it some people cannot engage in discourse without resorting to name-calling? When you reach that point it's best to say nothing at all, just move on.

Unlike some others that have wasted countless hours engaging in ridiculous discussions with you, I'm simply not willing to do it, you're right and you really understand this better than anyone. You are the one that started with the ridiculous attack. If you can't see that then, well, I can't help you.

With that. I now choose to ignore everything you post in this thread.

 

[roncachamp]

Unlike some others that have wasted countless hours engaging in ridiculous discussions with you, I'm simply not willing to do it, you're right and you really understand this better than anyone. You are the one that started with the ridiculous attack. If you can't see that then, well, I can't help you.

The only attack I saw in this discussion was you calling me a dick.

With that. I now choose to ignore everything you post in this thread.

A choice you should have made several posts earlier.

 

[AggieMike88]

Does his website still accept credit cards?

Unknown about CREDIT cards. The only transactions I've done via his site was by debit card.

@Jessie -- I concur it's not a one size fits everyone. But if you agree with a significant portion of what he has to say and operate by that, you're way ahead of the larger portion of the debt ridden herd.

 

[jesse]

@Jessie -- I concur it's not a one size fits everyone. But if you agree with a significant portion of what he has to say and operate by that, you're way ahead of the larger portion of the debt ridden herd.

Agree.

 

[tonycondon]

Unknown about CREDIT cards. The only transactions I've done via his site was by debit card.

@Jessie -- I concur it's not a one size fits everyone. But if you agree with a significant portion of what he has to say and operate by that, you're way ahead of the larger portion of the debt ridden herd.

my understanding is that you can't accept debit without accepting credit. visa is visa. so he says "don't use credit" but you still could if you want.

 

[timwinters]

Drivers license's have barcodes on them that can be scanned with a very portable scanner in an instant. How close do you watch them when they're holding your ID?

Actually, it never leaves my billfold. I have a flip out ID holder. If they ask for ID I simply I take out my billfold, flip out my DL, and hold it up for them. They hold the credit card up next to it, compare names and say "okay".

Allowed or not by their agreement w/the CC co's...it's just no big fizz.

But, I don't hand it to them nor would I. If they ask me to remove it from the holder I say no.

As an aside, I don't think MO licenses have barcodes. But I have a change of address label covering nearly the entire backside of mine right now so maybe it does and it's under there.

 

[tonycondon]

thanks to you guys, last night i had a dream about a clerk asking for my ID. sigh.

 

[Dr. O]

Well, bought another farm yesterday and now I'm deeper in debt - I hope you can eat foreclosure notices America, because that is what the cost of farming is producing faster than food...
( cue music: Ol Man RIver, that Ol Man River - you know the tune)

But I digress... Anyway, took the wife to the big city for a million dollar celebration supper at a fancy place (burger joint, fancy for us) and on the way back to the boonies stopped at an auto store to buy a deep cycle battery for the boat... At the checkout, remembering this thread, when the clerk asked for my DL I went into the spiel that their merchant agreement prohibits them from asking... The manager turned around and raised his eyebrows... The clerk gestured to his computer screen and said, It says I have to see it!

So what about federal regulations, I inquired...
The manager (a good guy actually) shrugged and in a chinese sing song impersonation said, No tickee, no washee!
We had a short discussion and their national chain office says every credit card transaction requires the clerk see some ID, no exceptions or he gets fired... I guess the big chains find reducing fraud losses will more than pay for the expenses of arguing with the CC companies or the government...

denny-o (dirt poor)

 

[weilke]

We had a short discussion and their national chain office says every credit card transaction requires the clerk see some ID, no exceptions or he gets fired... I guess the big chains find reducing fraud losses will more than pay for the expenses of arguing with the CC companies or the government...

There is no arguing with the cc processors. They know that they are a dime a dozen. If they started penalizing merchants for things like minimum charges, cash discounts or ID requirements, the decision-maker already has the pro-formas from three of their competitors on the table vying for the business.

 

[roncachamp]

Well, bought another farm yesterday and now I'm deeper in debt - I hope you can eat foreclosure notices America, because that is what the cost of farming is producing faster than food...
( cue music: Ol Man RIver, that Ol Man River - you know the tune)

But I digress... Anyway, took the wife to the big city for a million dollar celebration supper at a fancy place (burger joint, fancy for us) and on the way back to the boonies stopped at an auto store to buy a deep cycle battery for the boat... At the checkout, remembering this thread, when the clerk asked for my DL I went into the spiel that their merchant agreement prohibits them from asking... The manager turned around and raised his eyebrows... The clerk gestured to his computer screen and said, It says I have to see it!

So what about federal regulations, I inquired...
The manager (a good guy actually) shrugged and in a chinese sing song impersonation said, No tickee, no washee!
We had a short discussion and their national chain office says every credit card transaction requires the clerk see some ID, no exceptions or he gets fired... I guess the big chains find reducing fraud losses will more than pay for the expenses of arguing with the CC companies or the government...

denny-o (dirt poor)

Dirt poor? You were buying a battery for a boat. Only wealthy people have boats, everybody knows that.

 

[Jaybird180]

He said million dollar celebration

 

[jesse]

There is no arguing with the cc processors. They know that they are a dime a dozen. If they started penalizing merchants for things like minimum charges, cash discounts or ID requirements, the decision-maker already has the pro-formas from three of their competitors on the table vying for the business.

The fine will come down from Visa/Mastercard/American Express regardless of whom your merchant account provider or processor is. And yes..They do do it.

 

[jesse]

Well, bought another farm yesterday and now I'm deeper in debt - I hope you can eat foreclosure notices America, because that is what the cost of farming is producing faster than food...
( cue music: Ol Man RIver, that Ol Man River - you know the tune)

But I digress... Anyway, took the wife to the big city for a million dollar celebration supper at a fancy place (burger joint, fancy for us) and on the way back to the boonies stopped at an auto store to buy a deep cycle battery for the boat... At the checkout, remembering this thread, when the clerk asked for my DL I went into the spiel that their merchant agreement prohibits them from asking... The manager turned around and raised his eyebrows... The clerk gestured to his computer screen and said, It says I have to see it!

So what about federal regulations, I inquired...
The manager (a good guy actually) shrugged and in a chinese sing song impersonation said, No tickee, no washee!
We had a short discussion and their national chain office says every credit card transaction requires the clerk see some ID, no exceptions or he gets fired... I guess the big chains find reducing fraud losses will more than pay for the expenses of arguing with the CC companies or the government...

denny-o (dirt poor)

What store was this? Most likely they're doing this on any type of transaction (credit card or not) to capture personal information for marketing purposes. In my experience, when this happens, the clerk is usually misinterpreting what the computer screen is actually saying.

 

[weilke]

The fine will come down from Visa/Mastercard/American Express regardless of whom your merchant account provider or processor is. And yes..They do do it.

Now you made me look at my merchant agreement and the operating rules.

It actually lists 'refusal to provide photo-ID' as one of the red-flags that indicates a potentially fraudulent transaction.

Here is what I can't do:

Supplemental Identification - U.S. Region​

A U.S. Acquirer must

​

not, as a regular practice, require a Merchant, and a Merchant must not require a Cardholder, to provide any supplementary Cardholder information as a condition for honoring a Card or unless it is required or permitted elsewhere in the U.S. Regional Operating Regulations. Such supplementary Cardholder information includes, but is not limited to:​

Social Security Number (or any part thereof)​

Fingerprint​

Home or business address or telephone number​

Driver's license number​

Photocopy of a driver's license​

Photocopy of the Card​

Other credit cards​

There are also FTC rules that require me to verify your ID before extending credit to you. At all levels of the card agreements, it states that applicable law prevails over the agreement. So whatever they write in the agreement doesn't matter: no ID, no account (or 'no tikee, no washee' as it was expressed earlier)​

 

[jesse]

Now you made me look at my merchant agreement and the operating rules.

It actually lists 'refusal to provide photo-ID' as one of the red-flags that indicates a potentially fraudulent transaction.

Here is what I can't do:

Supplemental Identification - U.S. Region​

A U.S. Acquirer must

not, as a regular practice, require a Merchant, and a Merchant must not require a Cardholder, to provide any supplementary Cardholder information as a condition for honoring a Card or unless it is required or permitted elsewhere in the U.S. Regional Operating Regulations. Such supplementary Cardholder information includes, but is not limited to:​

Social Security Number (or any part thereof)​

Fingerprint​

Home or business address or telephone number​

Driver's license number​

Photocopy of a driver's license​

Photocopy of the Card​

Other credit cards​

There are also FTC rules that require me to verify your ID before extending credit to you. At all levels of the card agreements, it states that applicable law prevails over the agreement. So whatever they write in the agreement doesn't matter: no ID, no account (or 'no tikee, no washee' as it was expressed earlier)​

There are exceptions to everything. What type of business are you running? What do you mean require ID before extending credit?

Those terms make it pretty clear that in general you cannot require anything other then the card itself as a condition for accepting the card.

Now if you require personal information as a condition of sale, not as a condition of using the card, then you can do that (but not in all states). But if I can get the same product from you using cash without an ID then you're in violation.

 

[weilke]

There are exceptions to everything. What type of business are you running? What do you mean require ID before extending credit?

A medical practice. If I open a patient account and provide a service without immediate payment (e.g. the typical scenario where reimbursement will be from a third-party-payor), it is considered 'extending credit'.

Those terms make it pretty clear that in general you cannot require anything other then the card itself as a condition for accepting the card.

Yet those operating rules also require me to verify that the person presenting the card is an authorized user of the card and put the liability for fraudulent charges on me, the merchant.

But if I can get the same product from you using cash without an ID then you're in violation.

Not quite. If you pay me with cash, I have not extended credit to you. If I give you a good or service based on the promise that you will pay me in the future (e.g. through the agreed upon intermediary, in this case the cc system), I have extended credit to you. If I wish to verify that you are who you claim to be, it is a verification that I can (must) require independent from whatever the CC company says. Using a credit card is no different from taking a delivery on a shipment based on the promise that I will pay the bill for the goods received once it arrives.

 

[jesse]

A medical practice. If I open a patient account and provide a service without immediate payment (e.g. the typical scenario where reimbursement will be from a third-party-payor), it is considered 'extending credit'.

Fair enough. That wouldn't surprise me. I suspect you'll be asking for ID no matter what their method of payment is which is completely legit. The problem is just when merchants ask for the ID because it's a credit card transaction.

Yet those operating rules also require me to verify that the person presenting the card is an authorized user of the card and put the liability for fraudulent charges on me, the merchant.

I never said it was fair. There is also a lot of liability carried by your merchant account provider in-case you go belly up.

 

[Jaybird180]

Apples and Oranges. You're talking about opening a new credit account versus using a cc at a retail location.

 

[weilke]

Apples and Oranges. You're talking about opening a new credit account versus using a cc at a retail location.

How is that different ?

If I sell you something on credit card, I give you the merchandise today in return for a promise to pay next week. The only thing the cc company provides is the promise that they vetted any carrier of their cards and found them to be a good credit risk. I am still out for the merchandise on credit until the credit card account settles a couple of days or weeks later.

In the olden days, you needed a regular job and established credit to obtain a credit card. Having a credit card was a sign of financial good conduct. 'You pay with your good name' was one of the advertising slogans at the time, and to some extent that was true. Times have changed, all that a credit card means these days is that you had $250 to put down for a secured card a couple of days after your most recent bankruptcy was finalized.

 

[denverpilot]

I would ban credit cards entirely in my businesses, except for the fact that we often go many days now without seeing any cash. The cards rule the market now -- and they know it.

Yup.

(You replied to me and I didn't say anything about fraud at all, but okay. )

I'm curious. I'd use cash for a cash discount, but I hear that the card companies ban that practice if you agree to take their cards.

Is that true?

 

[jesse]

Yup.

(You replied to me and I didn't say anything about fraud at all, but okay. )

I'm curious. I'd use cash for a cash discount, but I hear that the card companies ban that practice if you agree to take their cards.

Is that true?

You can't charge someone a surchage over the normal price because they used a credit card, BUT, you can offer someone a "cash discount" for using cash. It's all in the words.

 

[weilke]

I'm curious. I'd use cash for a cash discount, but I hear that the card companies ban that practice if you agree to take their cards.

Is that true?

A merchant can give a cash-discount, it has to be the same for all credit cards and it has to be published in an appropriate manner. The merchant can also charge a 'conevenience fee' to pay by CC, again it has to be the same fee for all charge cards and it has to be published. I have seen the convenience fee mostly with utilities and municipal charges like parking tickets. If the ticket is $75, the county wants exactly $75.00 and not $71.50 because you paid with your Amex superfragilicious double rewards card.