Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
I haven't flown the turbo, but have a fair amount of time in the NA III. The NA feels fairly nose heavy without the turbo.
Arrow III landing question
- Thread starter jcc3inc
- Start date
AIRSPEED DOES NOT MATTER:
Airspeed does not affect the nosewheel thunk because the aircraft is designed to have stabilator authority well below the stall speed of the wing. This means that no matter what airspeed you touch down at, you will have enough stabilator authority to control the nosewheel touchdown. Kinetic forward energy does not bang the nosewheel down, its the kinetic energy of the nosewheel in the downward direction. Excessive nose-down kinetic energy is a function of the pilot NOT properly controlling the forward rotation induced after touchdown. In fact, the SLOWER you land an Arrow, the more likely you are to thunk the nose because the nose will be higher, the aircraft slower, stabilator authority reduced, and forward rotation on touchdown will happen faster.
A pilot with proper touchdown technique will only have to deal with excessive airspeed on the rollout AFTER landing, NOT on the touchdown. The sink rate a pilot has at the moment of touchdown is only affected by airspeed if they were taught to try and stall the plane onto the runway. Unless I'm mistaken, a landing consists of a pilot CONTROLLING the plane/runway meeting.
TRIM DOES NOT MATTER:
Trim has nothing to do with sink rate or the flare. It has everything to do with airspeed, and airspeed does not matter.
Nose-heavy is what a pilot calls a plane they can't land right yet. All aircraft have an operating W&B envelope that is fairly tight across all models and is designed to allow normal stall characteristics at the aft end and ensure control authority at the forward end. This is for all aircraft. If one aircraft "feels" nose heavy, it's really in the mind of the pilot.
Airspeed does not affect the nosewheel thunk because the aircraft is designed to have stabilator authority well below the stall speed of the wing. This means that no matter what airspeed you touch down at, you will have enough stabilator authority to control the nosewheel touchdown. Kinetic forward energy does not bang the nosewheel down, its the kinetic energy of the nosewheel in the downward direction. Excessive nose-down kinetic energy is a function of the pilot NOT properly controlling the forward rotation induced after touchdown. In fact, the SLOWER you land an Arrow, the more likely you are to thunk the nose because the nose will be higher, the aircraft slower, stabilator authority reduced, and forward rotation on touchdown will happen faster.
A pilot with proper touchdown technique will only have to deal with excessive airspeed on the rollout AFTER landing, NOT on the touchdown. The sink rate a pilot has at the moment of touchdown is only affected by airspeed if they were taught to try and stall the plane onto the runway. Unless I'm mistaken, a landing consists of a pilot CONTROLLING the plane/runway meeting.
TRIM DOES NOT MATTER:
Trim has nothing to do with sink rate or the flare. It has everything to do with airspeed, and airspeed does not matter.
Nose-heavy is what a pilot calls a plane they can't land right yet. All aircraft have an operating W&B envelope that is fairly tight across all models and is designed to allow normal stall characteristics at the aft end and ensure control authority at the forward end. This is for all aircraft. If one aircraft "feels" nose heavy, it's really in the mind of the pilot.
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dmccormack
Touchdown! Greaser!
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Dan Mc
Sorry, but a landing does not end when the mains contact earth.
If you fly a taildragger you'll a "landing" is an entire chain of events that isn't complete until the airplane is tied down.
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
Don't bait him Dan...judging by that post, I'd say he's a troll.
I hope you've read my posts on this thread. This has been my point all along. And yes, I fly taildraggers, too.
A troll? No, I'm not trolling. Just trying to dispel persistent misconceptions.
dmccormack
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Perhaps the perceptions are persistent because they're true.
For anyone else reading this thread, take a look at your landing gear and decide how stable that gear is at high speed (hint: not very).
The landing sequence starts on downwind and ends with the wheels chocked. Energy management is critical to achieving the lowest possible roll-out speed consistent with airplane control, and pilots measure energy as airspeed and altitude.
bbchien
Touchdown! Greaser!
If you are doing an approach at what works out to 1.1 Vso and can time the flare dispersion of energy EXACTLY corectly you will still set the nosewheel too firmly, if your W&B is at the forward edge.
To reiterate post #2, which I think only SacArrow has picked up upon, put a bag of kitty liter in the baggage compartment. You'll be amazed. Pause for a moment: where did they put the battery in the Arrow? Think thye're on to something?
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
Problem is that while you have some good points, you mix it with alot of silliness.
If you really think that 'nose-heaviness' is in the pilots head, then I'd recommend you try flying a Turbo Lance and a Warrior side by side. I guarantee that the PA32RT requires more pressure on the yoke to flare than the PA28. Doesn't mean that the Lance is less controllable, just means that you need to compensate for the different aircraft.
dell30rb
Final Approach
I think you're both right.. The airplane feels nose heavy because it takes more back pressure to flare, but its not technically nose heavy because it has plenty of elevator authority available.. You just have to pull harder to get it
COFlyBoy
Line Up and Wait
What is the technical definition of nose-heavy?
I'd suggest that nose-heavy could be defined as: You are within the forward 10% of your CG range.
The PA-32 has a huge CG range and the feel changes a lot depending on where the CG is. With a nose-heavy CG (as defined above) it is very hard to hold the nosewheel off the runway (as in it will come down very shortly after touchdown).
I think the OP issue was not CG or airspeed, but letting the yoke go forward before the nosewheel had landed. Any of the Cherokee line will plunk the nosewheel if you let up on the back pressure.
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
Not just Cherokees.
The same is very true for:
Beech Duchess
Cessna Cardinal
B-25
And probably several others that I haven't flown.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Heh heh, yep. That's why I chickened out!
Skylane nose gear isn't known for enjoying stuff like that.Oh, and in our Skylane, the battery is already in the back. It's still not heavy enough.
Well, if wheel chocking would help the OP in landing an Arrow, perhaps you'd be the guy to go to. And am I suggesting that the OP land at a high speed? Nope.
I agree that energy management is KEY to landing- as I have said in previous posts. It's about managing the energy transitions that occur at the moment of touchdown, why they happen in differently in different aircraft, and the pilots ability to counteract them. Please read my posts. If I am wrong, call it out and explain why.
Perhaps I need to write less. Something like:
Don't land hard, and pull back a bit after the mains chirp.
TMetzinger
Final Approach
Good god yes... I fly a Turbo lance occasionally and often near or at the forward CG limit. 182s near the forward limit are similar.
Speaking of the Turbo Lance (time for some thread creep), got any tips for the takeoff rotation? I'm not happy with my takeoffs, the nose gets "light" long before she'll really rotate. I THINK that I'm easing back on the yoke early the way I would do in other airplanes for a smooth rotation, and it's not working with the T-tail. If so, should I leave the elevator neutral until I hit rotation speed?
Thanks in advance,
dmccormack
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Dan Mc
How is that different from any other nosedragger?
FWIW the C205 is a very "nose heavy" airplane with 2 up and light load.
1.3 * Vso provides enough energy for one smooth level-off transition -- and you'd better get it right, because if you don't you'll smack the ground or pop up and stall 15' AGL.
So it's easier (not better) to keep some power and get established level and then chop the power.
But you'll eat up a few hundred feet of runway.
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
Caveat - it has been a year or two since I've flown the Turbo Lance, but I do not recall any big issues with it on takeoff, but then I don't try to lift the nose much early on in the roll. I pretty much do exactly what you are thinking about - keep the elevator fairly neutral until Vr, then gentle back pressure and it flies off fine.
That's my point- it's not any different. The difference is the pilot flying.
zaitcev
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Pete Zaitcev
I took a local Arrow PA28R-200 N32492 for a local trip today, and did 4 landings. I was quite rusty at first and ran a risk of wheelbarrowing it at the first landing, due to indecisive flaring. But they were more or less acceptable thereafter. I was coming over treshold at 80..85 mph indicated.
Being mindful of this thread, I made sure to observe consciously how I can ease the nose down. Ususally I don't think about it, it just happens. I found that the controllability is retained for a long time and the nose can be eased down gently for sure.
While playing with it, I almost came to trouble. At the last landing, I kept the nose up for too long, while the airplane started drifting right off centerline. Without thinking it through I increased the left rudder and then I realized that I'm about to drop the nose down while nosewheel is pointing left. I followed with rather confused footwork and some left aileron to make sure we don't flip over. Not even sure what I did exactly. The CFI said it was acceptable. Fortunately, the runway 3 in ABQ is almost wide enough to land across it
My CFI weighs 190 pounds and I weigh 230 pounds. I had to use ballast in the baggage compartment to take us inside the W/B envelope (I used a jug of water and the regular pilot's junk in the bag: those FAR/AIM are quite big nowadays).
Perhaps the Arrow III that jcc3inc flies is just different.
-- Pete
Being mindful of this thread, I made sure to observe consciously how I can ease the nose down. Ususally I don't think about it, it just happens. I found that the controllability is retained for a long time and the nose can be eased down gently for sure.
While playing with it, I almost came to trouble. At the last landing, I kept the nose up for too long, while the airplane started drifting right off centerline. Without thinking it through I increased the left rudder and then I realized that I'm about to drop the nose down while nosewheel is pointing left. I followed with rather confused footwork and some left aileron to make sure we don't flip over. Not even sure what I did exactly. The CFI said it was acceptable. Fortunately, the runway 3 in ABQ is almost wide enough to land across it
My CFI weighs 190 pounds and I weigh 230 pounds. I had to use ballast in the baggage compartment to take us inside the W/B envelope (I used a jug of water and the regular pilot's junk in the bag: those FAR/AIM are quite big nowadays).
Perhaps the Arrow III that jcc3inc flies is just different.
-- Pete