Arrival question

[ErikU]

I fly IFR quite a bit, but every once in a while I get a question that stumps me. I was flying from PSC to BFI today and was given an arrival procedure in my clearance that looked like this:

PSC V204 YKM V4 CHINS CHINS6

Charts:

CHINS6: http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0903/00582CHINS.PDF
ILS31L : http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0903/00384I31L.PDF

I rarely get arrival procedures, so perhaps I need some review. BFI was landing to the north. I assume I was to fly to CHINS then fly the procedure. Here are my questions in order of concern:

- What was I to do after arriving at AUBRN? How was I supposed to get to the IAF? A couple miles from AUBRN I asked the controller if he was planning to issue a vector and he replied that he was just going to have me fly to LACKR and start the approach. He then issued an approach clearance just outside AUBRN….

- Should I have just turned to 250 after reaching AUBRN and then waited for a vector to the ILS?

- I fly the altitude assigned by the controller unless lost comm, in which case I can use the minimums on the plate (assuming that I have applied the lost comm. rules)?

- On my 430W when I load the arrival in the flight plan after CHINS it asks which transition I want and then wants to sequence me all the way back to the start of that transition after CHINS. Other then manually sequencing to the CHINS-RADDY leg, is there a better way to automate this?


Thanks!

 

[SCCutler]

1. Properly-loaded, the arrival should not have any duplicate waypoints, but if it does, edit and delete.

2. Assuming landing north, depart AUBRN 250, and accept vectors. If you go NORDO, fly direct LACKR from AUBRN, fly the app.

 

[ErikU]

I didn't get any vectors. I simply got a "cleared for the approach". It seems to me I should have been on a published transition..?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I fly IFR quite a bit, but every once in a while I get a question that stumps me. I was flying from PSC to BFI today and was given an arrival procedure in my clearance that looked like this:

PSC V204 YKM V4 CHINS CHINS6

I rarely get arrival procedures, so perhaps I need some review. BFI was landing to the north. I assume I was to fly to CHINS then fly the procedure. Here are my questions in order of concern:

- What was I to do after arriving at AUBRN? How was I supposed to get to the IAF? A couple miles from AUBRN I asked the controller if he was planning to issue a vector and he replied that he was just going to have me fly to LACKR and start the approach. He then issued an approach clearance just outside AUBRN….

Since that's what he said... I'd take that as a "vector" of whatever you were flying to stay on the 104 radial to LACKR and then fly on down the ILS. What altitude were you at that point? In a lost-comm situation (ie, MVA's don't apply) you'd have to stay at 6400 feet to LACKR which would leave you with a 960 fpm descent rate all the way to the runway at 90 knots; if it was below localizer mins and you needed to pick up the glideslope at DUANE you'd be looking at 1380fpm at 90 knots... Too much!

IMHO, the approach should allow a transition from AUBRN, or maybe even an earlier point on the arrival to allow for a descent. Of course, the arrival has instructions for lost comm, but they don't tell you what to do after you execute them!

- Should I have just turned to 250 after reaching AUBRN and then waited for a vector to the ILS?

Lacking any instructions to the contrary, yes.

It appears that AUBRN and LACKR are very close, maybe only a mile or so apart (though that's a trig problem for another day, when I have paper in front of me). Was the localizer alive when you got to AUBRN?

- I fly the altitude assigned by the controller unless lost comm, in which case I can use the minimums on the plate (assuming that I have applied the lost comm. rules)?

Problem is, as noted above, you have to stay at 6400 until LACKR and then drop out of the sky, since both the last leg of the arrival and the MSA are 6400 feet.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

You were already cleared to a given way point. That may or may not have been part of STAR. From there, you're given vectors to join the final approach course or cleared for the full approach.

Okay, now actually LOOK at the charts he posted links to, and tell me how you fly "the full approach" when you get cleared for it a couple miles prior to reaching AUBRN on the STAR.

 

[SCCutler]

OK, what Kent said (2 posts up); LACKR is further out on the 104* radial than AUBRN, so he never intended you to reach AUBRN, but rather, to intercept the LOC and fly it on in.

I suspect that the "...depart AUBRN on 250*" instruction is the backup plan for those occasions when traffic or workload preclude them from clearing you for the approach prior to reaching LACKR, and further, that this rarely happens.

 

[Ted]

What Kent said.

Fly that 250 heading and accept vectors. Looks like you descend to 6400 )so long as you're within that 25 nm radius of SEA), and then have a really high descent rate in order to meet your required altitudes. Seems that, without some vectors and being given altitudes, this would be a bit confusing. Especially since it says "Radar Required", that would lead me to expect some more info from them.

What I would expect (around here, anyway) would be something along the lines of flying that 250 heading, told to descend to an appropriate altitude, and then get assigned, say, a 280 with "Fly 280 heading until established on the localizer. Once established descend to 2600, cleared ILS31L approach." Or something like that.

 

[roncachamp]

- What was I to do after arriving at AUBRN? How was I supposed to get to the IAF? A couple miles from AUBRN I asked the controller if he was planning to issue a vector and he replied that he was just going to have me fly to LACKR and start the approach. He then issued an approach clearance just outside AUBRN….

- Should I have just turned to 250 after reaching AUBRN and then waited for a vector to the ILS?

If the controller hadn't already said that he was just going to have you fly to LACKR and start the approach, yes. But he had already said that, so just track the SEA R-104 to the localizer and turn inbound.

There's no connection between this approach and the enroute structure, that's why the IAP says "RADAR REQUIRED". There easily could have been, the SEA R-104 is on the CHINS 6 STAR and it determines the IAF LACKR, the intercept is only 26 degrees. That's what the controller wanted you to do, but he issued a lousy clearance. Something like "seven miles southeast of DUANE, fly present heading, maintain XX until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 31 left approach" would have been better.

 

[poadeleted20]

I fly IFR quite a bit, but every once in a while I get a question that stumps me. I was flying from PSC to BFI today and was given an arrival procedure in my clearance that looked like this:

PSC V204 YKM V4 CHINS CHINS6

Charts:

CHINS6: http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0903/00582CHINS.PDF
ILS31L : http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0903/00384I31L.PDF

I rarely get arrival procedures, so perhaps I need some review. BFI was landing to the north. I assume I was to fly to CHINS then fly the procedure.

Not sure how you came to assume that, since that's not what the STAR calls for. It says to fly it all the way to AUBRN, then (if landing north), turn left 250 and stand by for vectors. In any event, I don't see any transition or feeder route from CHINS to the approach, so there would be no routing other than the STAR as published (continuing to AUBRN and then heading 250 for vectors) to get you to the approach.

- What was I to do after arriving at AUBRN?

Turn left 250 and wait for vectors.

How was I supposed to get to the IAF?

No need to go to the IAF since you're getting vectors to final.

A couple miles from AUBRN I asked the controller if he was planning to issue a vector and he replied that he was just going to have me fly to LACKR and start the approach. He then issued an approach clearance just outside AUBRN….

I suppose if you're /G he could clear you direct LACKR, but not otherwise.

- Should I have just turned to 250 after reaching AUBRN and then waited for a vector to the ILS?

Yes, since that's what the STAR says to do.

- I fly the altitude assigned by the controller unless lost comm, in which case I can use the minimums on the plate (assuming that I have applied the lost comm. rules)?

You only fly the altitudes on the STAR if you were cleared to "descend via the CHINS SIX STAR" or there's a hard altitude to fly (e.g., Props cross RADDY at 10,000). If you lost comm after RADDY, the 91.185(c) tells you to maintain your last assigned altitude or the MEA (whichever is higher, since you don't have an expected altitude), proceed to a fix from which you can start the approach, hold there at that altitude until your ETE runs out, and then leave that altitude and commence your approach. If you lost comm before RADDY, you'd descend to cross RADDY at 10,000 and then do as stated above.

- On my 430W when I load the arrival in the flight plan after CHINS it asks which transition I want and then wants to sequence me all the way back to the start of that transition after CHINS. Other then manually sequencing to the CHINS-RADDY leg, is there a better way to automate this?

No. And having that 430W means the controller can give you direct LACKR.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

OK, what Kent said (2 posts up); LACKR is further out on the 104* radial than AUBRN, so he never intended you to reach AUBRN, but rather, to intercept the LOC and fly it on in.

Spike,

It's not easy to determine this (I looked it up on the airspace fixes page) but LACKR is not further out than AUBRN - LACKR appears to be a mile or two closer to the VOR, so you're kind of in no-man's land there for a minute. It may be close enough that the localizer is alive at AUBRN but I don't really know. However, you would fly past AUBRN.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Not sure how you came to assume that, since that's not what the STAR calls for. It says to fly it all the way to AUBRN, then (if landing north), turn left 250 and stand by for vectors. In any event, I don't see any transition or feeder route from CHINS to the approach, so there would be no routing other than the STAR as published (continuing to AUBRN and then heading 250 for vectors) to get you to the approach.

I think by "procedure" he meant the arrival, not the approach.

Turn left 250 and wait for vectors.

Even though he'd already been cleared for the approach? I disagree.

I suppose if you're /G he could clear you direct LACKR, but not otherwise.

Why not? They're both on the 104 radial. Don't need anything more than a VOR and a LOC receiver to track directly to and identify LACKR from the arrival.

 

[CJones]

Even though he'd already been cleared for the approach? I disagree.

The OP said he was unsure about what to do and asked the controller before he arrived at AUBRN at which point the controller cleared him for the approach.

If the OP hadn't asked ahead of time, once he arrived at AUBRN, he would have been expected to fly heading 250 and wait for vectors.

 

[Ted]

Ahh, now that's the part I missed. He'd been cleared for the approach ahead of time.

This sounds like a situation where I would have requested vectors. When in doubt, you can always ask for them.

 

[CJones]

This sounds like a situation where I would have requested vectors. When in doubt, you can always ask for them.

True, but I would have waited until crossing AUBRN and flying hdg 250 for a bit before asking for vectors. If I started to get the feeling I had been forgotten about (situational awareness on the radio, flying through the approach course, etc.) then I would chime in and ask for vectors, but I would have flown the published procedure before doing so.

In the OP's case, no harm, no foul - he was unsure and spoke up.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

The OP said he was unsure about what to do and asked the controller before he arrived at AUBRN at which point the controller cleared him for the approach.

If the OP hadn't asked ahead of time, once he arrived at AUBRN, he would have been expected to fly heading 250 and wait for vectors.

Now THAT I agree with.

 

[mantakos]

Okay, now actually LOOK at the charts he posted links to, and tell me how you fly "the full approach" when you get cleared for it a couple miles prior to reaching AUBRN on the STAR.

The arrival ends with a heading to fly, under the assumption that vectors will be issued. It also says:

LOST COMMUNICATIONS: After AUBRN DME FIX proceed direct SEA VORTAC.
​

But the approach is "RADAR REQUIRED" and doesn't have a transition route from SEA. You're going to end up passing the IAF on the way to SEA, but way high, and since it's a RADAR REQUIRED approach, there's no PT in which to lose altitude.

BTW, about the Garmin 430 issue, it has you choosing from one of the three transitions, but it looks like you're picking up the arrival from YKM, a waypoint in the middle. So it does make sense (in a computery kind of way) that it tries to route you back to your chosen transition. To pick up the arrival from YKM, you'd probably want to do an "activate leg" on the leg between YKM and CHINS. The garmin also lets you delete waypoints on an arrival, so you could also load the arrival and then trim back all the "outside" waypoints that you're not going to pass, effectively editing the arrival to one that starts at YKM or CHINS.
-harry

 

[poadeleted20]

Even though he'd already been cleared for the approach? I disagree.

If he'd been cleared for the approach, the controller would have to have given him explicit routing and there wouldn't be a question about what to do. If he got to AUBRN without such routing, he does as published (left 250 for vectors).

Why not? They're both on the 104 radial.

Sorry, I missed that. Yes, the controller could clear a non-area-nav aircraft to proceed from AUBRN to LACKR via the 104 radial.

 

[poadeleted20]

The arrival ends with a heading to fly, under the assumption that vectors will be issued. It also says:

LOST COMMUNICATIONS: After AUBRN DME FIX proceed direct SEA VORTAC.
​

But the approach is "RADAR REQUIRED" and doesn't have a transition route from SEA. You're going to end up passing the IAF on the way to SEA, but way high, and since it's a RADAR REQUIRED approach, there's no PT in which to lose altitude.

To do it by the book, you'd have to dig into the approach charts and find out if there's an approach you can fly from SEA, and if so, do what it says in 91.185(c)(3)(i). If not, you'd have to go by 91.185(c)(3)(ii) and figure out how to get from SEA to a fix from which an approach does begin, say, but reversing over SEA and flying the 104 towards LACKR and letting your GNS430W lead the turn-in so you don't overshoot the localizer.

 

[Ted]

True, but I would have waited until crossing AUBRN and flying hdg 250 for a bit before asking for vectors. If I started to get the feeling I had been forgotten about (situational awareness on the radio, flying through the approach course, etc.) then I would chime in and ask for vectors, but I would have flown the published procedure before doing so.

In the OP's case, no harm, no foul - he was unsure and spoke up.

Sorry, my mistake. Yes, fly heading of 250 upon reaching AUBRN, and ask for vectors if you haven't gotten them within some reasonable period of time.

I didn't mean to suggest deviating from the published procedure unless told to do otherwise.

 

[CJones]

I didn't mean to suggest deviating from the published procedure unless told to do otherwise.

Whatever, Ted.. I know your type. Mr. Cowboy of the sky. "Aztruck to tower, make room, 'cause here I come!"

 

[LearDriver]

OP. You said that you received an approach clearance just outside AUBRN. What was the exact approach clearance?

 

[SCCutler]

Spike,

It's not easy to determine this (I looked it up on the airspace fixes page) but LACKR is not further out than AUBRN - LACKR appears to be a mile or two closer to the VOR, so you're kind of in no-man's land there for a minute. It may be close enough that the localizer is alive at AUBRN but I don't really know. However, you would fly past AUBRN.

D'oh!

I saw the 9.8DME info for LACKR on the IAP, but (of course) the distance is from the LOC, not the VOR.

 

[Ted]

Whatever, Ted.. I know your type. Mr. Cowboy of the sky. "Aztruck to tower, make room, 'cause here I come!"

That's New York flying. "Hey, I'm landin' here!"

Haven't you watched the Simpsons?

 

[ErikU]

Wow, lots of responses to my question!

I was very simply "cleared for the Boeing Field ILS 31L approach", while a few miles from AUBRN.

I still don't see what I am technically supposed to do at that point. I wasn't given a vector, and I wasn't told to intercept the localizer. Sure, I knew how to get there, but I think I should have been issued a vector or intercept instruction.

 

[ScottM]

Wow, lots of responses to my question!.

That happens here.

 

[Clark1961]

Wow, lots of responses to my question!

I was very simply "cleared for the Boeing Field ILS 31L approach", while a few miles from AUBRN.

I still don't see what I am technically supposed to do at that point. I wasn't given a vector, and I wasn't told to intercept the localizer. Sure, I knew how to get there, but I think I should have been issued a vector or intercept instruction.

Maybe give'em a call and ask what the controller wants you to do? Then report back so the rest of us can learn.:smile:

 

[poadeleted20]

I was very simply "cleared for the Boeing Field ILS 31L approach", while a few miles from AUBRN.

If that's all you got, the controller screwed up. The approach clearance must contain a distance from the next fix on the approach, a heading or route to fly, an altitude to maintain until established, and the approach/transition for which you are cleared, e.g., "Cessna 123 is five miles from LURKR, fly heading 280, maintain 3000 until established, cleared for the ILS 31 approach."

I still don't see what I am technically supposed to do at that point. I wasn't given a vector, and I wasn't told to intercept the localizer.

If you're cleared for the approach, that includes intercepting the localizer, but they must give you a course/heading to fly to get there and an altitude to maintain until established. The approach clearance you described was incomplete, and you should have obtained clarification.

 

[gismo]

OK, what Kent said (2 posts up); LACKR is further out on the 104* radial than AUBRN, so he never intended you to reach AUBRN, but rather, to intercept the LOC and fly it on in.

First of all, LACKR is a bit more than 1 nm CLOSER to the SEA VOR than AUBRN (that 9.8 nm DME label at LACKR is from the ILS (I-CHJ) not from the SEA VOR). So it would indeed be possible to intercept the LOC from the R-104.

That said, I believe your controller screwed up big time with his instructions. The clearance should have been something like "after AUBRN fly heading XXX (close to 284 with adjustment for the wind), intercept the localizer, cleared for the ILS 31 left, maintain 2000 until established". I don't believe that any clearance direct to LACKR without an IFR GPS or other RNAV would be legal even though it appears that LACKR is on V4 (and I'm not certain that it really is, it's slightly displaced from there on my flight planner). And the controller should have given you a heads up on this long before you were a mile or two from AUBRN (expect...).

You didn't mention anything about altitudes but I hope you weren't left at 7000 until you were at AUBRN and cleared for the approach. ATC is never supposed to dump you onto the LOC above the GS and they can't expect you do drop several thousand feet in the short distance from AUBRN to the LOC.

 

[poadeleted20]

That said, I believe your controller screwed up big time with his instructions. The clearance should have been something like "after AUBRN fly heading XXX (close to 284 with adjustment for the wind), intercept the localizer, cleared for the ILS 31 left, maintain 2000 until established".

Minor quibble -- if giving you a vector to final and clearing you for the approach, the controller doesn't have to tell you to intercept the localizer. That is reserved for when the controller cannot yet clear you for the approach but wants you to intercept and track the localizer in until you are cleared.

I don't believe that any clearance direct to LACKR without an IFR GPS or other RNAV would be legal even though it appears that LACKR is on V4 (and I'm not certain that it really is, it's slightly displaced from there on my flight planner).

As mentioned above, that's correct -- for a non-area-nav aircraft, the clearance would have to be either V4 or the SEA104 to LACKR.

And the controller should have given you a heads up on this long before you were a mile or two from AUBRN (expect...).

I disagree because it's clearly written in the STAR (fly heading 250 and expect vectors to final).

 

[kc310r]

I disagree because it's clearly written in the STAR (fly heading 250 and expect vectors to final).

Inasmuch as LACKR is only 1.3 miles beyond AUBRN it is reasonable to assume that the needle would be alive over AUBRN thereby negating the 250 heading direction post AUBRN on the STAR. The approach clearance was incomplete however. There is no way to infer the distance to LACKR without an internet connection and a web browser. Plus, the decent in a non-pressurized airplane would be pretty severe. On the bright side, its a great opportunity to practice emergency decents!

 

[LearDriver]

Duats and Great Circle Mapper both show the intersections as being 1 mile from each other.

 

[poadeleted20]

Inasmuch as LACKR is only 1.3 miles beyond AUBRN it is reasonable to assume that the needle would be alive over AUBRN thereby negating the 250 heading direction post AUBRN on the STAR.

I don't think it's reasonable to assume anything when you have printed instructions on the chart. For all you know, they're sequencing planes from west side, and need to fit you into that flow.

 

[gismo]

Minor quibble -- if giving you a vector to final and clearing you for the approach, the controller doesn't have to tell you to intercept the localizer. That is reserved for when the controller cannot yet clear you for the approach but wants you to intercept and track the localizer in until you are cleared.

I agree, I was having a hard time coming up with the proper terminology from memory.

I disagree because it's clearly written in the STAR (fly heading 250 and expect vectors to final).

On this I disagree with you. The Star says to fly heading 250 and expect vectors, that's not what the controller's instructions were at all. ATC appeared to be wanting an intercept of the LOC directly from V4, not from a 250 heading. In addition baring any instructions to the contrary the STAR says to turn to heading 250 and expect vectors, not fly heading 250 and intercept the LOC. Am I missing something you're seeing?

 

[ErikU]

It sounds like the instructions were incomplete.

I had the opportunity to fly the exact same approach today, and was given what I expected.

As I was close to AUBRN I got a vector to intercept the localizer. Makes much more sense that way!

 

[poadeleted20]

On this I disagree with you. The Star says to fly heading 250 and expect vectors, that's not what the controller's instructions were at all.

Sorry, I thought we were talking about what should happen absent that non-7110.65-compliant instruction from the controller.

ATC appeared to be wanting an intercept of the LOC directly from V4, not from a 250 heading.

One might guess that, but I hate having to guess when I'm operating IFR. Thus, if issued that instruction, I'd query the controller.

In addition baring any instructions to the contrary the STAR says to turn to heading 250 and expect vectors, not fly heading 250 and intercept the LOC. Am I missing something you're seeing?

I thought I said that -- absent any instruction, just fly 250 and wait for vectors. As I said in another post, you have no idea whether the controller will turn you right on or take you across and back.

 

[gismo]

Sorry, I thought we were talking about what should happen absent that non-7110.65-compliant instruction from the controller.
One might guess that, but I hate having to guess when I'm operating IFR. Thus, if issued that instruction, I'd query the controller.
I thought I said that -- absent any instruction, just fly 250 and wait for vectors. As I said in another post, you have no idea whether the controller will turn you right on or take you across and back.

OK we're both back on the same page now. I thought you were saying the controller's (unclear) instructions needn't have come sooner since the STAR said to do essentially what the controller gave the pilot, which I think we both agree is false. So here's my position:

1) the instructions given were unclear, non-standard, and assuming the plane was still at 7000, unacceptably late in the game.

2) Had there been no instructions, the correct procedure would be to fly 250 after passing the intersection and waiting for vectors.

3) Given how close the fix is to the LOC centerline even when on the 250 heading, I'd be asking if I should expect a vector before crossing the LOC. Normally ATC is supposed to advise you if they intend you to cross the final but IME this get's overlooked with some frequency.

I'm also thinking that, given the short distance to the LOC along the 250 heading path and the several thousand feet of altitude to lose, the SOP would be to vector the airplane through and/or away from the LOC to allow for adequate room for the descent.

I also think that STARs like this are stoopid because there's no obvious/reasonable way to fly them if comm is lost. If you were faced with that, would you descend in a hold over the IAF, wander around near the LOC while descending, dive bomb the GS, or what?

 

[poadeleted20]

1) the instructions given were unclear, non-standard, and assuming the plane was still at 7000, unacceptably late in the game.

Agreed, with that assumption.

2) Had there been no instructions, the correct procedure would be to fly 250 after passing the intersection and waiting for vectors.

...at the last assigned altitude.

3) Given how close the fix is to the LOC centerline even when on the 250 heading, I'd be asking if I should expect a vector before crossing the LOC. Normally ATC is supposed to advise you if they intend you to cross the final but IME this get's overlooked with some frequency.

I think I'd wait on this one until I really thought I'd been forgotten, especially if I was still up at 7000, from which it would be virtually impossible to turn left 250, right to intercept, and then make it down to the next published altitude.

I'm also thinking that, given the short distance to the LOC along the 250 heading path and the several thousand feet of altitude to lose, the SOP would be to vector the airplane through and/or away from the LOC to allow for adequate room for the descent.

Agreed, again, assuming that they left you at 7000 on purpose, which is why I wouldn't bother the controller until I was well out over the Olympics.

I also think that STARs like this are stoopid because there's no obvious/reasonable way to fly them if comm is lost. If you were faced with that, would you descend in a hold over the IAF, wander around near the LOC while descending, dive bomb the GS, or what?

I'd do what the STAR says -- proceed direct SEA, then work out a plan to get onto the appropriate approach depending on wind/weather.

 

[Everskyward]

It sounds like the instructions were incomplete.

I had the opportunity to fly the exact same approach today, and was given what I expected.

As I was close to AUBRN I got a vector to intercept the localizer. Makes much more sense that way!

Maybe you got a trainee or an inexperienced controller last time. Stuff happens.