Arrest & Pending Felony

rainsux

rainsux

Line Up and Wait
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Mar 31, 2007
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605
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West Bloomfield, MI
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rainsux
The Background:

A colleague's 24 year-old son returned home to find his wife in bed with
someone else, again. He left the home without any physical violence,
but kicked her car door (jointly titled), leaving a dent and scuff mark.

Because the dent & scuff mark cost more than $250 to repair, he was
arrested and has been charged with a felony. The DA is unwilling to
consider any lesser charges ... and this will proceed to court as a felony
charge. The court has also issued a PPO requiring that he stay 300' away.

He's decided that he needs something "positive" in his life ... and wants to
begin flying lessons.

The Question:

Clearly he has to report the arrest. But as of this day, there is no
conviction, just a PPO and pending court date that keeps getting
deferred at the request of the DA.

This is the first stain on his personal history/record ...

1) Does he report the charge & pending court date?

2) Should he take any paperwork re: this matter, to the appt with the AME?

3) Any prediction re: (in?)eligibility at this time due to *this* matter? i.e.
Better to proceed poste haste? Wait? Forget-About PPL ... go SP or Glider?

4) If he is subsequently convicted of Felony, Willful Destruction of Property,
will it be disqualifying for a future renewal?
 
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Only convictions are to be reported on the medical applications.

IMHO, based on your description (there are always two sides to the story) this did not include drugs or alcohol and should not exclude him from obtaining a medical certificate.
 
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> there are always two sides to the story

I believe there are three (3). His side. Her side. The truth. <g>

> Only convictions are to be reported on the medical applications.

Incomplete/Incorrect.

FAA 8500-6, Section 18, Item v also requires disclosing administrative actions, "which
resulted in attendance at an educational or rehabilitation program."

That last clause might be a gotcha; which is why I'm seeking the opininon(s) of AMEs
regarding whether it's okay to proceed; or, better to wait until the matter is settled.
 
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First thing first. He needs a good attorney to work with the DA and get the charge dropped and then divorce the slutty wife.

Get that done, then worry about the flying lessons.


Trapper John
 
My biggest fear has always been with having to deal with this situation....there's not many times I'll get violent, but I suspect that the dude in my bed with my wife would be leaving with a lot more bruises on him than he came with, and my soon to be ex-wife would have her reputation ruined....I really think I would call everyone associated with her, her boss, her coworkers, etc., and tell them what a whore she is. Including an MMS of the event in action.

Thankfully, I'll never have to deal with that with Brianna.
 
If it were me I would wait, spend the lesson money on a good lawyer and make sure my kid didn't get tagged with a felony for kicking his own car. IMHO he showed remarkable restraint, if the facts are as you say.
 
So they pin a felony on guy for kicking a car he jointly owns. Bet adultery is still on the books in your state and I bet no one is going to get charged for it, much less a felony.
 
rainsux said:
> there are always two sides to the story

I believe there are three (3). His side. Her side. The truth. <g>
Click to expand...

Actually there are 4 sides: The plaintiff's, the defendant's, the judge/jury's opinion, and then what really happened.
 
Methinks your colleague's son would be better off spending the first few hours' flight instruction money on a decent attorney. Just do a simple ROI - does the potential good coming from that few hours of flight instruction outweigh the harm coming from a potential felony conviction?

The former isn't going anywhere in the immediate future. The latter, however, will follow him around for the rest of his life.

Frankly, unless he's rolling in enough money to pay ~$150/hr. for flight instruction and $250-300/hr. for quality criminal legal work and the same for a divorce attorney (doubt this is a case where the divorce would not require an attorney) at the same time, it sounds like this guy needs to get his priorities straight.

I don't say this as an attorney trying to drum up business for my fellow attorneys. I say it because, although I'm not familiar with MI law, I can see the holes in the case from 1,500 miles away, even assuming the facts you've posted are only part of the story; I also say it because a felony conviction will cause him problems for the rest of his life.
 
ClimbnSink said:
So they pin a felony on guy for kicking a car he jointly owns. Bet adultery is still on the books in your state and I bet no one is going to get charged for it, much less a felony.
Click to expand...

I don't know which state's law would apply, but I can't imagine someone could get stuck with a felony for damaging property he owns (even if jointly). Now if he had committed some sort of fraud (like filing an insurance claim), I could see a felony, but for property he owned?
 
DawnW said:
I don't know which state's law would apply, but I can't imagine someone could get stuck with a felony for damaging property he owns (even if jointly). Now if he had committed some sort of fraud (like filing an insurance claim), I could see a felony, but for property he owned?
Click to expand...
You are correct Dawn, in Missouri you can not be charged for damaging property you own, even if it is jointly owned. The other party can take you to civil court to recouple what they are out. Now if he turned in an insurance claim on the property he damaged, that might be another story and could be a felony charge.
 
This story is far from complete. He needs to get with a criminal law attorney. Then a good Family Law attorney.

As for reporting, 18V says "history of nontraffic conviction(s) (misdemeanors or felonies)" and it means just that.

The arrest does need reporting.

In some states, where the judge sees that the anger was directed at a self owned inanimate object, he'll either dismiss or hold papers agains conviction for a year if no recurrence. This needs to be played out by the legal beagles.
 
This story has me wondering if the DA is somehow related to the guy's wife or new sexual partner. Either way there's gotta be more to it that was posted, I just can't see any sensible DA attempting let alone getting a felony indictment based on the facts presented so far.
 
DawnW said:
I don't know which state's law would apply, but I can't imagine someone could get stuck with a felony for damaging property he owns (even if jointly). Now if he had committed some sort of fraud (like filing an insurance claim), I could see a felony, but for property he owned?
Click to expand...


I agree. From the OP: "kicked her car door (jointly titled), leaving a dent and scuff mark."
 
gismo said:
This story has me wondering if the DA is somehow related to the guy's wife or new sexual partner. Either way there's gotta be more to it that was posted, I just can't see any sensible DA attempting let alone getting a felony indictment based on the facts presented so far.
Click to expand...

The phrases "Sensible DA" and "Oakland County Prosecutor David Gorcyca" are not typically found in the same sentence
 
To clarify: the Arrest needs reporting (verbiage on form GG)
There is not yet a conviction to report, so there nothing to report under "conviction". that language is quite clear.

Thank you Geico266.
 
bbchien said:
To clarify: the Arrest needs reporting (verbiage on form GG)
There is not yet a conviction to report, so there nothing to report under "conviction". that language is quite clear.

Thank you Geico266.
Click to expand...


You are welcome sir.

I'm still confused, where and why does the arrest need to be reported? Why would you report something that you have not been found guilty of. "Innocent until proven guilty" and all that. I can see certain instances where a court diversion program is entered into for first time drug offenders. Is this the type of exception the FAA is looking for?
If I recieve a ticket for not cutting the grass on my commercial vacant lot I need to report that? :yikes: Charges were dropped, but I still was issued a ticket.
 
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Bruce,

Considering only the legal aspects; does an AME have discretion to issue an
initial Medical/Student Pilot Certificate? Or; must the AME defer to the RFS/OKC?

Assume he's convicted of Felony Willful Property Damage. Five years down the
road he returns for a renewal ... does the AME have discretion to [re]issue when
the conviction is disclosed?

> The phrases "Sensible DA" and "Oakland County Prosecutor David Gorcyca" are
> not typically found in the same sentence

True, but the jurisdiction is rural, upstate NY, not MI.

FWIW; I was told today that NY Social Services issued their report today, saying
that their investigation does not support the wife's allegations of violence towards
her or the child.



 
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You may thank Chairman Oberstar for changing this into, "guilty until proven innocent and reviewed by us at our leisure, by whatever the standard is at the time we choose to review it." The language is explicit, that any arrest (whether motor vehicle related or not) needs reported.

Then you get into the issue of when is an arrest for real? Arrests that are unwarranted or acquitted or dismissed get expunged. Then it's a matter of was it on a data tape somewhere or not.

This once great nation sure isn't what it used to be.

To Rainsux, I would do the exam, call the agnecy, and record the name of whomever I spoke with, put the name in Box 60, and never accept anything below "Airman Medical Officer" as my correspondent.
 
Geico266 said:
I'm still confused, where and why does the arrest need to be reported?
Click to expand...
"Where" is on the 8500-8 application for your next medical certificate. "Why" is because the FAA says so.:tongue:

Well, actually, it's because the FAA feels that folks were out there getting involved in drunk driving incidents, but working out plea agreements to offenses not involving alcohol, or otherwise beating the rap. They feel that multiple arrests for DUI suggest a problem which could affect your flying even if you aren't ever convicted. Therefore, a couple of years ago, they changed the medical application to require reports of all arrests, not just all convictions.
Why would you report something that you have not been found guilty of. "Innocent until proven guilty" and all that.
Click to expand...
Because we should all realize that not being found guilty of a particular offense doesn't necessarily mean you didn't do it, just that the state was unable to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, or was willing to accept a plea to a lesser offense in order to save the state's money. The FAA doesn't care about that -- they just don't want drunks and sociopaths flying airplanes, and by law, don't have to prove your unfitness to a "beyond reasonable doubt" standard in order to keep you out of the cockpit.
I can see certain instances where a court diversion program is entered into for first time drug offenders. Is this the type of exception the FAA is looking for?
Click to expand...
That's one possibility.

If I recieve a ticket for not cutting the grass on my commercial vacant lot I need to report that? :yikes: Charges were dropped, but I still was issued a ticket.
Click to expand...
Receiving a ticket is not being arrested, just receiving a summons to appear in court. If you get arrested, you'll know it, as you'll be leaving the scene in cuffs with the arresting officer, not leaving the scene by yourself with a piece of paper.
 
A key thing to remember in all courts of law:

No one is ever found innocent.

One can, however, be found "Not Guilty" and that is a very key difference. Just because you're not guilty doesn't mean you didn't do it.

I think the FAA is very wise in understanding that difference.
 
SkyHog said:
A key thing to remember in all courts of law:

No one is ever found innocent.

One can, however, be found "Not Guilty" and that is a very key difference. Just because you're not guilty doesn't mean you didn't do it.

I think the FAA is very wise in understanding that difference.
Click to expand...

Hmmm, one Orenthal James Simpson comes to mind. :D
 
According to the story, she was "busy". Who saw him kick the car? Is it on video?

"Don't know, officer. Came home, found vandals had messed with my car AND found my wife in bed with another man... what a *@&$!#*@! messed up day!!!"
 
Trapper John said:
First thing first. He needs a good attorney to work with the DA and get the charge dropped and then divorce the slutty wife.

Get that done, then worry about the flying lessons.


Trapper John
Click to expand...

I believe that,,,, ya gotta get the priorities right.

First sue the guy for Alienation of affections, for about a million, and offer a drop charges for a drop charges.

your lawyer may even charge her with Adultery then divorce the bitc*
 
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Obi Heed Kenobi said:
Methinks your colleague's son would be better off spending the first few hours' flight instruction money on a decent attorney. Just do a simple ROI - does the potential good coming from that few hours of flight instruction outweigh the harm coming from a potential felony conviction?

The former isn't going anywhere in the immediate future. The latter, however, will follow him around for the rest of his life.

Frankly, unless he's rolling in enough money to pay ~$150/hr. for flight instruction and $250-300/hr. for quality criminal legal work and the same for a divorce attorney (doubt this is a case where the divorce would not require an attorney) at the same time, it sounds like this guy needs to get his priorities straight.

I don't say this as an attorney trying to drum up business for my fellow attorneys. I say it because, although I'm not familiar with MI law, I can see the holes in the case from 1,500 miles away, even assuming the facts you've posted are only part of the story; I also say it because a felony conviction will cause him problems for the rest of his life.
Click to expand...

+1 I love cases like this. give me one guy on the Jury. NG
 
Y'all missed one little 5-letter word: again. WTF?


A colleague's 24 year-old son returned home to find his wife in bed with
someone else, again.

I don't think he's divorcing anyone anytime soon. Instead of taking out his anger on inanimate objects, like his car, he should focus it where it belongs, like the mrs and lover - legally of course.
 
jesse said:
As would I.
Click to expand...

Really? You think that repeated arrests without conviction for DWI should have the FAA going "Wow....he's pretty unlucky to have that many different officers harrassing him about drinking and driving. Good thing he doesn't have an alcohol problem."

I think the FAA is wise to understand that repeated offenses may never contain convictions. In ABQ, we have people that have been arrested more than 20 times for DWI without a single conviction.

Why?

The DA is apparently too busy to file paperwork within the allotted 6 months.
 
SkyHog said:
Really? You think that repeated arrests without conviction for DWI should have the FAA going "Wow....he's pretty unlucky to have that many different officers harrassing him about drinking and driving. Good thing he doesn't have an alcohol problem."

I think the FAA is wise to understand that repeated offenses may never contain convictions. In ABQ, we have people that have been arrested more than 20 times for DWI without a single conviction.

Why?

The DA is apparently too busy to file paperwork within the allotted 6 months.
Click to expand...
The next time you get arrested for something you didn't do ; your opinion will change.
 
jesse said:
The next time you get arrested for something you didn't do ; your opinion will change.
Click to expand...

Well....perhaps the next time I get arrested 10 times for the same thing I didn't do, my opinion will change.

The FAA isn't going to do anything to someone for 1 arrest without conviction.
 
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