Arrest for the first time...

(1) Do you have any prior publically documented alcohol events
(2) Did you blow.
These two are CRITICAL to what's going to happen.....

...and borrow money to get an attorney. Don't be stupid twice.
Don't publish details. Use the email in my sig line.....
 
In post 37, the OP is, I think, citing an FAA FAQ answer. It references parts 61 and 67 generally (not much help) and suggests notification is required for "administrative actions," even those not resulting in a conviction. I haven't found an FAA-centric definition of "administrative actions" yet, but the arrest for the noted charges certainly could reasonably qualify under a plain meaning. 61.15 seems reasonably unambiguous in relating to motor vehicle issues. That's evidently not in play here, per OP. The "mental" sections under part 67 are very broad. Standard disclaimer: this is not legal advice. Needless repetition: consult a qualified attorney.
 
Go to your hearing. Make a motion for dismissal based on best arguments you can come up with. Tell the judge you can't plead either way because you don't have a lawyer. Ask for a public defender. They are usually pretty good. Then ask for a several month continuance to have time to prepare your plea. Request in writing, a copy of all the evidence they have against you. They have to give it to you BTW. Be polite. Wear a suit. Good luck!
 
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As far as all the self confession stuff, find out what's going to be in the databases and what can be pulled up, per our society today, if it's not in the database it didn't happen, but if it doesn't end up in any database and you confess to it on a medical application and now it's in the database.

Good lawyer, which is not always the same as an expensive attorney.

Find out what's going into the records and who has access to said record.
 
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midlifeflyer said:
Can you point to the rule or other FAA document that says this? I'm not familiar with it.

I'm familiar with the requirements for reporting "motor vehicle actions," for reporting certain arrests an convictions on a medical application, and for reporting drug-related convictions on a pilot certificate or rating application. But I'm not familiar with a rule like the one you are talking about.
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You know, I usually let pedantic things go, but if you read the whole thread you would would have seen Tims post and my reply where I said that, and that it wasn't clear in the OP so I was painting with a broad brush.
 
James331 said:
As far as all the self confession stuff, find out what's going to be in the databases and what can be pulled up, per our society today, if it's not in the database it didn't happen, but if it doesn't end up in any database and you confess to it on a medical application and now it's in the database.

Good lawyer, which is not always the same as an expensive attorney.

Find out what's going into the records and who has access to said record.
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See, however, 18 CFR 1001.
 
Which is saber rattling, you're going to live and die by the paperwork / databases, don't make life harder on yourself than you have to.

Still, this the horse infront of the cart, got to get through the court process first.
 
James331 said:
Which is saber rattling, you're going to live and die by the paperwork / databases, don't make life harder on yourself than you have to.

Still, this the horse infront of the cart, got to get through the court process first.
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I don't mean to give offense, and I'm not trying to rattle a saber. I agree there's no virtue or nobility in self-disclosure that's not required. I simply caution the OP not to make false statements in contravention of the cited reg., certainly not by commission, nor even by material omission. It can be a tricky line to walk.

To re-beat the dead horse, this is part of what a competent attorney could help the OP navigate. Violation could cost him his ticket, up to 5 years in prison, and/or $10,000, last time I looked. Prosecution is unlikely, but it could be a bargaining chip: stranger things have happened.
 
Agreed 100%

A good lawyer should also be able to tell him his exposure as far as databases are concerned for the FAA.

Again if he gets a dismissal based on keeping his nose clean for XX months, there's a good chance nothing will be recorded anywhere anyone would ever be able to find it, much like the guy who posted about some pot ticket he got that didn't show up even when he ran a FBI check on himself, sleeping dogs and all that, again, like you said, these are things he'd want to talk to a atty about.
 
Jeez, it seems as if we have a lot of old farts here who have long ago forgotten about the stupid **** they did as a kid. And if you didn't do any stupid **** as a kid, then you have my deepest sympathies for missing the joys of being young and stupid. I certainly know I did my fair share.

I personally know a lot of people from my generation who are judges, lawyers, successful businessmen, etc., and who did things for worse when a kid than this. If kids were held to the same standards as they are today back in my generation then we'd all be in prison! :)

I view it as both quite humorous and quite hypocritical.

With that said, I assume the OP is under 25. If that's the case, I'll cut them all the slack in the world, and hope that he manages to get beyond this without ruining any part of his future. If he's older than that then he indeed needs a kick in the butt.
 
One thing that I always tell myself when I'm about to do anything stupid is, "Is it worth it to throw away a 40+ year career in the airlines." That usually prevents me from doing anything dumb. Good luck and I hope everything works out for the best for you.
 
timwinters said:
Jeez, it seems as if we have a lot of old farts here who have long ago forgotten about the stupid **** they did as a kid. And if you didn't do any stupid **** as a kid, then you have my deepest sympathies for missing the joys of being young and stupid. I certainly know I did my fair share.

I personally know a lot of people from my generation who are judges, lawyers, successful businessmen, etc., and who did things for worse when a kid than this. If kids were held to the same standards as they are today back in my generation then we'd all be in prison! :)

I view it as both quite humorous and quite hypocritical.

With that said, I assume the OP is under 25. If that's the case, I'll cut them all the slack in the world, and hope that he manages to get beyond this without ruining any part of his future. If he's older than that then he indeed needs a kick in the butt.
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No doubt I had less fun than TW! Your sympathy is appreciated. :-D

When I was doing the obligatory stupid kid stuff many moons ago, there was no internet, very few security cameras recording stuff, nobody running around with cell phones uploading videos to the web, no bodycams on the police, no dashboard video cameras, no supercomputers compiling databases of everything, no Department of Homeland Security, no Patriot's Act. Nobody heard of FISA.

No google, Facebook, vine, snapchat, Instagram, ad nauseum. No instant viral selfies. No forums like this one. No Big Data. "Cheese it! The cops!" sufficed to evade detection (at least when E. G. Robinson or Cagney said it). Your boss didn't track every keystroke. And it was a less litigious era. Stupid actions evaporated into the proofless ether as long as they didn't leave a scar.

I worry that my young children will have a much tougher time leaving any foolishness in the forgotten past. There is no forgotten past anymore. I'm not sure one can rely very safely on indiscretions staying hidden unless they predate the digital age. Good luck to the OP.
 
Boy you hit that nail on the head @Circuit Flyer. One good example... I have a very good friend who is high up a state judicial system. For his 50th birthday I sent him a copy of a photo I took of him when we were 21 and captioned it "you ought to be damn glad we didn't have YouTube when we were kids!" What he was doing at this college party is probably better left unsaid. :)

But the point you missed is there is no longer community parenting like there was when we were kids. We likely wouldn't of gotten arrested for what the OP did in the first place. Instead the cop would have driven us home and told us to keep our ass at home for the rest of the night or he'd arrest us. Now it's all about making money instead of educating and guiding and helping to mature. It's sad really.
 
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Mike Smith said:
You know, I usually let pedantic things go, but if you read the whole thread you would would have seen Tims post and my reply where I said that, and that it wasn't clear in the OP so I was painting with a broad brush.
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I was really just asking. I don't pretend to have seen everything. You might have come across something I didn't know about.
 
Yes, I was thinking about that too. Community parenting. You put it well. Parents, teachers, police, pastors, making kids take responsibility for their stupid human tricks. Mow lawns all summer to earn money to pay for the window you broke.

Of course, when I was a kid, youthful screw-ups didn't include some of the hard-core stuff we see now. Mickey Rooney's tough guy act was no match for Spencer Tracy's Father Flanagan. Today, the kid pulls out a Glock. Or an AR-15.

The cop on the beat had more discretion, more respect, more trust. He could handle a little public drunkenness firmly but discretely. And kids had parents. It was a different world.

Sometimes I think society has changed more in the last 50 years than in the preceding 500. Maybe I'm just getting to be an old fogey. You're right, it is a sad state of affairs in many ways. And get off my lawn!
 
I find it strange that while we as a society are seemingly becoming more tolerant of various lifestyles, we are becoming less tolerant of youthful indiscretions, human error and just having a little "sinful" fun. We also seem to think that making a mistake in one's personal life or just having a little fun is somehow applicable to how one will conduct one's self in the professional arena. Frankly I don't give a damn what one does away from the office whether the office is in cubicle land or in the cockpit, all I care is how you perform in the office.
 
And even then @Circuit Flyer, my generation didn't get by with with nearly as much **** as the generation immediately preceding mine did. That would be the Vietnam generation. I'm the youngest of 10 kids. Four of my older brothers were in the military. Three did 'nam. One did two tours.

They were pulling **** well into their 40s that I wouldn't consider doing when I was in college. I can't tell you how many times I would be out partying with them and think to myself "oh ****, we're going to jail tonight, we're going to jail tonight." But they would always talk her way out of it. Especially the oldest who did two tours. The way I always described it was "those who did 'nam have a lot less regard for the consequences of their actions than a 'normal' person."

When you've been to war once or twice, slapping the **** out of some smart mouthed 25 year old is minor by comparison.

And I'm not talking small-town America where everyone knows everyone, we're talking St. Louis, Kansas City, Phoenix ,and LA when this **** happened! One of the best ones was my 21st birthday party. I was the only one sober enough to drive home!
 
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SkyDog58 said:
I find it strange that while we as a society are seemingly becoming more tolerant of various lifestyles, we are becoming less tolerant of youthful indiscretions, human error and just having a little "sinful" fun. We also seem to think that making a mistake in one's personal life or just having a little fun is somehow applicable to how one will conduct one's self in the professional arena. Frankly I don't give a damn what one does away from the office whether the office is in cubicle land or in the cockpit, all I care is how you perform in the office.
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Well said


idiot said:
I personally know the cop. I used to be in law enforcement. I don't think he will rail me. I'll probably have to go for a public defender. If the case is dropped, would I still have to report anything?
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If that were the case he wouldn't have put the charges on you in the first place, it would have been a "get out of here, you're drunk".
 
idiot said:
Then again....

"Do I have to report anything other than alcohol and/or drug related convictions?
Yes, under 14 CFR Part 61, you must report alcohol and/or drug related administrative actions, whether a conviction took place or not. Arrests, administrative actions and convictions are also reportable under Part 67, the airman application for a medical certificate."

Seems conflicting to me.
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That's exactly the reason to speak with a professional. A lawyer who understands both the criminal process and the aviation ramifications will be able to explain it. A few years of experience tells me that most people charged with criminal offenses don't really understand what they are from a technical standpoint - misdemeanor, felony, enpungeable or not, availability of diversion programs, seriousness with which similar offenses are treated in a particular jurisdiction. It's a combination of both legal and practical knowledge.

The applicable reporting requirements, and there may be multiple ones, are based are on exactly what you are charged with, exactly what interim actions are taken by courts and administrative bodies, exactly what dispositions are made of the charges, whether dismissals, conviction, diversion programs, or something else.

Brief example: a pilot was charged with reckless driving. The pilot's defense lawyer and DA put together a very sweet deal. Except for one problem - it was a deal that could negatively affect the pilot's aviation career aspirations. The defense lawyer didn't understand that, so at the pilot's request, I spoke with the pilot's defense lawyer so he would understand what those aviation ramifications were. The result was a less "sweet deal" - the DA was happy to oblige since she viewed it as worse than what she offered - but much, much better for the pilot's aviation career.

Even without knowing what you were charged with or what community it is in, I can envision multiple ways it would be handled by a court, some of which may trigger reporting requirement and some of which may not. That's where professional advice comes in.
 
SkyDog58 said:
I find it strange that while we as a society are seemingly becoming more tolerant of various lifestyles, we are becoming less tolerant of youthful indiscretions, human error and just having a little "sinful" fun. We also seem to think that making a mistake in one's personal life or just having a little fun is somehow applicable to how one will conduct one's self in the professional arena. Frankly I don't give a damn what one does away from the office whether the office is in cubicle land or in the cockpit, all I care is how you perform in the office.
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I would perhaps agree with you for some non safety-related jobs or pursuits, but if you are going to be my pilot, I'd want to know that your behavior is thoughtful and rational even outside the cockpit. To ignore a correlation between off and on the job behavior would be reckless.
 
RotorDude said:
I would perhaps agree with you for some non safety-related jobs or pursuits, but if you are going to be my pilot, I'd want to know that your behavior is thoughtful and rational even outside the cockpit. To ignore a correlation between off and on the job behavior would be reckless.
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Ahh, invoking the "saftey" card.

Well I'll see your "saftey" and raise you "the children" and "9/11".

I win.
 
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timwinters said:
And even then @Circuit Flyer, my generation didn't get by with with nearly as much **** as the generation immediately preceding mine did. That would be the Vietnam generation. I'm the youngest of 10 kids. Four of my older brothers were in the military. Three did 'nam. One did two tours.

They were pulling **** well into their 40s that I wouldn't consider doing when I was in college. I can't tell you how many times I would be out partying with them and think to myself "oh ****, we're going to jail tonight, we're going to jail tonight." But they would always talk her way out of it. Especially the oldest who did two tours. The way I always described it was "those who did 'nam have a lot less regard for the consequences of their actions than a 'normal' person."

When you've been to war once or twice, slapping the **** out of some smart mouthed 25 year old is minor by comparison.

And I'm not talking small-town America where everyone knows everyone, we're talking St. Louis, Kansas City, Phoenix ,and LA when this **** happened! One of the best ones was my 21st birthday party. I was the only one sober enough to drive home!
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Yes, indeed, @timwinters! The stuff we ask our soldiers to deal with nowadays, and then we expect them to reintegrate into "polite" society seamlessly? It's a tall order. One minute they're commanding multi-zillion dollar equipment and platoons of men to eliminate bad guys who look just like the good guys. The next minute, some pencil-neck HR guy is telling them they don't have enough experience or a clean enough record to pump gas.
 
midlifeflyer said:
That's exactly the reason to speak with a professional. A lawyer who understands both the criminal process and the aviation ramifications will be able to explain it. A few years of experience tells me that most people charged with criminal offenses don't really understand what they are from a technical standpoint - misdemeanor, felony, enpungeable or not, availability of diversion programs, seriousness with which similar offenses are treated in a particular jurisdiction. It's a combination of both legal and practical knowledge.

The applicable reporting requirements, and there may be multiple ones, are based are on exactly what you are charged with, exactly what interim actions are taken by courts and administrative bodies, exactly what dispositions are made of the charges, whether dismissals, conviction, diversion programs, or something else.

Brief example: a pilot was charged with reckless driving. The pilot's defense lawyer and DA put together a very sweet deal. Except for one problem - it was a deal that could negatively affect the pilot's aviation career aspirations. The defense lawyer didn't understand that, so at the pilot's request, I spoke with the pilot's defense lawyer so he would understand what those aviation ramifications were. The result was a less "sweet deal" - the DA was happy to oblige since she viewed it as worse than what she offered - but much, much better for the pilot's aviation career.

Even without knowing what you were charged with or what community it is in, I can envision multiple ways it would be handled by a court, some of which may trigger reporting requirement and some of which may not. That's where professional advice comes in.
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Midlife, you've quoted the same passage I cited earlier (that references vague "administrative actions" with a blanket wave at parts 61 and 67 in globo) that gave me pause. I think it came from an FAQ. Have you run across a pertinent definition of "administrative actions?" I haven't found one in the FAA context despite several minutes of casual perusal. It could mean almost anything.

I wouldn't be inclined to peg a significant affirmative reporting duty on a non-binding musing of an agency's webmaster. FAQs are notorious for being, if not wrong, at least misleadingly incomplete. Detrimental reliance on them probably won't wash.

Where are the agency's official policy interpretations of the FAR that are valid under Perez v. Mortgage Bankers? Just curious what you've run across if you feeling like sharing.
 
Circuit Flyer said:
Midlife, you've quoted the same passage I cited earlier (that references vague "administrative actions" with a blanket wave at parts 61 and 67 in globo) that gave me pause. I think it came from an FAQ. Have you run across a pertinent definition of "administrative actions?" I haven't found one in the FAA context despite several minutes of casual perusal. It could mean almost anything.

I wouldn't be inclined to peg a significant affirmative reporting duty on a non-binding musing of an agency's webmaster. FAQs are notorious for being, if not wrong, at least misleadingly incomplete. Detrimental reliance on them probably won't wash.

Where are the agency's official policy interpretations of the FAR that are valid under Perez v. Mortgage Bankers? Just curious what you've run across if you feeling like sharing.
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Keep in mind that interpretations are contextual - not in a vacuum. In the case of a medical certificate (61.15 does't use the phrase), we We're talking about "administrative actions" that result in denial, suspension, etc of driving privileges. I take it as plain English - an action by an state or federal administrative body that creates a result, not a "term of art" that needs either substantive or interpretive regulation per Perez.
 
Right. 61.15 is clearly aimed at motor vehicle involvement. The FAQ, if that's what it is, seems more focused on 67, which talks about substances (including alcohol). If Part 67 mentions admin actions, though, I haven't found it yet. Nor is it on the 8500-8 (which covers admin actions affecting driving privileges).

In sum, I can't find actual regulatory authority for the proposition that an administrative action (presumably including an arrest without conviction) not involving a motor vehicle is reportable. But I guess that's where the specialists come in. It could be in a subregulatory policy statement.
 
bbchien said:
(1) Do you have any prior publically documented alcohol events
(2) Did you blow.
These two are CRITICAL to what's going to happen.....
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What is the correct action for any of us should we be caught up in such a situation? (Yeah, I know, never get there in the first place). Do we always blow into the BAC test machine no matter what? Are we required to report the arrest to the correct division of the FAA? What else should we know?

There is some amount of misinformation out there on what airmen should do if they have a LEO encounter while intoxicated. So, Dr. Bruce, if you can educate us, that would be most helpful.
 
@JCranford -- as a LEO, you might be able to answer this.... What are the criteria for a citizen to be brought in on public intoxication? If you are in a home or a drinking establishment, can you be charged with it?
 
@AggieMike88. Non-aviation related... my BIL is a LEO and has always told me NEVER blow. It's easier to fight/reduce without blowing. Unfortunately I did blow over 20 years ago. No issues since and the FAA didn't have an issue with it being a one time event so far in the past so far in the past. I Chalk it up to bad decisions as a kid (20 yo at 21st b-day party for a friend - ripe for bad decision making opportunities). We all made a few some of us got caught and some were lucky.
 
AggieMike88 said:
What is the correct action for any of us should we be caught up in such a situation? (Yeah, I know, never get there in the first place). Do we always blow into the BAC test machine no matter what? Are we required to report the arrest to the correct division of the FAA? What else should we know?

There is some amount of misinformation out there on what airmen should do if they have a LEO encounter while intoxicated. So, Dr. Bruce, if you can educate us, that would be most helpful.
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The state law issues are going to be more significant than the FAA issues for many. On a dui arrest in most states you are between a rock and a hard place with respect to the FAA. Fail the breathalyzer and your drivers license gets lifted, a reportable event under 61.15. Refuse the breathalyzer and your drivers license gets lifted, a reportable event under 61.15. Short of passing at the scene or a breath or blood test right away, you are usually going to have a reportable event.

I'll leave a complete answer to Bruce, but most of what happens on the medical end has more to do with how the case is disposed - where they look into such things as programs and rehab, than what happens at the time if arrest,
 
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