Are you safer flying IFR in VFR weather?

[nddons]

Man, I hate having to take evasive action.

I was flying from MLI to UES today, and had VFR flight following the whole way. Traffic was light, and I almost thought RFD approach had forgotten about me for about 45 minutes. Then shortly before being handed off to MKE approach, while on a heading of 060, RFD approach advised me of an aircraft at my altitude (5,500 ft) at my 9:00, 5 miles, maneuvering. I stated negative contact. Another minute or so, and approach stated that it was still at my 9:00, 5 miles, heading east. I still had negative contact - it was somewhat hazy. Shortly thereafter, approach tells me it's at my 10:00, same altitude, 1 MILE! I saw it then!, and approach advised me to take evasive action, and descend, which I had already started. My daughter saw it pass off my right wing, and we were in the clear.

So why is this in the IFR forum? I'm on the XC portion of my IFR training, and am really learning to appreciate the benefits of filing IFR, even in clear weather. I fully understand that whether I'm VFR or IFR, I have complete responsibility for traffic avoidance unless in the clouds. However, my question is - do you feel any safer at IFR altitudes, since the presumption is that it is not littered with VFR pilots at those even-thousand altitudes? Does the bubble of airspace used to control IFR traffice make you feel somewhat safer than flying VFR? Again, I know to presume the worst and keep my head on a swivel, regardless of whether I'm VFR or IFR.

Last question: do you file IFR for most of your cross countries?

 

[gprellwitz]

Well, if it was someone practicing maneuvers, they could have been going through IFR altitudes as well as VFR altitudes, so relying on the altitude to keep you safe doesn't seem like a good idea. I agree, having an extra set of eyes out there looking is a good thing, as long as it doesn't make one complacent about looking oneself! I've found that I tend not to file IFR for trips under about 150NM. Heading down to Key West or something, we're planning to file, however!

 

[Teller1900]

Long story short, no; I don't feel any safer at IFR altitudes than VFR. In fact, I've had many more close calls (but thankfully no near-misses!) when I was IFR than VFR. The two worst (requiring the most aggressive maneuvers) both occurred when I was in level flight and a VFR target wondered into my path. Bottom line, you should probably never feel completely safe until you're chalked and chained in your La-z-boy. It's a little better once you start operating in Class A airspace, but even then you're not completely bullet proof.

I have about the same paradigm as Grant when it comes to filing for cross countries. Shorter stuff, I'll go VFR, but if it's more than 100-150nm or there's any question about the wx I'll almost always go IFR. Worst case scenario I don't pick it up or I cancel early.

 

[bbchien]

(1) I feel safer at IFR altitudes above 10,000 feet. Fewer VFR only(s) wandering about maneuvering, not seeing. No true security, however.
(2) Nearly all the time IFR.

 

[kkoran]

Stan,

What would the "...bubble of airspace used to control IFR traffic" (I assume you're referring to the IFR separation standards) have to do with protection from VFR aircraft?

 

[nddons]

Stan,

What would the "...bubble of airspace used to control IFR traffic" (I assume you're referring to the IFR separation standards) have to do with protection from VFR aircraft?

Yes, I was just using shorthand. It's late! :wink2:

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Hmm. I would say that I feel safer, in our neck of the woods, any time I'm at or above 6,000 feet. Most of the short VFR cross country stuff is going to be at 4500 or 5500, and most of the maneuvering is going on below 6000 as well. Above 8000 there's even less other traffic. Of course, above 10,000 there's less yet, but it might be going a lot faster!

And no, I don't file IFR on most cross countries. If there's going to be any chance of weather I do, and if I'm going to an area I've never been before I might, but if it's a quick fun flight on a CAVU day, I'm gonna get my briefing and GO! Mostly because the chances of me wanting to "play around" (you know "Hey, look at that!" type stuff) are much greater and I don't want to bother ATC with a bunch of deviation requests. On my 5800nm adventure last summer, I air-filed once, was IFR for maybe a half hour including .3 of IMC, and canceled when I was in the clear again. That said, I do probably file for at least half of my 300+nm cross countries.

Pick whatever fits the situation!

 

[Areeda]

I'm with Kent. On our 5000+ mile cross country last year my wife and I filed one leg and had one pop-up, both weather related.

On CAVU days I see very little benefit. On board traffic on the other hand helps a lot.

I used to fly IFR everywhere but that caused my VFR skills to atropy. Now I file when I need to and keep both current and proficient.

Joe

 

[timwinters]

I fly a fair amount of x/c and will either file an instrument plan or pick up flight following. Probably at nearly a 50/50 split.

I probably average one traffic encounter a month that ATC hasn't called. Traffic within 1 mile and close to my altitude. This happens both IFR and VFR.

No, I don't feel safer.

 

[timwinters]

I fly a fair amount of x/c and will either file an instrument plan or pick up flight following. Probably at nearly a 50/50 split.

I probably average one traffic encounter a month that ATC hasn't called. Traffic within 1 mile and close to my altitude. This happens both IFR and VFR.

No, I don't feel safer.

I had a pretty good one last month as I was flying home form Appleton, WI on an instrument plan. I was in Rockford Approaches airspace and I watched a Bonanza pass of my port side, opposite direction, within 1/2 mile, not 500' below me.

I called RFD and inquired as to whether they had that traffic.

"Yes, but I was too busy to call it" was the reply.

It had been an extremely quiet flight as the weather wasn't the greatest and I almost responded with "those three radio transmissions in the last 15 minutes are more than you can handle?"...but I didn't.

The point being, trust only yourself and if you're not too good at spotting traffic it helps to have Diana in the right seat!

 

[dmccormack]

I file whenever I'm going someplace as opposed to "just flying."

I do it to maintain proficiency in the system.

I don't feel any "safer," as you are still responsible to see and avoid when IFR in Visual conditions.

As far as close calls -- idiot behavior in the pattern outweighs IFR "Wow, that was close!" by a factor of 4-1.

But neither are fun.

 

[ScottM]

Last question: do you file IFR for most of your cross countries?

Yes. For the exact reasons that you stated in your post. It is easier to file, assures that I will be getting services and also has the added benefit of keeping me in practice for when I really do need to file. Given the difficulties of getting flight following around Chicago filing IFR is a better way to go if you want advisories. I also will tend to fly higher with IFR than I would if just doing a short VFR hop. This too will help keep you away from people practicing maneuvers and such.

 

[Ted]

Hold on here. If you're on an IFR flight plan in VFR conditions, you're still expected to visually look out for traffic. Being IFR may not have helped you here, and I would argue that you'd be no safer. Note that ATC actually did call out your traffic for you. Based on your description, you and ATC did exactly what you were supposed to. If it's a busy area, the other aircraft should have been talking to ATC and informed them of the flight maneuvers. I've had time when ATC hasn't called out traffic for me on an IFR plan in VFR conditions very well, and then I see this Dash 8, 767, etc. fairly close.

The problem you had was your altitude. Most VFR pilots in the eastern 1/2 or 2/3 of the country (east of the Rockies) will hover around in the 5500 and lower altitudes. Maybe go up to 6500, and you'll pretty much NEVER see them above 10,000. This is why I pretty much always try to fly around above 10,000 when the winds are favorable and the trip is long enough to warrant that altitude. You get better fuel economy, and you likely won't see a soul. Plus it's smoother (usually). I will, however, always pick up flight following.

Now, let's take an example of a trip I made where I filed IFR from Youngstown back to Williamsport in the Mooney. I was up at 9,000 ft above a broken layer of clouds that went down to 4500 ft. This was in winter, and it was prime icing conditions for being in the clouds. As such, I was making a point of staying out of them, because ice scares me. Then, for the one time out of a billion, two aircraft descend on Williamsport at the same time. The other one (a Cessna 414 with FIKI that was behind me) was preferred by ATC over me in the Mooney, so ATC instructed me to descend to 6,000 (right in the cloud) and hold there. No way. ATC was rude about this, persisted, and I ended up filing an ASRS report. Point is that it was a situation where I should have just been VFR. Then I just can't go into a cloud, end of story.

Also, unless you have an IFR approved GPS and can file /G, you are legally limited to your VORs/DME/etc. Sure, you can request an assigned heading based on your VFR GPS (and frequently will get it), but that can still get annoying, and ATC technically doesn't have to let you do what you want. If you're VFR, you're free and clear so long as you don't end up in restricted airspace.

Now, when do I file IFR? I file IFR (obviously) when the weather warrants it, when being in a cloud isn't going to pose a potentially hazardous condition for me (ice), or when I need to get through a cloud layer. I also file when the airspace will make it simpler (i.e. when going into a Bravo area or the DC ADIZ). I do file to keep current in the system. I like being more connected to the system and I like the relief it gives of things like "remain clear of Bravo airspace." Do I feel safer? No, not really. I do feel safer up at higher altitudes where it's pretty much just me and the sky.

For situations like yours, I have considered getting some form of TCAS to help me out, but haven't considered it enough to spend the money.

 

[poadeleted20]

I often file IFR in VFR weather, but not for safety reasons. Sometimes it helps me get through airspace (Potomac doesn't like to allow VFR traffic to transit through their B-space to points beyond), sometimes it's because it provides more certainty of no delays/hassles if the weather at the destination may require a descent through a scattered-broken layer, stuff like that. However, traffic separation is not one of the reasons I do that.

 

[OtisAir]

Yes, I file IFR for most all cross country trips and usually fly them bixtweenst 7000 and 11000 feet. Not too much VFR traffic within those altitudes usually. From a retired controller, please remember that traffic calls are not a primary job responsibility of the controller and shall be given only if time permits, however in Class A and B airspace the controller is responsible for your separation (even VFR in the Class B, that's one reason you have to receive a a "clearance" to enter Class B .

Also, many times whilst flying cross country on an IFR flight plan, I've avoided undue delays that I probably would have received had I filed and flown VFR.

 

[twdeckard]

Here's a question for the center folks, how often are you suppressing 1200 targets? Does it vary by facility? Are the TRACONs different?

 

[bstratt]

VFR on short hops in Chicago environs mainly due to circuitous routes ATC takes you if you're IFR, but other than that I usually fly IFR.

 

[airdale]

I tend to file IFR unless I am in an area where I'm pretty sure I won't be denied flight following.

Another reason not yet mentioned is dealing with hot MOAs. I was on a short leg from Waycross GA to Savannah one time. That is no big deal until you realize there is basically a wall of MOAs between the two. I left Waycross and picked up my clearance in the air; the controller immediately gave me about a 120 degree turn to skirt the MOA wall to the south. Then, almost as quickly, he gave me an on-course heading because the MOA had cleared. It probably saved me 1/2 hour of flying compared to checking before a VFR departure and concluding I had to fly around the wall.

 

[dmccormack]

IFR filing doesn't always save time/distance. Whenever I leave KLNS to fly west they seem intent on giving me some circuitous routing around KMDT (which is a TRSA).

Once I get west of Route 81, I usually get "Cleared direct to Rostraver..."

Flying into NY/NJ can be a bit of a pain IFR (Waaaaaaaay out over water).

 

[CJones]

I file IFR on any solo trips of over an hour or so in VFR. If my wife is along and it's VMC, I don't file so I can maneuver for turbulence on her behalf. Most (all) of my recent trips have been non-solo, so I really haven't filed IFR in VMC for quite a while.

I also like to get up around 9,10,11k for all cross-countries when wind allows - I'll take a 3-5 kt headwind in exchange for higher altitude and better TAS. As the CFI said when I did the RV transition training: "One good thing about RV's is that they climb well enough to get you out of Indian territory quickly." (Indian territory = 4-5-6k altitudes where most Cherokees, Tomahawks, Warriors, etc. fly )

 

[airdale]

IFR filing doesn't always save time/distance. Whenever I leave KLNS to fly west they seem intent on giving me some circuitous routing around KMDT (which is a TRSA).

Yeah. I will sometimes file beginning at a VOR south of our nearby Bravo or will tell the tower that I'll take off VFR with a flight following squawk and pick up my clearance en route. That makes the TRACON guys quite happy.

 

[dmccormack]

Yeah. I will sometimes file beginning at a VOR south of our nearby Bravo or will tell the tower that I'll take off VFR with a flight following squawk and pick up my clearance en route. That makes the TRACON guys quite happy.

Good plan.

 

[nddons]

I file IFR on any solo trips of over an hour or so in VFR. If my wife is along and it's VMC, I don't file so I can maneuver for turbulence on her behalf. Most (all) of my recent trips have been non-solo, so I really haven't filed IFR in VMC for quite a while.

I also like to get up around 9,10,11k for all cross-countries when wind allows - I'll take a 3-5 kt headwind in exchange for higher altitude and better TAS. As the CFI said when I did the RV transition training: "One good thing about RV's is that they climb well enough to get you out of Indian territory quickly." (Indian territory = 4-5-6k altitudes where most Cherokees, Tomahawks, Warriors, etc. fly )

Good point. I flew outbound at 6,500, but was hesitant to go to 7,500 on the east-bound return leg as there was a heavy haze layer*, thus the 5,500 altitude. Of course, the 172 might take a day and a half to get to the 9-10k cruising altitude.

(*It was one of those days where ASOS and METARS were saying Sky Clear, but you couldn't see the sky because of the clouds or haze.)

 

[gismo]

(1) I feel safer at IFR altitudes above 10,000 feet. Fewer VFR only(s) wandering about maneuvering, not seeing. No true security, however.
(2) Nearly all the time IFR.

Ditto, ditto.

I do have an active traffic system that's a lot better than my own eyes and is never too busy to call out traffic but it can't see anything without a working transponder. I probably shouldn't but I do relax my sky scan a bit when I'm enroute IFR and before I got the TAS when in actual IMC I was probably less secure traffic wise since I was completely dependent on ATC for separation, now I've got a backup.

 

[roncachamp]

I tend to file IFR unless I am in an area where I'm pretty sure I won't be denied flight following.

Another reason not yet mentioned is dealing with hot MOAs. I was on a short leg from Waycross GA to Savannah one time. That is no big deal until you realize there is basically a wall of MOAs between the two. I left Waycross and picked up my clearance in the air; the controller immediately gave me about a 120 degree turn to skirt the MOA wall to the south. Then, almost as quickly, he gave me an on-course heading because the MOA had cleared. It probably saved me 1/2 hour of flying compared to checking before a VFR departure and concluding I had to fly around the wall.

You don't have to fly around MOAs if you're VFR, you can go through them.

 

[airdale]

You don't have to fly around MOAs if you're VFR, you can go through them.

Yup. Lots of things you can legally do that I don't. Part 91 zero/zero takeoffs, flying through hot MOAs VFR, ...

 

[dmccormack]

Yup. Lots of things you can legally do that I don't. Part 91 zero/zero takeoffs, flying through hot MOAs VFR, ...

Isn't there a cliche handy somewhere....?

Oh yeah....


"Legal isn't necessarily safe."


Anyway, it depends on the MOA. Some are never hot.

 

[Anthony]

Heard from Pax Approach (not in a restricted area or MOA). "Grumman 641, company aircraft at your six o'clock."

Not even a Tomcat would touch a Tiger.

 

[Everskyward]

Like others have said, there is less traffic above 10,000' but I don't think it matters if you are IFR or VFR.

When I flew small airplanes doing mapping I only filed IFR when I had to because of the weather or if the job was above 18,000'. I almost always flew X-C VFR. That way I could choose my own route and altitudes. I generally enjoyed staying low, and the minimum IFR altitudes out here are quite high.

 

[nyoung]

I fly VFR on 90% of my flights. I only file IFR when weather dictates that it is necessary.

Regarding traffic avoidance:
1. I try to fly high on almost all flights. I often will climb to 9.5, 10.5, or 11.5 just to go 60-70 miles. This is a total waste of time, but I prefer the smoother air and lesser traffic.

2. I use VFR FF when on XC's or if I am in a busy area (ex: Chicago lakeshore flight).

3. Zaon TCAD onboard. It is hooked up to the 396 which does a good job picking up traffic... but since it is a dash mount on a lowwing... it misses traffic that is climbing from underneat the plane. Better than nothing, but not perfect.

Man, I hate having to take evasive action.

Last question: do you file IFR for most of your cross countries?

 

[nyoung]

Regarding FF & MOAs. I have heard (over the air ) center advise that they cannot continue VFR-FF advisories if a pilot continues into an active MOA.

The few times I have heard this, the pilot ended up making a course deviation and went around the MOA.

It would be interesting to know if anyone has ever received FF while crossing a hot MOA.

Yup. Lots of things you can legally do that I don't. Part 91 zero/zero takeoffs, flying through hot MOAs VFR, ...

 

[Anthony]

If its hot, I go around an MOA. However, I would think they would continue FF even if its hot as its better to be talking to you than picking through aluminum on the ground.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

The higher above 5000 AGL or so, the somewhat safer it starts to get no matter what you file but, fileing IFR means you've got more piloting skills documented in general than a VFR only pilot, so that's a bit safer overall.

 

[sba55]

No, I don't feel any safer IFR.

Yes, I almost always file IFR for X/C, but not because of the service. Around here, it doesn't matter if you're IFR or not because you will _always_ get VFR advisories if you ask. Norcal Approach controllers are supposed to operate all their airspace like class C, so radar services are always available. I don't know about Oakland or LA Center, but I have never ever been turned down, even during the LAX/SFO arrival rush hours.

I file IFR to stay proficient and because it's just so much more convenient. VFR is a lot of work.

-Felix

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Yes, I almost always file IFR for X/C, but not because of the service. Around here, it doesn't matter if you're IFR or not because you will _always_ get VFR advisories if you ask. Norcal Approach controllers are supposed to operate all their airspace like class C, so radar services are always available. I don't know about Oakland or LA Center, but I have never ever been turned down, even during the LAX/SFO arrival rush hours.

Norcal Approach controllers are AWESOME.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

but, fileing IFR means you've got more piloting skills documented in general than a VFR only pilot, so that's a bit safer overall.

Huh? I'm pretty sure a mid-air will kill me equally whether I'm filed IFR or not... And I'm pretty sure it'll kill me no matter what my ticket says (or doesn't).

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I file whenever I'm going someplace as opposed to "just flying."

I do it to maintain proficiency in the system.

Several people have said this, and I don't understand it. What kind of proficiency do you need in "the system"? Talking to ATC?

Maybe I don't get it because I fly out of a class C airport and I'm always talking to ATC, but is it really such a hard thing to do that it takes practice to remain proficient?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

The problem you had was your altitude. Most VFR pilots in the eastern 1/2 or 2/3 of the country (east of the Rockies) will hover around in the 5500 and lower altitudes.

I would say east of the Missouri, not east of the Rockies. My last overnight on my big trip I stayed at Front Range airport just east of Denver - Field elevation 5512. Even a short cross country there is probably going to be at 8500 or 9500. Personally, I like to be at least 2000 AGL, preferably 3000, to allow for time to attempt a restart in the event of an engine failure and also to stay out of the way of the traffic patterns of airports I go near.

Nebraska isn't as flat as it looks - NE, the Dakotas, etc are all tilted eastward, and there's a few thousand feet of difference in the ground elevations between the east and west borders.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Also, many times whilst flying cross country on an IFR flight plan, I've avoided undue delays that I probably would have received had I filed and flown VFR.

Here's another one that baffles me. What delays do you receive VFR? Flying IFR, IMHO, is much more likely to result in delays: You might have to wait to take off from an uncontrolled field because there's a plane on approach, you might get a bunch of vectors you don't like, and if you don't have a /G or /I airplane you can't fly direct.

I remember figuring when I was a student pilot that anyone who was instrument rated would file IFR all the time, and was surprised that the flight school manager/DPE did not. Maybe now that I have the rating, the "cool factor" of simply flying IFR is gone. (The cool factor of flying IMC is still there, though. )

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Good point. I flew outbound at 6,500, but was hesitant to go to 7,500 on the east-bound return leg as there was a heavy haze layer*, thus the 5,500 altitude. Of course, the 172 might take a day and a half to get to the 9-10k cruising altitude.

(*It was one of those days where ASOS and METARS were saying Sky Clear, but you couldn't see the sky because of the clouds or haze.)

Stan,

I usually fly higher when there's haze, so I can get *out* of the haze layer. You're right about getting the 172 up to 10K though!