Are asian pilots as poor pilots as they are drivers?

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vince

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Vince
Asian drivers are notoriously poor drivers. Does this spill over to aviation?

Now before anyone starts a rant about racism, this does NOT include asian americans who have grown up here or fully assimilated and drive just the same if not better than mainstream.

There is something about the various asian cultures that makes them very poor car drivers and you all know what I mean.
 
Are you worried about them being on the low approach to OSH with you in your fast plane?
 
I was not Pete
I was not Hocky
And I'm NOT Vince

No PMs....
 
There are bad drivers from all walks of life, (Florida has em all). I believe it's no different when it comes to airplanes.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I was not Pete
I was not Hocky
And I'm NOT Vince

No PMs....
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:dunno:

Don't you have some loitering to do? Maybe head out to DFW and, you know, stroll onto the runway and take some pretty pictures of the awesome planes? :rofl:

No, you are not me. Not by any stretch of the imagination. Now how about we get back on the topic?
 
Are white people as dumb, relative to Asians, as their standardized test scores suggest?
 
vince said:
... this does NOT include Asian Americans who have grown up here or fully assimilated and drive just the same if not better than mainstream.
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Seems they found some cultural thing in the training and cockpit protocol at fault for the SFO debacle.

Sorry to disagree but a high school buddy and american born child of Japanese parents is the worst driver I know. Most of those around here simply learned to drive 2 weeks before they took the test and have NO experience at all. Explains why they come to a complete stop on on-ramps....

They train an Asian group at Castle near Merced. 11,800' runway. One kid decides, after missing his turnoff, to reverse and back taxi while my buddy was almost over the numbers....don't know how that tower keeps their patience. :redface:
 
wax on, wax off.

that's all I can really offer to this thread.
 
Poor drivers? I'd like to see some American drivers try to navigate the crazy streets of China the way their taxi drivers do in a skillfully chaotic way.

Higher accident rate, sure.
 
vince said:
Asian drivers are notoriously poor drivers. Does this spill over to aviation?

Now before anyone starts a rant about racism, this does NOT include asian americans who have grown up here or fully assimilated and drive just the same if not better than mainstream.

There is something about the various asian cultures that makes them very poor car drivers and you all know what I mean.
Click to expand...

Here's my take:

Asian drivers:

Southeast Asian roadways tend to be very poor, hence the traffic speeds are generally very slow, except outside of the major populated areas or where new expressways have been built. Their skill set is slow speed maneuvering in intensely thick, unorganized traffic. They do that better than "we" do it over here. Where their skill set starts to fall apart is when the speeds pick up. Then you see some horrendous accidents.

The rules are very different over there, and the few rules that exist aren't enforced, so they are conditioned to operating in a different environment. Case in point: Right of way. The bigger vehicle has the right of way. Period. It has to be that way or cars and trucks could never move about when 95% of the vehicles on the roads are small motorbikes. If you make a left turn in to traffic, you can't wait for it to stop because it never stops. You pull out slowly, and let the motorbikes merge around you. If you're driving a truck, you pull out slowly and let the cars and motorbikes merge around you. I'll be honest with you, I think driving in that kind of traffic over there makes me a better driver in heavy traffic over here.

Asian pilots:

The problem is there is no GA to speak of in Asia and no significant commercial operations outside of scheduled airlines, and the feedstock for most Asian airlines are not ex military pilots, or American pilots anymore. They take people with no flight experience, throw them in simulators, then throw them in passenger jets. These people are very good at learning and managing systems but they DON'T KNOW HOW TO HAND FLY A PLANE. Because they've never done it outside of a simulator. This isn't my assessment by the way, it's what VN airlines pilots that I know tell me. An exception is JAL, who at one point used to send all their pilot trainees to KAPC and teach them ground up, starting with Bonanzas, then to King Airs, and then on to the airline training.

It's an experience and training issue, and to a lesser degree a cultural issue, not a racial issue.
 
I never heard someone say: "I'm a bad driver" It seems like it's always the other persons fault. Sometimes people need to look into the mirror.

And if you need to ask, No I am not Asian!
 
vince said:
:dunno:

Don't you have some loitering to do? Maybe head out to DFW and, you know, stroll onto the runway and take some pretty pictures of the awesome planes? :rofl:

No, you are not me. Not by any stretch of the imagination. Now how about we get back on the topic?
Click to expand...

Channeling Kelso; BURN! :yesnod:

As for Asians being bad drivers, I really have no idea. My wife is from that part of the world, and she is a horrible driver. The only metal she ever bent was backing down our difficult driveway in the mountains with boulders on each side to keep the car from tumbling off the hill. Her three friends who are all from the Asian continent are also pretty bad drivers.

I would go out on a limb and opine that just calling them 'bad' really isn't fair. As a population of 4, I can say that they are inefficient drivers who waste fuel, time, and other peoples fuel and time. But - they seem to be safe enough because I think they realize the limitations and don't push it like drivers in Paris or Riyadh SA.
 
Most can be attributed to some sort of observational bias. You see a bad driver who looks like you, they are just a bad driver. You see a bad asian driver, well, then asians are bad drivers.

Kinda like this:

 
Why do we refuse to accept a genetic or cultural basis for varied ability? We accept and celebrate such differences in domestic animals.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Why do we refuse to accept a genetic or cultural basis for varied ability? We accept and celebrate such differences in domestic animals.
Click to expand...

Because we are 'evolved' and pointing out differences in different cultures is not PC. So, frex if I were point out that people from Kenya, who have a very low BMI, and tend to run a lot at altitude for generations make good marathon runners, that would be non-PC, which requires I have the disclaimer below.

(no disrespect toward at Kenyan marathoners)
 
Vince, are you ****ing kidding me?

I'm an Asian pilot, I also only drive stick shift unless it's a Mercedes. I've got lots of advanced driver training way above and beyond what is required in the US. I would say the USA has the worst drivers in the world when it comes to courtesy. Germany has the best.
 
MSPAviator said:
Vince, are you ****ing kidding me?

I'm an Asian pilot, I also only drive stick shift unless it's a Mercedes. I've got lots of advanced driver training way above and beyond what is required in the US. I would say the USA has the worst drivers in the world when it comes to courtesy. Germany has the best.
Click to expand...
Courtesy is not a proper measure of driving skill.
 
MSPAviator said:
Vince, are you ****ing kidding me?

I'm an Asian pilot, I also only drive stick shift unless it's a Mercedes. I've got lots of advanced driver training way above and beyond what is required in the US. I would say the USA has the worst drivers in the world when it comes to courtesy. Germany has the best.
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It is a well known fact for non-US born asian drivers fresh off the boat that they are horrible drivers. You cannot argue against this point. It is a FACT. I'm sorry that this is the situation. It is not a genetics issue it is a cultural issue. Like I said right up front in my first post, US born asians or assimilated asians (most likely such as yourself) are not in this category.

Yes Germany has better drivers than the US. But Germany also has fewer asian drivers. Maybe you have stumbled on the reason? :dunno:
 
But he's right, Germany has mostly excellent drivers. Of all the places I've been in the world, I rate Russians as the worst overall, Middle east(only parts I've been to) are pretty bad, and most of SE Asia is not too bad. Koreans seem pretty darn good on the road.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Why do we refuse to accept a genetic or cultural basis for varied ability? We accept and celebrate such differences in domestic animals.
Click to expand...

Because such assumptions are wrong. There is much more individual variation than perceived "cultural" difference, so such "information" is completely unactionable and can only result in stupid assumptions.

There was a time when white Americans assumed black people couldn't handle machinery. That's been proven severely wrong.

As someone who has grown up in an Asian neighborhood, and still occasionally hangs out in a different one, the initial assumption is absolutely, positively wrong. The worst drivers are those whose goals are different from just getting around. Like "hypermiling" or showing off or eating breakfast.

And it sure sounds like Pete is back.
 
I am a little offended by this thread. My wife is Asian. She grew up in a poor third world country. Growing up she didn't have the advantages that almost all Americans have over her. She has been here 4 1/2 years now. In that time she has earned her drivers license. It cost me $7.67 more per year in insurance to add her. She has earned a master degree in accounting, volunteers at our church at least 3 days a week, is a substitute teacher at the public schools and has EARNED her American citizenship. She did not have the advantage of watching her parents drive everyday as most people here have done.

And talking about driving in big Asian cities. I used to race cars, not drag racing. I have been on two mile ovals at speeds around 180. I have been on 1/4 mile ovals where things happens so fast that if you have to think you have already crashed. But driving in any big Asian city scares the holy ned out of me.


Want to walk across the street? Pick out a small opening and go. One lane at a time. No one will wait for you. I thought they were honking their horn at me to get out of the way, until I found out they were warning other drivers that a pedestrian is in the street. Think that happens in the US?

And fear? Tell a taxi driver you need to be some place quickly. Once I needed to get to an airport. I told the taxi driver I am running late. He took off like a bullet, honking and swerving. This was at night. He turned into a very dark little side street that had a barricade blocking it. He rolled down the window and handed a person some cash. They opened the gate and off we go. I grabbed the driver by his collar and told him that if he stops for any reason I will remove his head. We got to the other side and they tore the gate open because the driver is not stopping.

Watch jeepney drivers in Manilla. Those vehicles sure don't meet any safety standards that the USA requires. No power anything. More tread on my finger than on the tires. I watched one jeepney driver drive, honk his horn, eat fried chicken and collect money all at the same time. One hand on the steering wheel, one hand on lunch, forearm honking, shifting with his knee, and holding his coin bucket between his legs. And rubbing fender guards with the jeepney next to it. Now top speed was only 30 miles an hour but this guy was not a bad driver. I found him fascinatingly talented.

My wife has been driving ever since she arrived in America. She still feels uncomfortable at interstate speeds. Her parking is still a little off. I don't have a little tiny Ford Thundercougorfalconbird, or a Tiny Speck made in Brazil for GM. I have a GMC 2500HD with the Duramax engine. That is what my wife learned to drive in. And she is only 4' 10" tall. I had to make a special seat cushion for her to sit in. She has her drivers license but she only drives when I am with her. I try to teach her all the little things I have learned in 40 years of driving. She is getting a 3 year old Subaru for her next birthday, but please don't tell her.

Next time you are on an interstate, look at the truck drivers. Look at how many aren't originally from America.
 
Zeldman said:
She did not have the advantage of watching her parents drive everyday as most people here have done.
Click to expand...

I'm fairly sure that was the OP's point, stated in a roundabout way. Not her fault.
 
If a culture selects for variations over time that culture ends up with more of them. Surely I could try out litters of Chinese pugs to find my next bird dog, one must have the variation that makes it as good(or better) then a classic pointing breed no?
MAKG1 said:
Because such assumptions are wrong. There is much more individual variation than perceived "cultural" difference, so such "information" is completely unactionable and can only result in stupid assumptions.

There was a time when white Americans assumed black people couldn't handle machinery. That's been proven severely wrong.

As someone who has grown up in an Asian neighborhood, and still occasionally hangs out in a different one, the initial assumption is absolutely, positively wrong. The worst drivers are those whose goals are different from just getting around. Like "hypermiling" or showing off or eating breakfast.

And it sure sounds like Pete is back.
Click to expand...
 
Having worked very closely with Asian pilots at an Asian military base I think the big problem those guys have isn't stick and rudder skills so much as this whole 'face' thing.

It's really hard for those guys to speak up if a senior person is in the act of screwing up. I don't think we westerners can fathom how hard that is for many Asian pilots.

For example, I'm sure there are plenty of western airline pilots who have screwed up a visual approach on a nice day. The difference is that their western copilots probably spoke up and corrected the problem before they hit the seawall.
 
Zeldman said:
I am a little offended by this thread. My wife is Asian. She grew up in a poor third world country. Growing up she didn't have the advantages that almost all Americans have over her. She has been here 4 1/2 years now. In that time she has earned her drivers license. It cost me $7.67 more per year in insurance to add her. She has earned a master degree in accounting, volunteers at our church at least 3 days a week, is a substitute teacher at the public schools and has EARNED her American citizenship. She did not have the advantage of watching her parents drive everyday as most people here have done.

And talking about driving in big Asian cities. I used to race cars, not drag racing. I have been on two mile ovals at speeds around 180. I have been on 1/4 mile ovals where things happens so fast that if you have to think you have already crashed. But driving in any big Asian city scares the holy ned out of me.


Want to walk across the street? Pick out a small opening and go. One lane at a time. No one will wait for you. I thought they were honking their horn at me to get out of the way, until I found out they were warning other drivers that a pedestrian is in the street. Think that happens in the US?

And fear? Tell a taxi driver you need to be some place quickly. Once I needed to get to an airport. I told the taxi driver I am running late. He took off like a bullet, honking and swerving. This was at night. He turned into a very dark little side street that had a barricade blocking it. He rolled down the window and handed a person some cash. They opened the gate and off we go. I grabbed the driver by his collar and told him that if he stops for any reason I will remove his head. We got to the other side and they tore the gate open because the driver is not stopping.

Watch jeepney drivers in Manilla. Those vehicles sure don't meet any safety standards that the USA requires. No power anything. More tread on my finger than on the tires. I watched one jeepney driver drive, honk his horn, eat fried chicken and collect money all at the same time. One hand on the steering wheel, one hand on lunch, forearm honking, shifting with his knee, and holding his coin bucket between his legs. And rubbing fender guards with the jeepney next to it. Now top speed was only 30 miles an hour but this guy was not a bad driver. I found him fascinatingly talented.

My wife has been driving ever since she arrived in America. She still feels uncomfortable at interstate speeds. Her parking is still a little off. I don't have a little tiny Ford Thundercougorfalconbird, or a Tiny Speck made in Brazil for GM. I have a GMC 2500HD with the Duramax engine. That is what my wife learned to drive in. And she is only 4' 10" tall. I had to make a special seat cushion for her to sit in. She has her drivers license but she only drives when I am with her. I try to teach her all the little things I have learned in 40 years of driving. She is getting a 3 year old Subaru for her next birthday, but please don't tell her.

Next time you are on an interstate, look at the truck drivers. Look at how many aren't originally from America.
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Bill,

We have a lot more in common then you know. I was just out in Manilla this past April and spent some time in Borocay. I got a chance to ride in a Jeepney for the very first time, (amazing experience). The traffic is
I-N-S-A-N-E there. People drive on the other side of the road all the time. Those Jeepney's need to have Catalytic Converters in the mufflers because the black smoke they generate is way too much. Overall a fun and sad experience at the same time.....(If that makes any sense).

Anytime you generalize there will Always be a place where it doesn't apply!

Due to the fact Mooney sold to a Chinese company, you just might start to see more GA Asian pilots in China which is a good thing.
 
ClimbnSink said:
If a culture selects for variations over time that culture ends up with more of them. Surely I could try out litters of Chinese pugs to find my next bird dog, one must have the variation that makes it as good(or better) then a classic pointing breed no?
Click to expand...

People are not breeding dogs, and you'll understand them a whole lot better when you internalize that. Dogs are selected specifically for certain traits. There is no checklist anywhere that says bad driving means more kids. There are plenty of checklists for breeding dogs.

Just how is your "observation" actionable? Even if it were true -- and it isn't -- what would you propose to do about it? If the answer is nothing, you're engaging in mental masturbation.
 
Are you denying that geographic locations have selected for human traits?
MAKG1 said:
People are not breeding dogs, and you'll understand them a whole lot better when you internalize that. Dogs are selected specifically for certain traits. There is no checklist anywhere that says bad driving means more kids. There are plenty of checklists for breeding dogs.

Just how is your "observation" actionable? Even if it were true -- and it isn't -- what would you propose to do about it? If the answer is nothing, you're engaging in mental masturbation.
Click to expand...
 
I went to high school with a guy named Vince. He was a stupid, farm boy, dickwad. He got run over by a combine when he was 19 while masturbating in the corn.

Therefore, I must believe that all guys named Vince are dumb dickwads who love to masturbate.
 
timwinters said:
I went to high school named Vince. He was a stupid, farm boy, dickwad. He got run over by a combine when he was 19 while masturbating in the corn.

Therefore, I must believe that all guys named Vince are dumb dickwads who love to masturbate.
Click to expand...
Yup Farming selects for dumb farm boys, the pretty ones move off and go to work for Disney.:lol:
 
ClimbnSink said:
Are you denying that geographic locations have selected for human traits?
Click to expand...

Skin color? Sure. Driving habits? Get real.

But by your logic, everyone who grows up in North America ought to be native American. Almost anywhere in the US, a brief look out the window will tell you that is not true.

There are many factors that go into driving and flying habits. You have focused on one that has no significant effect. To what end? Do you want other people to hate Asians?
 
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