Archer III start-up procedure

midlifeflyer

midlifeflyer

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I'm going to be flying an Archer III next week. Although I have plenty of PA-28 experience, I understand the III has a slightly different start-up procedure (as well as overhead switches) involving starting on one mag and then switching on the other after the start.

Can someone explain the full starting procedure it or provide a copy of the page out of the POH/PIM for the model?

Thanks.
 
Mark,

I did maybe 4-5 flights in a III last year. As far as I recall, the single mag start is the only difference. The airplane does not use a key for the starter, so the mags are individual switches.
 
Ken Ibold said:
I did maybe 4-5 flights in a III last year. As far as I recall, the single mag start is the only difference. The airplane does not use a key for the starter, so the mags are individual switches.
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The Grumman series has a similar issue. Only one mag (the left, on the Grummans) has an impulse coupler, which retards the spark for starting. If you activate both mags during starting, the non-coupled mag will fire ahead of the coupled mag, and you have a good chance of a kickback which can trash the gear teeth on the starter and the ring gear. Planes with a unified start/mag switch have internal circuitry which grounds out the non-coupled mag when you turn the key to START. Planes with separate mag and start switches should be started with only the coupled mag activated; the other mag is activated after the engine starts.

Note that there is an authorized modification for the Grummans which allows installation of an impulse coupled mag on the right side, too. This allows starting if anything happens to the other mag's coupler (BTDT -- and got the mod after it happened). In such planes, the engine should be started with both mags activated. If you know what to look for, you can tell by by looking at the mags whether this mod is installed. However, it is most unlikely that your FBO's Archer III has such a mod.
 
Ron Levy said:
Planes with separate mag and start switches should be started with only the coupled mag activated; the other mag is activated after the engine starts.
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I did not know that. This was never mentioned in my Citabria POH, nor by the guy who taught me taildraggers. Pay attention Diana!
 
yea that is interesting, may have to look into the supercub and see if both mags have couplers or not. everyone ive seen always starts it with both switches on and we have never had any kickback or anything.
 
Ron Levy said:
Planes with a unified start/mag switch have internal circuitry which grounds out the non-coupled mag when you turn the key to START. Planes with separate mag and start switches should be started with only the coupled mag activated; the other mag is activated after the engine starts.
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I assume you're referring to all the Skyhawks, Skylanes, etc I've flown as well. But, here's a question.

When I went through spin training in a Super D, he had me turn on both mag toggle switches then hit the starter button. Is the "non-coupled" mag being disabled when depressing the starter switch?
 
KennyFlys said:
When I went through spin training in a Super D, he had me turn on both mag toggle switches then hit the starter button. Is the "non-coupled" mag being disabled when depressing the starter switch?
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Can't say -- you'd have to look in the Super D books to find out. That said, I've never seen a plane with separate mag and start switches in which the starter switch grounds tne non-coupled mag, but there's always the possibility. In addition, it may have dual impulse coupled mags, in which case both mags should be activated for start. Again, can't tell without looking. But if you talk to folks like Les Staples, who builds the SkyTec starter, he'll tell you that it's important for the life and health of the starter and ring gear than any non-coupled mag be deactivated during start.
 
tonycondon said:
yea that is interesting, may have to look into the supercub and see if both mags have couplers or not. everyone ive seen always starts it with both switches on and we have never had any kickback or anything.
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Betcha you been doin' it wrong ;)
 
MauleSkinner said:
Betcha you been doin' it wrong ;)
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i wouldnt doubt it, but it seems incredible that so many of us could be doing it wrong for so long (and through lots and lots of start ups) without shelling out the starter.
 
Just don't hand prop it without anyone on the brakes like that guy at KARR last week!:blueplane:
ApacheBob
 
When we were wiring everything on the RV, we wired the mag switches separately - independent toggle switch for each mag - with a separate push-to-start button to engage the starter. We also wired it so that the right mag (no impulse coupler) grounds out the Push-To-Start switch -- if the right mag is turned on, the starter won't engage.

To start the RV, it is: Master on, Left Mag On, Push to Start, *Firing*, Right Mag On.

The reason for the independent switches has something to do with electronic ignition, which we were preparing to do, but never did. Something about having electronic ignition control prevents the use of a 'grounding out' of the non-coupled mag. I don't know the technicality of it all, I just remember that was the justification that dad gave me for me having to run more wires behind the panel. ha!
 
Thanks to everyone for the answers and references. This won't really be a big issue. My '58 Comanche has a separate starter and mag switch, so I'm used to starting on only one.

Scott, that's one heckova checklist - practically a POH in and of itself! I'll use both that and the Brent copyright violation :D when working on my own.

BTW, anyone know which switches are overhead?
 
midlifeflyer said:
BTW, anyone know which switches are overhead?
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Recalling from memory

On overhead panel:
Fuel Pump
Primer
L Mag
R Mag
Strobes
Nav Lts
Landing Light

NOT on the overhead panel:
Radio Master
AP Master
Pitot Heat
Carb Ice Detector
 
bjohnson said:
Recalling from memory

On overhead panel:
Fuel Pump
Primer
L Mag
R Mag
Strobes
Nav Lts
Landing Light
Click to expand...

From the Piper site:

Overhead Switch Panel containing:

• Bar Guarded Push to Start
• Bar Guarded Electric Primer
• Battery Master
• Alternator
• Electric Fuel Pump
• Landing Lights
• Navigation Lights
• Strobe Lights
• Bar Guarded Magneto Switches, Two
• Dimmer Controls Overhead Lights

BTW, I couldn't remember them all, either. How soon we forget.

BTW2, I am sitting in an Archer III in my avitar, and those are the overhead switches...
 
Strange, I'm looking at my Archer III PIM, P/N 761-868, and in the normal procedures section on page 4-7, normal start, cold engine, it says BOTH mags go on. The amplified procedures later in the section also call for magnetos (not a single magneto).

This is the manual issued July 12, 1995, for SN 2843001 and up.
 

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Ken Ibold said:
Those darn things are a bear on those of us who wear bifocals.
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I think I beat that one with my last prescription. She set the main part of the lens to accommodate the 20-26" I would sit back from the panel as well as normal distant vision. They work pretty well for me and were great on the last flight in a glass panel.

It's worth looking into.
 
TMetzinger said:
Strange, I'm looking at my Archer III PIM, P/N 761-868, and in the normal procedures section on page 4-7, normal start, cold engine, it says BOTH mags go on. The amplified procedures later in the section also call for magnetos (not a single magneto).

This is the manual issued July 12, 1995, for SN 2843001 and up.
Click to expand...
It's entirely possible Piper rigged the wiring so the start switch grounds out the non-coupled mag. Anyone with the schematics handy able to tell for sure on that?
 
TMetzinger said:
Strange, I'm looking at my Archer III PIM, P/N 761-868, and in the normal procedures section on page 4-7, normal start, cold engine, it says BOTH mags go on. The amplified procedures later in the section also call for magnetos (not a single magneto).
Click to expand...

My surecheck checklist calls for MAGS on, and I've always started our club Archer III with both on, no problems.
 
I never got the Archer. Either go to the Arrow or use a Warrior. I never quite saw the need for the Archer.

And the damn overhead panel is an annoyance. If you've got useful stuff to put there, then put it there, otherwise leave the damn switches where they're easy to get at.

/rant

~ Christopher
 
jwriteclub said:
I never got the Archer. Either go to the Arrow or use a Warrior. I never quite saw the need for the Archer.
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Guess you never wanted to carry four adults, which neither the Warrior nor the Arrow would with full fuel. The Archer's greater payload pays off in that respect.
 
Ron Levy said:
Guess you never wanted to carry four adults, which neither the Warrior nor the Arrow would with full fuel. The Archer's greater payload pays off in that respect.
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Huh??:dunno:

Our club Archer has 824 total useful load. Put in full fuel (48g), and you have 536 left. Put two big guys and a couple of flight bags in there, and you're at gross.
 
Ken Ibold said:
I did not know that. This was never mentioned in my Citabria POH, nor by the guy who taught me taildraggers. Pay attention Diana!
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Oops, I wasn't paying attention and almost missed this. :redface:

Just looked it up in my Citabria POM. It says for start:

"Magneto Switches - ON (2)"

I'll go ask on the Citabria forum. Those guys have been too quiet lately and it's time to wake them up.
 
TMetzinger said:
Strange, I'm looking at my Archer III PIM, P/N 761-868, and in the normal procedures section on page 4-7, normal start, cold engine, it says BOTH mags go on. The amplified procedures later in the section also call for magnetos (not a single magneto).

This is the manual issued July 12, 1995, for SN 2843001 and up.
Click to expand...
I asked my question on another forum and one of the answers mentioned that the there is a Supplement 10 to the AFM that changed the starting procedure. If he was correct, that may be what your PIM is missing.

...the difference between a PIM and an AFM.
 
Diana said:
Just looked it up in my Citabria POM. It says for start:

"Magneto Switches - ON (2)"
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In the Decathlon manual it says "MAGNETOS - BOTH ON" and that's the way I was taught.
 
Bill Jennings said:
Huh??:dunno:

Our club Archer has 824 total useful load. Put in full fuel (48g), and you have 536 left. Put two big guys and a couple of flight bags in there, and you're at gross.
Click to expand...
Ain't that the way it is with new planes these days. We could only put three plus bags in a current-production 182 I helped ferry, while our club's 1966 180 Cherokee had a full 1000 lb useful load (full fuel plus four adults or three plus bags -- on 55 less HP than that new 182). But I'll bet a Warrior of any particular vintage has at least 100 lb less useful load than an Archer of the same vintage, while an Arrow's payload is typically about the same as a Warrior's (again, similar vintage).
 
Uh oh, I think I hear keys tapping - are we going to hear about that 150kt Arrow again????:D
 
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