Archer II - Short Field

[TUPilot]

With respect, I'm tempted to follow the POH to the letter on short field takeoff rather than throwing a new task into it.

Good judgement call. Adding more complexity to your takeoff is never a good idea. Hitting your speeds and maintaining directional control are far more important than leaning down to play with the flaps.

Even assuming all goes smoothly, the fact is changing the flap setting mid-roll doesn't have a material impact on performance--you just aren't generating enough drag with flaps 25 at low speeds for it to matter in most applications. People feel the airplane "leap" off the runway when they put in flaps and assume that means they are getting better performance--really they are just turning a gradual liftoff into an abrupt one.

There are places where abrupt flap changes make sense but takeoff isn't one of them.

 

[Perezhr]

Just do a normal landing and takeoff. No need to complicate things. If I can get in and out of there in my Mooney doing normal landing/takeoff without any problems so should you. If windy, and specially if you have a cross wind be careful. I have experienced some shear on short final for runway 33, and the week before I arrived someone came up short and ditched just before the runway (local fisherman got them out with no serious injuries). Phone numbers of several local restaurants are posted on the wall. Call them and they will pick you up at the airport and bring you back.


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[James331]

The flap trick is a old one. Float plane guys use it too.

I don't think he will need it for 2500' in that plane.


If you're concerned do a mock run at your home drome and see how much real estate you eat up, or just take less fuel.

Or find the half way point, if you're not at 70% of VR by 50% of the runway abort the takeoff.

If it were me, I'd do it as you originally posted.

 

[dmspilot]

Hummel field in VA has less than 2,300 ft and big stuff can get into and out of there - a 180hp archer shouldn't have a problem

It's 2270x45 and I actually take student pilots there to practice short field takeoffs and landings because they are used to a 5,000' runway. There is a little bit of a displaced threshold, making the available landing length 2,135'.

I do tell them that it's not really so short that it requires short-field technique, but we do it for practice and to add an extra safety margin...particularly for landings where being 5-10 knots fast on final will cause us to violate the "touch down within the first third of the runway" guideline. Takeoffs are pretty easy.

 

[MAKG1]

The landing in that video was OK. Not great, but plenty safe, even for a much shorter field.

A hint for technique, though, is that you seem to be countering yaw with aileron, leading to a lot of left/right motion. Your passengers will like it more if you do that with rudder.

 

[Indiana_Pilot]

I would just practice short field take offs with 2 notches of flaps. (My favorite) Even my Cherokee 140 at gross weight will pop off the runway and be 100' in the air before you know it. You will probably be off the runway a little over half the way down the short runway you are looking at..

 

[Bill]

just FYI..... I have found that as soon as you touch down dump the flaps and use aerodynamic braking. otherwise on the archer any back pressure with flaps out will put you back in the air.

Then you're landing too fast.

 

[fiveoboy01]

I have a decent amount of time in the Archer II and as MAGK said, I predict it's not an issue. Treat it as a normal takeoff, and maybe adjust your aim point on the landing to touch down slightly sooner.

If you come in high and/or fast, and haven't squeaked the tires on the first 1/3 of the runway, just go around.

IMO 2400 feet isn't short field for the Archer without obstacles or a steep slope.

 

[MAKG1]

IMO 2400 feet isn't short field for the Archer without obstacles or a steep slope.

Or a helluva lot of density altitude.

Not anything you'll ever get on the east coast.

2400 feet would be too short at Lake Tahoe in the summer. Fortunately, the shortest runway in the high country is Lee Vining at 4000 feet. That's a bit uncomfortable on a hot summer day, but it is doable (BTDT).

 

[fiveoboy01]

Same for southern WI, haha.

 

[asechrest]

Well, it was a beautiful day to fly in South Florida. We departed KHWO (North Perry) around 11. I stayed in the pattern for one circuit to see how the plane felt closer to max gross weight than I typically fly. We were around 250 lbs under it after being unable to fit the kids' bikes in the Archer.

Then we headed southwest for a glass smooth flight over the Everglades. As we neared Everglades Airpark I noted that pilots were using runway 33. My overflight of the field confirmed the same with the windsock. I also noted what appeared to be an airplane upside down in the water at the approach end of 33. This was good motivation not to eff it up.

My landing was on-speed and I had plenty of room to spare after the roll out. I used reasonable braking and yanked the flaps up and the yoke back after touchdown. It was uneventful, though I can see how if you're used to screaming down final and floating on your ultra-long homebase runway, you could get in trouble here.

The FBO manager said the airplane accident had happened just a couple of hours earlier. A Comanche came in for a landing on 15 and he said he watched it float down the entire length of the runway without touching down, then continue off the runway, through the mangroves (neatly slicing a horizontal chunk out of them), flip, then settle in the shallow water. Why he didn't go around I'll never know. By the time the FBO manager arrived at water's edge the pilot was standing near the plane and was ok. Here's the news story.

We got a ride to a nice seafood place, had a great lunch, got dropped back off in town for ice cream, then walked about a half mile back to the airport. The hospitality of the folks at the airport and in town was great.

The takeoff was as uneventful as the landing. I performed a POH short-field takeoff and all was well. Another smooth flight back to KHWO, where the kids pulled out the bikes and rode around for an hour and a half on the airport perimeter as the sun was setting.

Attached is a photo of the plane parked at Everglades Airpark.

The only downsides to the day: I couldn't fit the bikes in the Archer, and the kids had trouble equalizing the pressure in their ears and they were in pain after both arrivals. Not sure what to do about that.

Not a bad day. Thanks all for the support in this thread.

 

[eman1200]

nice! where did you eat and how did you get there and was it good and what did y'all have and would you go back there again and was it worth going to X01 and what altitude did you fly there and back and I'm sure I have more questions but this is a good start thanks.

 

[Skip Miller]

9b1 Marlboro MA 1659 foot runway. Tight but very do-able in an Archer II. -Skip

 

[comanche pilot]

Sorry to here about the Comanche, looked like a nice one. As far as the kids ear pain goes, try and keep climbs and decents to 500fpm or less if able and have them chew gum, it may help as well. Glad to hear your flight went so well! Nothing's better than hopping out of the plane at a new destination with your family. That's what it's all about!

 

[AerialGhost]

It's good that you are being conservative and thinking it out. Your airplane will make it easily though. If you want to practice for it, I would find a short field near you instead of trying to a "short field" landing on a long runway. It's the sight picture you need to get used to, not necessarily the landing spot on the runway because the strip looks narrower and shorter.

Edit: Saw that you actually made the trip, and good job! I'm sure you realized it was easier than you thought it would be. I love short field landings because they are more challenging and it makes me feel like a real pilot.

As for the ear pressure situation there's not much you can do about that other than descend at a slower rate from cruise altitude like 500 fpm instead of 1000.

 

[MAKG1]

As for the ear pressure situation there's not much you can do about that other than descend at a slower rate from cruise altitude like 500 fpm instead of 1000.

While an Archer is not an HP aircraft, an HP technique would be useful here.

At 120 knots and 500 FPM, you descend at 2 miles per minute, or 4 miles per 1000 foot descent. So, if you're at 4000 AGL and descending to pattern altitude of 1000 AGL, start your descent 12 miles out, or slightly more if the downwind is on the near side of the airport.

A 120 knot descent into the 45 is usually manageable in an Archer, but if it's turbulent or someone is ahead of you in a 152, use 3 miles per 1000 feet at 90 knots.

If you're descending faster than 500 FPM at any point (including in the pattern), you've gotten behind your aircraft.

Then give the kids some chewing gum and ask them to unplug their mics (or put them on "CREW" if you have such an isolate button).

 

[steingar]

I remember flying over the Everglades and thinking about what would happen if the mill quit. The eventual answer was "nothing good". Glad your flight was pleasant and uneventful. Sucks for the other guy, but to fly to a 2600 foot strip you have to be able to land in 2600 feet.

 

[asechrest]

nice! where did you eat and how did you get there and was it good and what did y'all have and would you go back there again and was it worth going to X01 and what altitude did you fly there and back and I'm sure I have more questions but this is a good start thanks.

We ate at Havana Café on Chokoloskee Island (across the causeway from Everglades City) and we were picked up from the airport by the restaurant owner in her personal vehicle. The food was good; seafood with a Latin flair. The owner then dropped us into town by the ice cream shop.

We flew at 4,500 on the way over and 3,500 on the way back. My flight path took us near Dade-Collier Training and Transition Airport, which is basically a massive runway in the middle of the Everglades, once slated to be the largest airport in the world before environmental concerns killed the project. This was a potential emergency landing spot. Outside of that, I was scoping out the dirt roads that line the canals.

We will go back, but I'd like to figure out a way to have bikes for all. I'm going to see how easy it is to pull the front tires off the kids' bikes so they fit in the Archer. If we can fit those, then us adults can rent the bikes available at the FBO.

Re: the kids ears. I had them chewing gum, yawning, exercising their jaws, and I tried my descents around 250 - 500 FPM. Even so, they were in pain after landing on each leg. To the point of tears at X01. Strangely, the ascent appeared to have little affect, it was the descent, and the pain hit near or once we landed. It is surprisingly difficult to get a kid to understand how to clear their ears. I was met with blank stares when doing my utmost to describe how to do it and what it "sounded like" when your ears pop. My step son finally, for the first time ever, said "my ears just popped!" on the descent when returning home. So I'm thinking, eureka!, he's got it. Yet, still some mild ear pain after landing. My older step daughter never seemed to get her ears to pop. She has some allergies so maybe it's difficult for her. Would a decongestant help this at all?

Thanks.

 

[MAKG1]

Yes, a decongestant will help, but the real effective ones are hard to get ahold of as people like to cook them into meth.

It may make a kid hyper.